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Lidstrom and Osgood, do they get their numbers retired?


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#41 Vladiator

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 11:30 PM

Obviously agreed that Lid's number will be retired

Ozzie ... If he can lead to a repeat this year, then yes.

Feds ... Um if he finishes out his career with the Wings and gets the CS then maybe.

Shanny .. see Feds

Drapes ... Man I think that he is the hardest and easiest at times to consider. Only time will tell.

#42 Hank Dats 'N Homer

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 11:34 PM

QUOTE (Vladiator @ June 10, 2008 - 12:30AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Obviously agreed that Lid's number will be retired

Ozzie ... If he can lead to a repeat this year, then yes.

Feds ... Um if he finishes out his career with the Wings and gets the CS then maybe.

Shanny .. see Feds

Drapes ... Man I think that he is the hardest and easiest at times to consider. Only time will tell.


I love Drapes but i dunno if he is worthy or not. He plays his best day in and day out, that is not debatable, i just dont think his best is worth jersey retirement. You really have to have that Extra umph, and for forwards that means a great offenseive standout or great contribution to a team success that i dont think he really has. Dont get me wrong, hes a great player, just not jersey retirement great.

#43 91to-the-rafters

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 11:50 PM

QUOTE (eva unit zero @ June 10, 2008 - 12:13AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No players' numbers were retired in the 50s. Of numbers hanging from the JLA rafters, only Howe and Delvecchio were retired before 1990. Howe's in 1971 when he left the Wings. Shortly thereafter, Delvecchio's was retired and then later unretired, and then retired again in 1991. Lindsay, Abel, and Sawchuk were all retired in the 90s.

Whether the numbers were retired in '57, '71, 91, or '01, the fact is five players numbers were retired from that era. dry.gif
The only two players after Lidstrom who even get a look are Fedorov and Osgood. Shanahan left the club in the same fashion as Fedorov did, but wasn't villianized for it because he wasn't the team's best forward at the time. Fedorov had HOF stats when he left Detroit, and would be a lock had he stayed. The popular sentiment regarding him is enough to keep it from happening, but if he comes back that may change.
Osgood is the only player who has been important enough in the regular season and playoffs long-term AND is currently in good standing with the organization.
Draper is a career third liner who has had a couple notable seasons but has basically been a support player. If you hang Draper's number, you have to do the same for the following guys that he played with who played on the top two forward lines or defensive pairs, or were the starting goalie during a Cup season:
Larionov, Kozlov, Fedorov, Shanahan, Sandstrom, McCarty, Datsyuk, Zetterberg,
Holmstrom, Devereaux, Hull, Filppula, Franzen, Samuelsson, Konstantinov, Lidstrom, Fetisov, Murphy, Eriksson, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, Vernon, Osgood, Hasek.

In other words...please NEVER bring up Draper's name in the context of seriously suggesting jersey retirement. He's not that good or important to the team, never has been, and never will be.


I bring up Draper, as I said, not because of stats.... he just happens to represent the spirit of the team and organization for the past 12 seasons. Something all others that were mentioned only had a hand in, if that. Multiple Cups aren't won without a "career third liner" who brings a sense of purpose to the rest of the team. Draper has been that guy for more than a decade! People who don't think Draper is not that "good or important to the team" have seriously missed the picture of what has gone on for the past 12 years!


#44 C-TownWing

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 11:57 PM

QUOTE (eva unit zero @ June 9, 2008 - 10:46PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Osgood with Detroit already has one of the highest single-team wins records ever. After a full season next year, he will pass Mike Richter (NYR), Patrick Roy (Mtl), Turk Broda (Tor). That will leave only Jacques Plante (Mtl), Martin Brodeur (NJ), Terry Sawchuk (Det) and Tony Esposito (Chi) as guys who have won more games in a single uniform. Brodeur is the only one that could be considered out of reach for Osgood. If he finishes as the all-time wins leader on the Wings, and second only to Brodeur among single-team wins...how can he NOT get his number retired? For all the talk about 'Osgood played on a great team' there is no talk comparing the 90s/00s Wings to the 80s Oilers or Islanders, the 70s Canadiens, or any of the other 'best teams of all-time' that many of the other goaltenders on that list played behind. So it's unreasonable to say his numbers came from great teams when other "better " goaltenders who played on better teams didn't post Ozzie's numbers, isn't it?
HHOF lock...and if he keeps up his play (which is likely) then he should have his jersey hanging from the rafters.

I ABSOLUTELY HATE the "he's on a good team, therefore he's not that good" logic. It's beyond stupid, so it's nice to see someone else tear it down. Did Sawchuk not play for good teams at the peak of his career with the 50s Wings? The Habs guys like Dryden and Plante must REALLY suck, all those teams did was win Cup after Cup! Brodeur? He's garbage too, the Devils have been too good during his career. Bower, Roy, Parent...nope. Hasek was really good until he joined the Wings and started winning Cups. I guess that leaves Roberto Luongo is the best goalie ever. Gilles Meloche is a close 2nd.

