Red Wings to carry enforcer.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Good.

Fight fans or LGWers that like enforcers, help me out with this and tell me if I'm just totally naive or off-base or too generalized here. I'm all for carrying an enforcer or two to keep people honest on a 3rd or 4th line role. I know they will probably provide little scoring and the like but they have their role on a team, and I think that role is important. To what degree of importance I don't really want to get into, but I understand the justification for such a player, even though I don't go ga-ga over them like some in here seem to do.

With that being said though and enforcers more often than not providing not much offense/points stats, why would we worry about which enforcers to re-sign or getting one over the other, if we don't take age or health or a few things out of the equation. If pretty much all enforcers do is hit or fight, what is the huge difference b/w one enforcer over another, other than possibly wanting one that is a "good fighter?"

Is this a fair assumption or am I just completely saying something out of left field?

While it won't kill me if they don't re-sign Aaron Downey, I'd definitely like to see him back as he was as close of an enforcer as you can get for the Wings for most of the season, has a great personality it seems and a great locker room guy. I remember hearing a post-game interview with him after the Cup win that Modano really was lobbying for him to stay in Dallas a few years ago. That tells you he's probably a really good character guy.

[Dabura 12,207]

why would we worry about which enforcers to re-sign or getting one over the other

It's pretty much a question of how effective the given enforcer is in that role. How well does he pick his fights? How clear are his "messages"? Is he a big defensive liability? Does he have a reputation (e.g., "Someone you don't want to fight")? Things like that.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Personally theres a reason i want Downey over any other Enforcer.. Downey has busted his ass to get on the team, and he did his job excellently.. He didn't take selfish penalties and didn't fight for the sake of fighting.. To bring in a guy like Brennan or Laraque or Godard.. Im not sure if they would have the same restraint..

Aaron and Darren are perfect for detroit, They understand Detroits philosophy and they aren't going to go out of there way and take selfish goon penalties. But at the same time they are going to compete hard and let the other team know, that we arent going to take no stuff..

Thats my reasoning behind Downey and Darren

[YoungGuns1340 1]

For whoever asked, Brashear isnt on the market. Washington tied him up pretty quickly once he reached UFA status. Ovechkin is a big boy so you know only the toughest of guys would come after Ovy. As such, they re-signed the guy thats been keeping Ovy home-free for his career so far. Very smart move by GMGM.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Personally theres a reason i want Downey over any other Enforcer.. Downey has busted his ass to get on the team, and he did his job excellently.. He didn't take selfish penalties and didn't fight for the sake of fighting.. To bring in a guy like Brennan or Laraque or Godard.. Im not sure if they would have the same restraint..

Aaron and Darren are perfect for detroit, They understand Detroits philosophy and they aren't going to go out of there way and take selfish goon penalties. But at the same time they are going to compete hard and let the other team know, that we arent going to take no stuff..

Thats my reasoning behind Downey and Darren

Thats why I liked D and D too. Typically the enforcer role is conceived to be a dirty, goonish role. But all things considered, DMac and Downey are pretty classy fighters. They don't spend their time throwing cheap or dirty hits or pick on smaller players when they're on the ice, and when they are throwin' down, its never when the opponent doesn't even have his gloves off a la Tootoo, with a non-fighter a la Pronger, or with a visor on a la Iggy (although hes gotten better about that).

[Opie 308]

I hate that we as fans, have come to believe that to play for the Red Wings, you must have skill and only that. Just because Downey cant score you a ton of goals, or rack up a bunch of assists, it doesnt matter. We have players for that. Downey brings you other elements and that's why he always has a job whether it be in thr minors or in the NHL. He's the most upbeat player to play for the Wings since a young D-Mac. I mean, he was at 0 all year, which is great for an enforcer. He didnt have that many giveaways, he had 79 hits in 4-6 minutes a night over 56 games. I dont know if hits mean anything to you Opie, but I think it's very important have consitent hitters on your bottom lines as opposed to gusy like Sammy who are more skill then physical. No knock on Sammy, it's just I dont see him as the typical 3rd or 4th liner.

As for Phoenix getting McGrattan, not only are they gonna be a good team next year, there probably goning to be the toughest as well.

That post was in response to some one saying he is not a liability, and I reiterate, because he can do one thing and do it well, that does not mean he isn't a liability else where.

I have said in this thread Aaron Downey is a hell of a lot better than nobody, I would much rather them carry him than no one at all. What I also stated and you may have missed is that my preference would be to get a guy who can play 75+ games log 8-10 minutes and put up 10-20 points.

I am not looking for a Milan Lucic, however I would love to have him, I am just saying I would prefer to have a guy that you can have on the ice night in and night out and not have to worry about the match up all of the time.

