Higher All Time Ranking: Yzerman or Lidstrom?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Was Steve better than those players based on numbers and stats or because we're Red Wings fans and we've basically canonized him?

I have the same argument with Yankees fans over Derek Jeter.

He was better because of stats and dominance.

Longetivity. Sakic is more durable player.

Of course that I like Steve Yzerman more, he is my most favourite player! But all bias aside, Sakic is slightly better due to his durability imho.

lol Coffey over Hasek..complete joke. Coffey was brutal in his own end. Definitely not even top20 defenseman while Hasek is top5 goalie of all time. 6 Vezinas 2 Pearsons 2 Harts..no contest.

Steve Yzerman is one of the best players I have ever seen, I love him. I understand all of us here are Red Wings fans, try not to be biased. Nicklas Lidstrom is one of the best defenseman ever, there is no question he was/is better hockey player than Steve Yzerman.

Sakic's longevity is going downhill after the injuries last year. Also, don't forget that he was never as dominant as Stevie was in his prime. Sakic never scored 60 goals and 150 points in a season.

[Reds4Life 51]

Sakic's longevity is going downhill after the injuries last year. Also, don't forget that he was never as dominant as Stevie was in his prime. Sakic never scored 60 goals and 150 points in a season.

That is true, Sakic and Steve Y are so close I usually flip a coin

Sakic has Hart trophy, Steve does not..

Sakic at the age of 37 scored 100 points..Steve Y only played 52 games and scored 48 points..so longetivity puts Sakic slightly above Steve Y in my book. But it is very hard to determine which player was better.

Edited June 12, 2008 by Reds4Life

[MajorWingNut 0]

Yes.

Except I would listen to debate about Stevie being better than Messier.

Not to mention Stevie also gave up alot of personal stats to better his defensive game for the good of the team !

Edited June 12, 2008 by MajorWingNut

[eva unit zero 271]

That is true, Sakic and Steve Y are so close I usually flip a coin

Sakic has Hart trophy, Steve does not..

Sakic at the age of 37 scored 100 points..Steve Y only played 52 games and scored 48 points..so longetivity puts Sakic slightly above Steve Y in my book. But it is very hard to determine which player was better.

The major difference being that Sakic's best years came outside of the primes of Gretzky and Lemieux. Yzerman WOULD have a Hart trophy if not for that.

Sakic also didn't receive a freak injury when he was just breaking out; Yzerman, as I have said, had his knee wrecked by a freak accident and still dominated the league afterwards. All of his 'durability problems' were because of that initial injury; he would LIKELY be the second leading scorer all-time had it never occurred. Seriously; he played seventeen seasons after wrecking his knee and missed quite a few games. His speed was also diminished because of it. Yzerman, in an extra 200 games and with a good knee, could easily have scored the 133 points that would have placed him second in points. The 109 goals might have been a bit less likely, but still very possible, and 187 assists would have been very doable. The fact that he did all of that while playing great defense and suffering a nagging injury makes him GREATER.

Yzerman played the majority of his best seasons without any legitimate first line talent playing with him. Sakic played his best years with Sundin and Nolan, and later Forsberg, Hejduk, Tanguay, and Drury. Not to mention the fact that Sakic has typically paid far less attention to defense than Yzerman did after the age of 29; Sakic has always been offense-first, while Yzerman, in his offensive prime, changed to defense-first.

What people often forget; the first season Yzerman played with a defense-first approach was 1994-95. The year before that, he scored 82 points in 58 games, a pace that would have seen him finish with 119 points over a full season. And had Yzerman remained healthy, Fedorov wouldn't have scored 120...so Stevie Y would have been second in scoring.

Had Yzerman continued the take an offense-first approach, who knows how many points he would have scored at age 37?

That's the thing; people like to make comparisons with Yzerman based just on points. Yzerman was ALWAYS about more than offense...I think the fact that Bowman changed his focus in 1994 blinds people to the fact that YZERMAN WAS ALWAYS GOOD DEFENSIVELY. Just ask Bryan Trottier about Yzerman's rookie year; he'll tell you Yzerman was one of the league's best defensive centers in his first season.

[egroen 384]

In '89 when Yzerman placed 12th for the Selke, he had 8 votes which tied him with three other players. Carbonneau won that year with 222 votes -- so it is safe to say there was a significant drop-off between first and 12th. There is not a single year where he received any votes at all between his rookie year and '94 when he was voted 3rd. Looking at Yzerman's points over his career, it is very obvious when he started actually playing defense.

Gretzky beat Yzerman 3 times in Selke voting during Yzerman's "offensive" years... I just do not think you can assume Yzerman was playing "elite" defense during those seasons. Messier was also consistently beating him for Selke votes.