In all seriousness, Chris Osgood is, at worst, the 2nd best goaltender in Wings history by any objective measure out there. He deserves consideration for sure.

Slightly different way to look at things: the early 50s Wings won 4 Cups, and the retirements of every number besides Yzerman (1, 7, 9, 10, 12--5 players) came about at least in part because of that run. Why is it then so unreasonable to take four players from the run of the last 15 years? In my perfect world, that's Yzerman, Lidstrom, Osgood, Fedorov.

#45 VM1138

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 12:00 AM

Retiring numbers is supposed to be a hugely special event. I do think that this generation is the best since the 50s. And since the 50s generation is draped all over the roof of the Joe, it's understandable that this generation will be equally represented (what....4 retired numbers)?

I was thinking of this earlier. The 90s-00s is more of a "Glory Days" than the 1950s, except for in number of Cups won. We're witnessing amazing history.

I think Lids gets retired, which would put this generation up to two retired numbers. I expect Datsyuk and Zetterberg to be retired IF they keep up their play and play their entire careers with Detroit. That would make 4. Seems about right.

I love Ozzie, too, but he hasn't been the most amazing player on the Wings the past 15 years.
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#46 omnipotent_hudler

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 12:04 AM

ozzie's number should at the very least be discontinued for a couple of decades if not retired
he's been a big part of every cup besides '02 and a big part of some of the earlier runs in the 90's

#47 redwingsfan04

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 12:26 AM

i say retire Ozzy and draper and LIDS!!! the caps represent the most important!

#48 Reilly

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 12:31 AM

Fedorov is among the all-time leading Red Wings in total points. Numerous trophies and, as of now, the best Russian to ever play in the NHL. His number is going up. His career was basically over when he signed with Anaheim.

Lidstrom, yes.

Osgood, No. Not right now anyway. He needs like a Vezina trophy and/or another Cup.

Shanahan, No. His best seasons were before Detroit. Plus he "always wanted to play for New York." Bye Shanny.

Edited by Reilly, 10 June 2008 - 12:41 AM.


#49 Shaman

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 12:38 AM

As I said, Ozzie needs atleast another cup, maybe 2. If he can get us 2 more cups in 3 years, 30 will be his forever and ever... If he gets one and a CS, than its his. Other than that i dont see it happening.
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#50 Kira

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 01:02 AM

Nick - this is a no-brainer. If he doesn't get his number retired, something is seriously wrong.

Ozzie - I don't know about retiring his number, but I can see him having a legit argument for the HOF.
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#51 Faust222

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 01:51 AM

It takes more than personal accolades to get your number retired by the wings. Look at Mickey Redmond. First Red Wing to score 50 goals in a season and he's not up there. Every number in the JLA rafters contributed not only to advancement of the organization but of the NHL. Lidstrom broke through the glass ceiling that that was put over the heads of European captains, in addition to all his accomplishments for the organization. So outside of Yzerman, Lids is the only one qualifies from this generation. Fedorov is a possible for being instrumental in the European movement, and for being the only player ever to win the Hart and Selke trophies in the same year. His leaving shouldn't really effect it, neither Gordie or Terry played for the wings exclusively. But, I personally think Feds doesn't want to see his name and number up there. If he did he wouldn't have left in the first place. And, if his number is raised to applause of 30,000 I think he'd realize the hypocrisy.

And Oz: I love him, and I say this not out of disrespect, but what has he done for the game? He's got maybe 4 more seasons to make his case.

#52 Reilly

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 02:05 AM

QUOTE (Faust222 @ June 10, 2008 - 02:51AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But, I personally think Feds doesn't want to see his name and number up there. If he did he wouldn't have left in the first place.


Fedorov wanted to stay in Detroit. He still has Michigan ties. It's not a matter of whether or not he left or how he left, it's what he did while he was here. To suggest his accolades are somehow tarnished because he left for another team in the twilight of his career is laughable. He did what Howe, Sawchuk, Kelly, Lindsay, and Abel also did. And no one is questioning any of those players retired numbers.

#53 Doggy

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 02:46 AM

Does Lidstrom get his number retired? How can that be a serious question?
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#54 CaliWingsNut

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 03:31 AM

Funny all this talk of the names possibly going up into the rafters, when if it wasn't for his split time with other teams, the next name going up there would have been Chelios. Since his arrival in detroit he's been a contender and while now he's turning to a support role... his only career goals would be defeating things achieved already by names in the rafters.

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#55 PaVel DaTsYuK fan13

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 05:29 AM

Lids, yes.

Ozzie - Only if he breaks Sawchucks red wings wins record.

