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Goaltender equipment to change

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Equipment size  

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Guest Crymson
Does Giggy use pads that are too big? No, they fit perfectly within the rules. Could he get the same result with smaller pads? Yes. Giggy isn't good side to side, but he is one of the most positionally sound goalltenders the game has ever seen, that cannot be denied.

His enormous equipment allows him to be positionally sound, as he hardly needs to move in most cases to cover the appropriate area of the net. Were he to have smaller equipment, he'd

In any event, you are wrong. Maximums on pad size were reduced after the lockout, and Giguere went from unbeatable to beatable. What do you think made him so unbeatable in the '03 playoffs?

Smaller pads means more movement for Giguere, and he just can't handle that.

It's true that Giguere's pads are within legal limits. The point, which you seem to be continually missing or ignoring, is that the NHL feels that the maximum is unfairly high and that this gives goaltenders who use the biggest equipment possible an unfair advantage. Hence, they are considering lowering the maximum.

Yes, Giguere plays with legal equipment now. What on earth is your point given the context of the discussion? You've said outright that these changes will show people that goaltenders like Giguere aren't all about pads, yet you're arguing that fact as opposed to waiting and seeing if it's correct. That's a bit of an oxy-moron in your behavior in this discussion.

Get it?

EDIT: Asking a goaltender how old his equipment is going to bring about deceptive answers. Most goalies I know have kept the same equipment they used in their last year of competitive play. However, when I was playing, even the guys in Jr.'s would get new stuff (save the chest protector) every year in order to match team colors. It's no different than a player getting a new lid or, stick, or mitts. Even at that, how often do you change your gloves? I do about every other season at least, skates every 3-4 years, helmet every 3-5 years, elbow pads never, pants 3-4 years, shin guards 1-3 years, and shoulder pads well, who actually wears those anyhow?

Legace got new pads this year. What do you think made him an all-star? He admitted as much that the changes in his pads improved his play immensely.

Edited by Crymson

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Guest CaliWingsNut

Anyone who thinks that goaltending equipment hasn't gotten larger, and isn't oversized only needs to watch this... about 50 times.

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His enormous equipment allows him to be positionally sound, as he hardly needs to move in most cases to cover the appropriate area of the net. Were he to have smaller equipment, he'd

In any event, you are wrong. Maximums on pad size were reduced after the lockout, and Giguere went from unbeatable to beatable. What do you think made him so unbeatable in the '03 playoffs?

Smaller pads means more movement for Giguere, and he just can't handle that.

It's true that Giguere's pads are within legal limits. The point, which you seem to be continually missing or ignoring, is that the NHL feels that the maximum is unfairly high and that this gives goaltenders who use the biggest equipment possible an unfair advantage. Hence, they are considering lowering the maximum.

Yes, Giguere plays with legal equipment now. What on earth is your point given the context of the discussion? You've said outright that these changes will show people that goaltenders like Giguere aren't all about pads, yet you're arguing that fact as opposed to waiting and seeing if it's correct. That's a bit of an oxy-moron in your behavior in this discussion.

Get it?

Legace got new pads this year. What do you think made him an all-star? He admitted as much that the changes in his pads improved his play immensely.

I'm not missing that point whatsoever. You are blowing it out of proportion. The NHL thinks something needs to be done, but the changes they make won't be anything drastic, and as history has proven they won't have any significant lasting effect.

And I'm sure Giggy's drop in play had nothing to do with the long SCF's run, in a losing effort, it had to be his pads getting unnoticably smaller. But Giggy seemed to bounce back just fine last season, didn't he? Just a refresher, he was top 10 in every major statistical category among starters. Yeah, it's all in his pads. :rolleyes:

The point you are totally ignoring is that goalies are simply better today than EVER before. Why is that so hard for you to come to grips with?

How is my argument in any manner oxymoronic? Just so we are clear, I'm stating that goaltenders aren't raised to an elite level just because of their pads. You are saying that is exactly what is happening. I've never said once that changing the pads would have any drastic effect on the goaltenders in question. So again, how is that at all oxymoronic? I mean, I see that you didn't know how to correctly spell the word, but do you not know what it means either?

As for Legace, his pads didn't make him an All-Star. He was the best player on a terrible team. If you really want to look at things from a scientific point of view, then take the actual size added to the pads, and do some statistical research on that. I am sure you will find that the changes made were minuscule. If anything, the change to the pads gave Legace the mental edge, and as we all know, goaltenders need that edge to be successful. Just like Legace said, he felt his pads helped him out, but again the changes made didn't make much of a difference, physically.