As for Pheonix being the toughest team, to me that is a bit of an exaggeration, they will not be as physical as Ana, nor Philly for that matter IMO.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

That post was in response to some one saying he is not a liability, and I reiterate, because he can do one thing and do it well, that does not mean he isn't a liability else where.

I have said in this thread Aaron Downey is a hell of a lot better than nobody, I would much rather them carry him than no one at all. What I also stated and you may have missed is that my preference would be to get a guy who can play 75+ games log 8-10 minutes and put up 10-20 points.

I am not looking for a Milan Lucic, however I would love to have him, I am just saying I would prefer to have a guy that you can have on the ice night in and night out and not have to worry about the match up all of the time.

As for Pheonix being the toughest team, to me that is a bit of an exaggeration, they will not be as physical as Ana, nor Philly for that matter IMO.

Opie, I get it that you think he's a liability in some areas. But how about this thought, when it comes to playing a hitting, physical game and standing up for your team, Filpulla, Hudler, Helm etc....are all liabilities because frankly, they cannot do anything more than shove back.

Just about every player has a liability depending upon what criteria you want to look at. So why point out Downey's liability as an overall hockey player when we all know he can't do it? It's redundant, you can point out anybody's flaws.

And to be overly concerned about matchups is sort of a waste of time IMO. There are 29 other teams, many of which carry 1 or 2 players or even 3 players that would never crack a Wings lineup due to lack of skill. I don't think the world is going to end b/c of Downey's 4 minutes per night and the extremely odd occurence where he might be on the ice against Joe Sakic. I think that's alot of worrying for nothing.

We're on the same page that Downey is better than nothing but something better than Downey would be preferable. Problem is there isn't anybody really. From a Wings perspective, there's so much talent in the lineup and our need to fight and be uber physical isn't like the Ducks so we really don't need an 8-10 minute guy who will command the type of money we don't want to spend on a fighter/player. Downey is cheap and gives the Wings just enough bang for the buck.

And I agree with you about Phoenix. They just traded to tough guys and hard hitters in Boynton and Ballard so their toughness factor actually goes down IMO. McGratton is an elite heavyweight yes, but he can't skate and can't hit anybody so it boils down to him fighting other heavies. Boynton and Ballard would fly around the ice, lay people out and fight.

[Opie 308]

GS&T

I am not trying to hammer home the point, I am defending my posts.

See what appears to happen is I reply to your post, some one calls out something I said, I reply to that post and then you say I get it you think Downey has flaws, or you reply to my post, it is a vicious never ending cycle!!!

But it is not like I am just posting and posting and posting that Downey has flaws, posters are questioning what I posted and I am defending my position.

I think most of us are on the same page, yes Downey is better than nothing, but is something better out there?

And while yes Flip, Franzen, Huds, etc may have flaws and be a liability when it comes to fighting or hitting, but they have fewer flaws/liabilities than positives they bring, for instance most of the guys you mentioned can score, carry the puck, defend, play the PK or PP, however they can't hit or Fight. Where as Downey can hit and fight but can't do much else, thus he has more flaws/liabilities than he does positives. Therefore overall he is a liability with a few rare assets for this team, where as the others are assets that have liabilities.

Not sure if that makes any sense at all.

I am not saying get rid of Downey he is a bum, that was what I said last summer, I am not even saying if they get a "Legit" enforcer (one who can play nightly) that they should get rid of him. I am just saying I would prefer to see a guy who can play nightly.

[Vladifan 680]

Personally theres a reason i want Downey over any other Enforcer.. Downey has busted his ass to get on the team, and he did his job excellently.. He didn't take selfish penalties and didn't fight for the sake of fighting.. To bring in a guy like Brennan or Laraque or Godard.. Im not sure if they would have the same restraint..

Aaron and Darren are perfect for detroit, They understand Detroits philosophy and they aren't going to go out of there way and take selfish goon penalties. But at the same time they are going to compete hard and let the other team know, that we arent going to take no stuff..

Thats my reasoning behind Downey and Darren

I'm not much into the enforcer thing in general, but one thing I know. We got to go to two home games this year (we live in Texas), and I noticed that at every commercial break - while most of the Wings were either resting up one way or another, Downey was always out on the ice, sort of sprint-skating, keeping on moving. The kid has drive. He has focus. He knows and accepts his role. He has class. And like Mac, I truly believe he was meant to be a Wing.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

GS&T

I am not trying to hammer home the point, I am defending my posts.

See what appears to happen is I reply to your post, some one calls out something I said, I reply to that post and then you say I get it you think Downey has flaws, or you reply to my post, it is a vicious never ending cycle!!!