Hart voting it also a bit troublesome for Yzerman, if you want to automatically consider him the "3rd best of his era":

Top Ten Votes for Hart

'87 - 7th

'88 - 4th

'89 - 3rd

'90 - 7th

'92 - 7th

'93 - 8th

'00 - 8th

That is only two top 5 finishes.

That is consistently really, really good, but it is quite a tier below the others I have mentioned.

Sakic also didn't receive a freak injury when he was just breaking out; Yzerman, as I have said, had his knee wrecked by a freak accident and still dominated the league afterwards. All of his 'durability problems' were because of that initial injury; he would LIKELY be the second leading scorer all-time had it never occurred. Seriously; he played seventeen seasons after wrecking his knee and missed quite a few games. His speed was also diminished because of it. Yzerman, in an extra 200 games and with a good knee, could easily have scored the 133 points that would have placed him second in points. The 109 goals might have been a bit less likely, but still very possible, and 187 assists would have been very doable. The fact that he did all of that while playing great defense and suffering a nagging injury makes him GREATER.

There are very few hockey players that would not have an asterick next to their stats stating: *Injury -- Who knows how good he would be without it.

Lemieux and Orr may well have been better hockey players than Gretzky, and who knows how much more they would have accomplished without their serious injuries... but they didn't, and Gretzky did. Hence, Gretzky should always appear higher than them on all-time lists.

I still salivate thinking all that Konstantinov could have accomplished. But I could never put him higher than Stevens on all-time list, despite my firm belief Vladdie was a better player.

Edited June 12, 2008 by egroen

[egroen 384]

Sakic never scored 60 goals and 150 points in a season.

However, Sakic was 2nd for the Art Ross scoring title in '01;

2nd for the Selke;

and won the Hart and Pearson that year;

with 54 goals and 118 pts -- in the DEAD PUCK ERA

There are a lot of reasons many have Sakic ahead of Yzerman... though I personally have him just behind.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I'm not touching this thread with a 10-foot pole. How do you decide between your two children?

While I can see an argument for both, its just impossible to say with any form of accuracy which of the two should be ranked higher. While I'd probably give the nod to Stevie Y for the all-around player/Captain he was, Nick's playing ability is beyond amazing.

Whatever.

[eva unit zero 271]

In '89 when Yzerman placed 12th for the Selke, he had 8 votes which tied him with three other players. There is not a single year where he received any votes at all between his rookie year and '94 when he was voted 3rd. Looking at Yzerman's points over his career, it is very obvious when he started actually playing defense.

Gretzky beat Yzerman 3 times in Selke voting during Yzerman's "offensive" years... I just do not think you can assume Yzerman was playing "elite" defense during those seasons. Messier was also consistently beating him for Selke votes.

Hart voting it also a bit troublesome for Yzerman, if you want to automatically consider him the "3rd best of his era":

Top Ten Votes for Hart

'87 - 7th

'88 - 4th

'89 - 3rd

'90 - 7th

'92 - 7th

'93 - 8th

'00 - 8th

That is only two top 5 finishes.

That is consistently really, really good, but it is quite a tier below the others I have mentioned.

Yzerman is the only players to have two consecutive seasons where he achieved all of the following marks:

Lead team in goals, assists, and points.

Scored 50+ goals.

Scored 100+ points.

Finished top 20 in Selke voting, with at least one first-place vote.

Furthermore, without Gretzky and Lemieux, if you assume the voting places in the same order, Yzerman would have finished with several more First and Second team selections.

Another statement of note...both of Yzerman's primary linemates during the 93-94 season, Ray Sheppard and Keith Primeau, finished top-ten in position voting at the end of the season for the first time in their careers. This is, incidentally, the only occurence where both of Yzerman's linemates achieved this feat. Yet for the first time in seven seasons, Yzerman did not finish top six in center voting. While there was obviously some lost votes due to injury, Yzerman scored well enough to finish 15 points ahead of Geoff Sanderson, who finished seventh in voting. Igor Larionov (60 points in 56 games) and Mark Messier (84 points in 76 games) tied for ninth place in center voting; Yzerman obviously outperformed both players by a considerable margin. Did Yzerman get shafted by the injury (notice, Larionov only played two more games and scored much less) or did he get shafted by the perception that his teammates were top notch and therefore, after several years of being an elite center, he was now the product of his environment?

And as far as Gretzky's Selke votes are concerned...Gretzky never received a first place vote in his career, and never received more than one vote in a season. That alone speaks to the fact it was more about one person paying homage to 'The Great One' than Gretzky actually playing defense worthy of Selke voting. Kind of like voters voting for Brian McGrattan for the Lady Byng.

[egroen 384]

Concerning Yzerman as "third best" of his generation...

If Gretzky and Lemieux ceased to exist he would have one Hart and one scoring title.