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By that logic, future drafts will push for sumo wrestlers and siamese twins for goalie talent. Smaller goalies in their entirety will be completely phased out - why bother with them when you can get someone who covers 98% of the net just by sitting there? People bring up this goalie equipment tweaking as if it'll miraculously solve the scoring 'issue'. IMO all it'll do is result inmore larger goalies who cover more of the net, and then you're back to the exact same problem only now it's raw size instead of the equipment. This whole issue is little more than the league's way of 'easing into' the adoption of larger nets, at which point the sport will become nothing more than basketball on ice and ergo completely unwatchable.

Of course a GM is going to pick a larger goalie of equal skill over a smaller goalie. It happens to skaters every day.

But the thought of getting a fat goalie just to take up more space is ridiculous. In fact, wasn't there a book out there about this exact thing? They got a guy to wear a body suit so that his size was equivelant to a 1000 lbs man. He got shelled in a practice run.

You still have to be skilled, but I'm not going to cry because goalies like Legace or Osgood have to shave down their gear and their GAA might go up because of it.

I hate cheaters and that's basically what goalies have been doing for a while now.

I do agree that with the natural progression in people getting larger that eventually the nets will have to increase too.

And I don't believe that you'll ever see basketball on ice by giving shooters a fraction of more space to shoot on.

In fact, it can be proven. Look at the 80's. There was probably twice as much cubic space to shoot on in during that era and the average goals-per-game got up in the mid 8's. So that means on average, you're seeing a 5-3 hockey game. Is that really outrageous? No.

The same would happen now. If shooters suddenly had the same cubic space to shoot on as Gretzky and Orr had, you would probably see the GPG jump in the 6's or 7's. 4-3, 5-2, 6-1, 4-2. You'll still get the occassional 2-1 game (probably Minnesota vs Boston ;)) just like you'll see an 8-5 game now an then.

My biggest concern is that in a lot of the higher scoring games this year it was only one team doing the scoring. I think that close to 75% of the games this year ended with one opponent scoring 2 goals or less.

That's what the NHL is trying to do.

And remember, that also means an increase in scoring chances, which to some are just as exciting as goals.

Everyone wins.

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Guest Crymson
I'm not missing that point whatsoever. You are blowing it out of proportion. The NHL thinks something needs to be done, but the changes they make won't be anything drastic, and as history has proven they won't have any significant lasting effect.

And I'm sure Giggy's drop in play had nothing to do with the long SCF's run, in a losing effort, it had to be his pads getting unnoticably smaller. But Giggy seemed to bounce back just fine last season, didn't he? Just a refresher, he was top 10 in every major statistical category among starters. Yeah, it's all in his pads. :rolleyes:

Come to think of it, I think I lost faith in any sort of discussion with you after having seen you vehemently defend the notion that we should have traded prospects like Filppula for Brad Richards and in doing so locked up his $7m+ salary for seasons to come.

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The only reason I make any mention of goalies being better today than ever before is because people aren't giving them any credit. Especially guys like Giggy. It really bugs me that these people say Giggy is good because of his pads. Do them help? Sure. But in the same manner that smaller pads help Ozzie. That is, they cater to his style of play. If pads are within the rules, what's the problem?

As I said before, the NHL has this idea that coaches won't find a way to overcome any rule changes made, including size of pads. Just like they found a way to snuff out the larger offensive zone, and totally kill the legal two-line pass.

As for cheating, does every goaltender do it? That's debatable, but I wouldn't doubt it. But don't be so naive to think that skaters don't do the exact same thing. The only real difference is goaltenders equipment is much more closely monitored.

I'm not trying to say they should change the rules on goaltenders pads if it can make the game better. I'm just saying that it won't make the game any more exciting, or 'better'. It won't make any dramatic effect on scoring, as if it actually makes any difference in the way a goalie plays, teams will simply adapt defensively.

I don't think the NHL can increase scoring very much, consistently. There are other things that could really improve the flow and more 'casual fan friendly' than making changes to goaltenders pads. Things like touch-up icing, or getting rid of the instigator rule to allow more fighting, these are the things that are going to grow the game in the U.S., not the width, or height of a leg pad.