But it is not like I am just posting and posting and posting that Downey has flaws, posters are questioning what I posted and I am defending my position.

I think most of us are on the same page, yes Downey is better than nothing, but is something better out there?

And while yes Flip, Franzen, Huds, etc may have flaws and be a liability when it comes to fighting or hitting, but they have fewer flaws/liabilities than positives they bring, for instance most of the guys you mentioned can score, carry the puck, defend, play the PK or PP, however they can't hit or Fight. Where as Downey can hit and fight but can't do much else, thus he has more flaws/liabilities than he does positives. Therefore overall he is a liability with a few rare assets for this team, where as the others are assets that have liabilities.

Not sure if that makes any sense at all.

I am not saying get rid of Downey he is a bum, that was what I said last summer, I am not even saying if they get a "Legit" enforcer (one who can play nightly) that they should get rid of him. I am just saying I would prefer to see a guy who can play nightly.

Of course he has more flaws.

The way I look at it is this, it's like the Sergei Fedorov arguments.

What does Sergei bring to the Wings that the Wings don't already have in spades? Nothing.

What does Downey bring to the Wings that the Wings don't already have? A HA! IMO, what he brings is so lacking on our roster that its value is actually much greater than what it might appear to be on paper.

Another good, 2 way defending forward would be nice, but we have plenty so that player's value IMO isn't so great to us. But Downey or someone like him brings so much value for his skill set which severely lacks on the team.

But hey, i'd dump Downey in a heartbeat if there were a better option.

[Opie 308]

GS&T either I am misreading your posts or you are missing my point.

You seem to be focusing on the fact that I brought up his flaws and missing the fact that I am saying the wings need what he provides. I never disputed that, I am just hoping they find a guy who can do it nightly.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

GS&T either I am misreading your posts or you are missing my point.

You seem to be focusing on the fact that I brought up his flaws and missing the fact that I am saying the wings need what he provides. I never disputed that, I am just hoping they find a guy who can do it nightly.

I agree somebody who could do it nightly would be great. But what i'm saying is its not necessary. Great? Yes. Necessary? No. The Wings are not trying to phsyically overpower teams for 82 games and we don't need to be in the top half of the league in fighting majors. So we don't need a full time guy who can play every game. It'd be nice but we don't need it. Downey in spot duty for 30 games or so with DMac picking up the other games or both being in the lineup is fine with me. Plenty of jam if we need it.

As for who is really out there that would fit the bill of being able to play more minutes, skate better, be a better player and not be as much of a liability, my list is awfully short

If there's a guy not on my list its because I personally don't like the guy, think he's a cancer or lazy piece of s***, etc....

Guys I would like

Jared Boll

Daniel Carcillo

David Clarkson

Chris Neil

Aaron Voros

Slim pickings if you ask me.

[Opie 308]

GS&T,

I agree they don't need an enforcer, they have Downey, I WOULD PREFER they have some one else.

[Inultus 12]

Downey is a great player in the sense that he is great on the bench and great at boosting the confidence of the other players, whether it is by words or actions.

See my signature...I wish I had a guy like that on my team, but I don't so I'm that guy. IMO, Downey's value is underestimated by many, even tho I agree he can't skate and doesn't have hands either.

[Heaton 1]

Guys I would like

Jared Boll

Daniel Carcillo

David Clarkson

Chris Neil

Aaron Voros

Slim pickings if you ask me.

The only guys I'd want off that are Clarkson and Neil. Carcillo is too much of a basket case, Babcock would put up for his act for about 1 shift.

[bringback91 2]

The only guys I'd want off that are Clarkson and Neil. Carcillo is too much of a basket case, Babcock would put up for his act for about 1 shift.

I think Lapointe would be a nice choice over Downey and Mac, (and i'm a big Dmac fan) but i know alot on here probably wouldn't agree, if for nothing else he's been on the roster before. Anyway I think Neil would be a good fit, he seems to sort of go a bit Avery from time to time, but I don't think that'd be a problem on the Wings. Just wondering what you think it'd take to realisticly get Ottawa to consider a deal?

Edited June 26, 2008 by bringback91

[Opie 308]

Lapointe, which Lapointe, not Marty Lapointe, not the Marty Lapointe ex-wing overpaid in Boston, overpaid in Chicago, Marty Lapointe?

Right, you must mean anther Marty Lapointe, not the one traded to Ottawa, who in the hell is he going to fight.

We are talking about enforcers not just some one to take his roster spot, I will take Downey for 45 games in an enforcer role before I would take Marty Lapointe for 82 games in any capacity.