#56 LIDDYGIBBY5

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 05:42 AM

QUOTE (Hank Dats 'N Homer @ June 10, 2008 - 12:34AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I love Drapes but i dunno if he is worthy or not. He plays his best day in and day out, that is not debatable, i just dont think his best is worth jersey retirement. You really have to have that Extra umph, and for forwards that means a great offenseive standout or great contribution to a team success that i dont think he really has. Dont get me wrong, hes a great player, just not jersey retirement great.


Please tell me that you didn't just say that Draper doesn't make contributions to the team that make them successful. This team didn't start winning cups again until Yzerman decided to become a defensive stud. Players contribute in more ways than scoring. Draper has been key to the four Cup teams he has been part of. He centered the second most popular line in Red Wings history. He has been one of the best face off men in the league for a long time. He has been this teams best penalty killer for as long as he has played. There is more than offensive stats as a reason to retire a number.
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#57 LIDDYGIBBY5

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 05:48 AM

QUOTE (Reilly @ June 10, 2008 - 03:05AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fedorov wanted to stay in Detroit. He still has Michigan ties. It's not a matter of whether or not he left or how he left, it's what he did while he was here. To suggest his accolades are somehow tarnished because he left for another team in the twilight of his career is laughable. He did what Howe, Sawchuk, Kelly, Lindsay, and Abel also did. And no one is questioning any of those players retired numbers.


If Feds wanted to stay, why did he take less money to leave? Turning your back on a franchise so you can be the #1 guy on a team doesn't get your number retired. That is just my opinion.
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#58 LivingtheDream

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 06:01 AM

Take a look at the rafters and if you don't know some of these guys, then look them up. Now realize this isn't something just any fan favorite earns. It is way beyond that. You have to not only be a great Wing, you have to be great in the NHL. Top tier. Lids passes muster no problem and is fully worthy of hockey immortality. Osgood's not there yet. He was fantastic this year and yes has more playoff wins/wings wins..., but he has been more of a supporting cast member than a true hockey God.

Please people, don't cheapen it. Any way, it's up to people who get this.

#59 betterREDthandead

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 06:09 AM

Once again: Simply the fact that we have to debate Ozzie's qualifications, that alone disqualifies him for retiring the number. When a number goes up to the rafters, there should be absolutely no doubt to all watching that the honor is deserved.
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#60 Probert 5 For Fighting

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 06:15 AM

QUOTE (eva unit zero @ June 10, 2008 - 12:19AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He is a HOF lock. You don't win 400 games (which will happen either next year or the year after) in the NHL, as well as start for two Cups, and NOT make the Hall. Brodeur was considered a HOF lock when he had 324 wins, two Cups, and no Vezinas. Why doesn't 363 wins, two Cups, and no Vezinas put Ozzie in the same seat? Brodeur's team has been just as good as Osgood's; better defensively, in fact.
How come Osgood with comparable career accomplishments is a 'maybe if he wins another Cup' yet Brodeur was an absolute lock?
And as far as Ozzie's GAA, in many seasons he has either lead the league or been among the league leaders in GAA. Say what you want about 'dead puck' era...but his GAA is still better than most guys to play in the same period of time.


He's not, but keep trying to tell yourself that a lot of wins ensures a spot in the HOF. The difference between Brodeur and Ozzie is that Brodeur has always been a bonafide #1 goalie who backstopped his team nearly every game of the whole season and put together some record-setting playoff runs. And unlike Detroit, New Jersey has always been an average or weak offensive team whose success has always been contingent on Brodeur's play in goal. You're also talking about a guy whose twice had a GAA under 1.9, and under 2.18 five other times. He has way more career SOs. His career save percentage is 6 points higher.

And really, playing with the stats is getting you nowhere - since Martin HAS won THREE Vezinas recently and could have won a few more if Hasek wasn't setting the league on fire back in the day.

Outside of 1996, Osgood has never led the league in GAA playing as the #1 goalie. I don't know where you get your numbers from. He led the league this year, but he was splitting time - y'know, like all great HOF goalies do. The only other times he was near the top of the league were 1998 and 04 in St Louis. If you're saying Ozzie's GAA was better than most average goalies of the time, than yes, you may be correct. That's exactly what Ozzie has been - above average. His GAA was nowhere near the GAAs of guys like Hasek, Brodeur, Roy, Belfouretc during the dead puck era(97-04). Hell, Roman Cechmanek produced more memorable seasons back then.

The bottom line is, you're trying to build a case for Osgood based solely on his wins and how good Detroit has been. Sorry, but that's not enough. Manny Legace was producing the same sort of wins and stats Ozzie was recently, and probably could have produced the same career numbers if he in Ozzie's spot. In fact, a number of guys could have. And point out to me how many HOF goaltenders were dropped to WAIVERS in the prime of their careers. He is regarded as a good-not-great goalie leaguewide. If you don't want to believe it, that's fine, but I can assure you nobody who votes in the Hall agrees with you.

Edited by Probert 5 For Fighting, 10 June 2008 - 06:28 AM.






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