EDIT: Asking a goaltender how old his equipment is going to bring about deceptive answers. Most goalies I know have kept the same equipment they used in their last year of competitive play. However, when I was playing, even the guys in Jr.'s would get new stuff (save the chest protector) every year in order to match team colors. It's no different than a player getting a new lid or, stick, or mitts. Even at that, how often do you change your gloves? I do about every other season at least, skates every 3-4 years, helmet every 3-5 years, elbow pads never, pants 3-4 years, shin guards 1-3 years, and shoulder pads well, who actually wears those anyhow?

Just because people aren't falling over themselves complimenting goalies doesn't mean they aren't being given credit. In fact I would argue that the fact that we talk about goalies as often that we do that we have a tremendous amount of respect for thier game.

That's the way it always is with any sports league though. The league and it's rules are always playing catch-up to what the players and coaches are doing. If it were any other way it would be on a video game. (even though there are exploits there too)

Why bring skater's cheating into a goaltender thread? Trying to deflect the issue to skaters doesn't change the fact that there are issues with the rules on goaltender equipment. I agree that 99.9% of them are cheating as well however. Also deflecting to no-touching icing and the instigator rule are also outside of this thread.

Honestly, I believe making positional goalies be more precise with thier angles and reactive goalies be quicker will add a certain level of excitement to a 0-0 game. Will we see dmen clear the crease and block lanes better? You bet. Could we also see the areas where goals are scored from shift or reappear (like the high slot for example)? I believe so.

That's exactly why I wanted to know how old the equipment is. If someone still playing in this era, even drop in play, hasn't put on pads from the early 80s since the early 80s then it's hard to truely argue about the growing of pads over the last 20 years. Pictures are normally dismissed because of the different variables involved. Pad's growth has outpaced player's skill and poorly written rules have not helped the situation.

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Admit what? I dislike Crymson as much as the next person, but he's right. Under the current rules (or lack thereof), there's the potential for exploiting equipment to such an extent that a guy like Giguere (good goalie, not great) can become a Conn Smythe winner practically overnight (i.e., without improving his game in any substantial way). Moreover, that not all goalies use enormous equipment is not proof that there isn't a problem.

Marty Brodeur as a prime example. His pads are tiny compared to guys like Giguere.

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Get rid of goalies and strap on a shooter tutor. Problem solved. Every "goalie" would be the same AND Bettman gets the high-scoring hockey he so desires. Everyone wins.

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I just accept that a combination of larger pads PLUS goalies in general being a bit better than they were years ago (as well as the game changing to be more defensive-minded from decades ago) have contributed a good bit to goalies having improved (or padded :D, yep a pun was intended there) stats.

That makes it a lot easier for me to not waste heartburn over trying to figure out if it is actually pads or the goalies being better having that much more of a contribution. :P

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Come to think of it, I think I lost faith in any sort of discussion with you after having seen you vehemently defend the notion that we should have traded prospects like Filppula for Brad Richards and in doing so locked up his $7m+ salary for seasons to come.

Nice job Sparky.

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Just because people aren't falling over themselves complimenting goalies doesn't mean they aren't being given credit. In fact I would argue that the fact that we talk about goalies as often that we do that we have a tremendous amount of respect for thier game.

That's the way it always is with any sports league though. The league and it's rules are always playing catch-up to what the players and coaches are doing. If it were any other way it would be on a video game. (even though there are exploits there too)

Why bring skater's cheating into a goaltender thread? Trying to deflect the issue to skaters doesn't change the fact that there are issues with the rules on goaltender equipment. I agree that 99.9% of them are cheating as well however. Also deflecting to no-touching icing and the instigator rule are also outside of this thread.

Honestly, I believe making positional goalies be more precise with thier angles and reactive goalies be quicker will add a certain level of excitement to a 0-0 game. Will we see dmen clear the crease and block lanes better? You bet. Could we also see the areas where goals are scored from shift or reappear (like the high slot for example)? I believe so.

That's exactly why I wanted to know how old the equipment is. If someone still playing in this era, even drop in play, hasn't put on pads from the early 80s since the early 80s then it's hard to truely argue about the growing of pads over the last 20 years. Pictures are normally dismissed because of the different variables involved. Pad's growth has outpaced player's skill and poorly written rules have not helped the situation.

For the most part, the big names get their credit, that is unless it's Giggy we are talking about. What I'm saying is that your everyday, run of the mill starter would have been a lights out goaltender in the 80's. No question. Again, goaltending has improved more than any other position has over the last 25-30 years. But what people like Crymson seem to think is it's simply because they use bigger pads. That just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If it were truely just the pads, you'd see a few things.

I'm not going to go into details because that'd just be redundant. But you get the point, it's more than just the pads that make the goaltender.