[Dominator2005 558]

John Erskine would be my first choice right now. He can play (5th or 6th def), hit, fight, he's cheap... Trade Lebda for Erskine. McCarty isn't enforcer, he will provide physical presence, will drop the gloves, but he's old for rough stuff. Do we need somenone to protect our star players, answer is YES, remember last season when Laperiere went after Lidstrom... Downey was there. I like Downey, he isn't taking stupid penalties, will do anything for his team, comeback of the year (as fighter). Drake is gone (I hope so), I would go after Tucker to replace Drake. Keep Downey in system but you need to inquire at least about Laraque. Trade Sammy for anything...

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Homer

Cleary/Flip - Rolston - Franzen

Maltby - Draper - Tucker/Cleary

Laraque - Helm - Hudler

Lidstrom - Rafalski

Kronwall - Ericsson/Meech

Erskine - Chelios/Lilja/Quincey

[Dominator2005 558]

I think Lapointe would be a nice choice over Downey and Mac, (and i'm a big Dmac fan) but i know alot on here probably wouldn't agree, if for nothing else he's been on the roster before. Anyway I think Neil would be a good fit, he seems to sort of go a bit Avery from time to time, but I don't think that'd be a problem on the Wings. Just wondering what you think it'd take to realisticly get Ottawa to consider a deal?

Chris Neil would be GREAT FIT - but why would Ottawa consider trading him???

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

John Erskine would be my first choice right now. He can play (5th or 6th def), hit, fight, he's cheap... Trade Lebda for Erskine. McCarty isn't enforcer, he will provide physical presence, will drop the gloves, but he's old for rough stuff. Do we need somenone to protect our star players, answer is YES, remember last season when Laperiere went after Lidstrom... Downey was there. I like Downey, he isn't taking stupid penalties, will do anything for his team, comeback of the year (as fighter). Drake is gone (I hope so), I would go after Tucker to replace Drake. Keep Downey in system but you need to inquire at least about Laraque. Trade Sammy for anything...

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Homer

Cleary/Flip - Rolston - Franzen

Maltby - Draper - Tucker/Cleary

Laraque - Helm - Hudler

Lidstrom - Rafalski

Kronwall - Ericsson/Meech

Erskine - Chelios/Lilja/Quincey

I've thought about Erskine, but Holland would never go for it considering how deep we are on defense.

I'm still thinking that D.J. King would be a great option providing St. Louis wants to get rid of him.

As far as Laraque goes, unless he all of a sudden becomes a mean S.O.B. who loves to fight, I would not go after him. As many have already pointed out, he's a boring wrestler more than a fighter. I don't see him being a fan favorite in Detroit with his style.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Chris Neil would be GREAT FIT - but why would Ottawa consider trading him???

Because we'd send Kopecky the other way.

[Opie 308]

I'll bite, You are willing to trade away Sammy for "anything" yet you think Tucker will be a good addition.

What on earth makes you think Tucker is a better player at this stage in their career's.

Tucker is old, tired and washed up, he isn't the type of player Drake is/was. He is a Maltby, with a little more offensive upside, to replace Drake you would want a banger, not an agitator.

I love how all of you guys bag on Sammy yet it was he who started the SCF off with a bang, he forechecked and worked hard with Flip and Mule all post season to form at one point in time the best line for the wings, Babcocks words not mine.

Yet all of that credit is given to Mule and Flip, because Sammy was just standing around with his thumb up his arse right!

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I'll bite, You are willing to trade away Sammy for "anything" yet you think Tucker will be a good addition.

What on earth makes you think Tucker is a better player at this stage in their career's.

Tucker is old, tired and washed up, he isn't the type of player Drake is/was. He is a Maltby, with a little more offensive upside, to replace Drake you would want a banger, not an agitator.

I love how all of you guys bag on Sammy yet it was he who started the SCF off with a bang, he forechecked and worked hard with Flip and Mule all post season to form at one point in time the best line for the wings, Babcocks words not mine.

Yet all of that credit is given to Mule and Flip, because Sammy was just standing around with his thumb up his arse right!

Think how many Wings players have received that same label over the years.

[Opie 308]

Think how many Wings players have received that same label over the years.

But currently who is the better player which was my point?

[bringback91 2]

Chris Neil would be GREAT FIT - but why would Ottawa consider trading him???

Well one factor could be he's a 09 UFA and Cody Bass is another, making it easier to part with Neil. I'm not sure what's going on in Ottawa, I've heard Spezza's name in rumors, Emery's gone (a no brainer though), Phillips rumors McG traded. I don't think Ottawa's very happy with the way last season ended, and their looking to make changes for sure.