You would also have to get rid of Messier, Jagr, Lindros, Fedorov, Forsberg and Sakic for Yzerman to see any more... all of these guys were considered "best in the world" at one point or another -- Yzerman never was.

Everything you have listed just confirms that he was an amazing player, on both ends of the ice. I have him as a top 35 player of ALL TIME, which is incredible. But I think Lidstrom is a top 20 player, all time... few would contest he is not at or better than the "top 5" mark for defensemen ever. The same can not be said about Yzerman for centers, and especially for forwards.

Every argument I see for placing him higher involves a lot of wiggling, "what-ifs" and statements like "He was an amazing leader; Had great heart; Played through injuries; etc..." That should be taken into account, but it also applies to a lot, if not most, of the greatest hockey players ever.

I'm not sure if there was ever a player who played his entire career without serious injury and with consistently great linemates.

[egroen 384]

And as far as Gretzky's Selke votes are concerned...Gretzky never received a first place vote in his career, and never received more than one vote in a season. That alone speaks to the fact it was more about one person paying homage to 'The Great One' than Gretzky actually playing defense worthy of Selke voting. Kind of like voters voting for Brian McGrattan for the Lady Byng.

There is no question in my mind that Gretzky had the talent and means to play great defense. He just never did. The same goes for Yzerman during his offensive peak.

Guys like Sakic and Fedorov actually played great defense at the same time as their offensive peak.

[WingsZR2 1]

It’s a wash. Lids and Stevie played different positions and were joined together for quite a few impressive years. Steve Yzerman gave his blood, sweat, tears, heart, and soul to the city of Detroit and the Red Wings. He carried us from the depths of the league standings to the cream of the crop, all while never taking a damn bit of credit for himself. The man played through more pain than I could ever wish on my worst enemy. I will forever link my love of the Wings to him, and will never forget what he did for us night in and night out.

Lids, well, he’s the perfect hockey player. He plays the game the way everyone else wishes they could. He will end it all as one of the greatest D men and will constantly be compared to Bobby Orr. Lids became the first European captain to win the Cup, shedding label after label because of where he was born. He makes everyone around him better because his work ethic mirrors #19.

The last 20 plus years of been nothing short of amazing and we shouldn’t cheapen that by drawing a line in the sand and having to make a choice as to who we place higher on the pedestal.

We’ve witnessed The Captain and Mr. Norris, and have seen what they’ve brought to the table. In twenty years they will still be remembered as instrumental pieces to the overall puzzle of the Detroit Red Wings, and for that I salute them.

Edited June 12, 2008 by WingsZR2

[Opie 308]

It’s a wash. Lids and Stevie played different positions and were joined together for quite a few impressive years. Steve Yzerman gave his blood, sweat, tears, heart, and soul to the city of Detroit and the Red Wings. He carried us from the depths of the league standings to the cream of the crop, all while never taking a damn bit of credit for himself. The man played through more pain than I could ever wish on my worst enemy. I will forever link my love of the Wings to him, and will never forget what he did for us night in and night out.

Lids, well, he’s the perfect hockey player. He plays the game the way everyone else wishes they could. He will end it all as one of the greatest D men and will constantly be compared to Bobby Orr. Lids became the first European captain to win the Cup, shedding label after label because of where he was born. He makes everyone around him better because his work ethic mirrors #19.

The last 20 plus years of been nothing short of amazing and we shouldn’t cheapen that by drawing a line in the sand and having to make a choice as to who we place higher on the pedestal.

We’ve witnessed The Captain and Mr. Norris, and have seen what they’ve brought to the table. In twenty years they will still be remembered as instrumental pieces to the overall puzzle of the Detroit Red Wings, and for that I salute them.

And do you know what is even ******* crazier:

The Wings have 2 guys ready to take over, much like Lids was ready as Yzerman was still the man, until Lids steps away. I am hoping the Red Sox are watching and build an Org like Detroit, bring the youth up, give them great role models and then eventually they become role models!!!

This org has started to become everything we think of when we think Stevie Y. His fingerprint will be on this team for years to come. Who knows maybe that is the Illitch's finger print not his, or Devellano's or whoever elses. The point is still the same, this team has become the picture of class, hard work, and dedication to the team.

Look at guys like Draper, could he be a 2nd liner elsewhere sure, does he want to go anywhere else, HELL NO!!!!

[RedArmy 4]

if Lidstrom leads the team to 1 more cup, it will be a toss up. If he leads the wings to 2 more cups, it is him then hands down

[Opie 308]

if Lidstrom leads the team to 1 more cup, it will be a toss up. If he leads the wings to 2 more cups, it is him then hands down

Not trying to say anything about who is better or higher ranked, but to counter prove your argument, Lids has won more cups without Yzerman than the reverse!