Why bring a skaters cheating or other controversial rules into the thread? Because I was trying to make a point. It really has nothing to do with those things themselves, it's all about the comparison.

What any dramatic change to the equipment will bring is a more defensive style to the game. The end result is another ridiculous rule change to try and get goal scoring up. There isn't a problem with goalscoring. Would I like to see more? Yes, but I'm sure nearly everyone could stand to see a few more pucks in the net. But goalscoring isn't going to get noticeably better.

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Marty Brodeur as a prime example. His pads are tiny compared to guys like Giguere.

And yet he somehow finds a way to play 70+ games a year without dying.

I guess that pokes a lot of holes in the 'saftey' issue of smaller gear doesn't it? ;)

If Giggy wore Brodeur sized pads his stats would definitely plummet. So would a lot of others, but Giggy gets the brunt because he doesn't possess any sort of 'real' skills. He's not quick, his glove is useless and he basically resembles a table hockey goalie. If the puck doesn't hit him or go wide, it's in the net. You cannot depend on him making a spectacular glove or blocker save, or desperation save. He simply does not have the athleticism to do that.

THAT'S what smaller pads will bring back. The fun and athleticism to the position. Even former goalies are constantly complaing about how boring goalies are today. The whole strategy of today's goalie is "Square to the shooter; make yourself look big". Yawn.

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I started playing again about 10 years ago after not playing for about 15 years and needed to get adult size gear. A friend gave me some old stuff he had. He meant well, but you couldn't really use it for competitive play. The stuff was from the late 70's. There is no doubt the pads are huge now! The chest protector was basically a catcher chest protector with shoulder pads. The blocker was a waffle board with no bend to it and about 3/4 the size of what is out there now. The catcher was really no more than a first baseman's mitt with a cuff on it. The leg pads weighed a ton and didn't have much thigh rise (If you remember the old brown leather leg pads that were four ribs wide then you know what I am talking about).

I bought new stuff out there about 10 years ago that was much bigger than the stuff he gave me. The XL jersey I had that easily covered the old chest protector was stretched tight over this one.

The new stuff I bought is smaller than what my son bought last year and they were all "36 inch" leg pads and standard blockers and catchers. The board between the thumb and the cuff on the blocker alone added a few inches of blocking surface and the whole glove from the 70's would fit into the pocket of his catcher. I can't even get my jersey over his chest protector because the padding is thicker, comes down farther onto the pants and has clavical pads that make him look like a defensive lineman. I had to go from an XL to a "Goalie Cut" - read tent - jersey just to cover the thing when I used it a couple of times.

There is no way that the bigger equipment doesn't help the goalie, but it won't make him a star. The biggest change I see is the dramatic amount of pad above the knee that allows the butterfly goalie to close up the 5 hole so much easier than in the past. Those of us who are the last of the stand up goalies can barely move in pads with that much thigh rise, and all of those young butterfly goalies flopping around would be dead in the water with the short and narrow pads that we like. If you are too slow and get beat side to side it doesn't matter how big you are - you are still going to get beat.

BUT - there is also no way the goalies today aren't better athletes, in better shape, and more skilled than in the past. Many of the guys playing with the small stuff back then also had off season jobs to make a living. It is much easier to live on a million a year than a couple of hunderd thousand a decade ago or less than a hundred thousand a couple of decades ago. They couldn't train all year long, didn't have strength coaches, conditioning coaches, goalie coaches, nutritionists, video replay analysis and so much protection by the refs from being hit during games.

It is a combination of much better athletes that are getting larger all of the time (compare height and weight of current rosters to rosters 30 years ago) with much better designed equipment (just look at the size of gloves for skaters in the time frame for their growth). These changes were a natural growth process and any changes made will just spur another round of growth.

As far as getting goal scoring up, I don't think it is needed. What is needed is an exciting and closley matched game for it to be fun. I hate to bring soccer into it, but they don't have 8-4 games and there is more excitement in the stands than any normal person can understand.

I have rambled enough, but it boils down to the fact that the gear has gotten bigger, the players have gotten better, and the shots have gotten harder and faster. It makes for a very exciting game and what is wrong with that.

Edited by OhioWing

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I hate to bring soccer into it, but they don't have 8-4 games and there is more excitement in the stands than any normal person can understand.

But that's the issue. How popular is soccer in the States? It's not.

The NHL needs more scoring. Not a lot, but a goals-per-game average of 6.5-7 is perfect.

That's less than what the average has been since 1960, but certainly more than what we've seen in 15 years.

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