[deker 0]

Someone has already said it, but when he was still playing, Yzerman was quoted as saying Lidstrom is the Wings' best player. And I know his belief hasn't changed based on recent comments.

No question that Lidstrom is the better player. But Yzerman seemed to be able to will this team to win at times. And to play like he did in 2002 on basically one good leg pretty much defines what he means to the Wings. Lidstrom is the higher all timed ranked player and is the captain. But in terms of leading the team, he still has a long, long way to go before he could ever be thought of as The Captain.

[Lidstrom5 D-Man 0]

Well...

I don't think I read this anywhere but could Lidstrom have taken the 2002 to the Cup like Yzerman did? I mean, how many egos were there on that team that year? Hasek, HULL, Fedorov...Yzerman was a captain's captain. Leader of leaders.

Nick is just a frickin' stud on the blue line with the hardware to back it up.

It's obvious who's better.

Thank goodness they were both Red Wings!

[Electrophile 3,554]

We've won a Stanley Cup without Steve, proving that a team captained and dominated by Europeans can in fact do it. Could we have won a Stanley Cup without Nick?

Therein lies who truly is/was more valuable to this team's successes.

[octopusonice 0]

It's hard for me to answer this because I only have two jerseys: #5 and #19. In my mind and speaking from the heart, I like both of them equally. I don't want to choose.

If you are talking about Xs and Os, I would give the nod to Lidstrom, meaning that Lidstrom is better at being a defenseman than Yzerman was as a center.

However, the person who inspired me to be a Red Wings fan is Stevie Y. One of the greatest games I will ever see on TV was when he hit that slapshot to beat the Blues 1-0 in 1996 in the 7th game.

The best way that I can describe that game is that it was as though God was up there talking to the Red Wings and Blues players before the game and telling all these players that they only had one game left to play in their lives and to make it a good one. I didn't know if anyone would get the puck in the net that night.

This is going to sound odd, but I once had a dream a few years ago that I played for the Red Wings and was walking to the locker room. Stevie Y was there and asked me if I was going to come back next season. I was going to ask him the same thing, but instead, I just said yes. In my dreams I knew better; that Stevie Y asks the questions around here.

[eva unit zero 271]

Someone has already said it, but when he was still playing, Yzerman was quoted as saying Lidstrom is the Wings' best player. And I know his belief hasn't changed based on recent comments.

The difference being?

Yzerman made those comments in the late 90s or the 2000s...when Nick WAS the best player on the team.

Yzerman has also said Sergei Fedorov was the most talented player he's ever seen play in person.

The fact of the matter is...Yzerman's prime was over by the time Nick Lidstrom was the second best defenseman on the team. So the 'Lidstrom was the best player while Yzerman was with the team' doesn't work, because the same can be said in reverse.

[bellarina 1]

So soon they forget...

In the beginning Stevie did it alone...

Someone mentioned the "Deadthings" and it was so...Til Stevie.

[Electrophile 3,554]

So soon they forget...

In the beginning Stevie did it alone...

Someone mentioned the "Deadthings" and it was so...Til Stevie.

That was me. But I don't think anyone here is discounting what Steve did for this team nor has anyone forgotten what he's done with this team. Is he so saintly that no one can debate whether or not someone was better? I don't think anyone here has at any time tried to say that Steve was a sub-par hockey player.

[egroen 384]

In the beginning Stevie did it alone... Someone mentioned the "Deadthings" and it was so...Til Stevie.

Were you watching the Wings then, though?

Yzerman alone did not bring the team out of the muck... in fact, there was a lot of talk of him being traded, but Demers got axed instead. Fedorov, Sheppard, Coffey, Lidstrom and the Russians were all big pieces of that puzzle. It was ten years before the Wings were even a legitimate contender.

Edited June 13, 2008 by egroen

[C-TownWing 0]

Someone has already said it, but when he was still playing, Yzerman was quoted as saying Lidstrom is the Wings' best player. And I know his belief hasn't changed based on recent comments.

Aside from the thing eva pointed out (that the quote was from well after Yzerman's prime), would you really expect Steve freaking Yzerman to say "*I'M* the best player, of course!" That's just not in his DNA, period.

[Opie 308]

Aside from the thing eva pointed out (that the quote was from well after Yzerman's prime), would you really expect Steve freaking Yzerman to say "*I'M* the best player, of course!" That's just not in his DNA, period.

Exactly, if Steve Yzerman ever came out and said I am the best we would all faint and then check him into a hospital for a full eval!!!

[egroen 384]

Going off memory:

Orr said Howe was the best.

Howe said Gretzky was the best.

Gretzky said Howe was the best.... and Lemieux.

Lemieux said Gretzky was the best.