Kenny has some work left to do

[overHandright1 2]

Because we're men and our aggressive nature draws us towards fighting and enforcers.

Also, any time we're in a scuffle I want to feel like the Wings can hold their own, instead of wondering whether Cleary or Franzen are going to get beat down by somebody.

[LeDs 0]

It amazes me just how many fans just dont get the make-up of a team. You need a mixture of guys. Young guys, veterans, skill players, grinders. If you dont have the right balance it creates a problem. I think Holland, Babcock, Bowman etc. know what they are doing. Why do you think we signed Drake? What did he bring to the team? Why did we re-sign Mac AND play him right away? Why did they put a rookie with hardly any NHL experience in the line-up for the playoffs?

The WIngs haven't won the cup without having a couple of tough guys in the line-up. In 2002 we had Mac, Fischer and Shanahan. The difference between last year and this year is this year we were tougher , more intense and instead of backing down, we pushed back. If the Wings decide to go with a softer line-up it will be a mistake.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

It amazes me just how many fans just dont get the make-up of a team. You need a mixture of guys. Young guys, veterans, skill players, grinders. If you dont have the right balance it creates a problem. I think Holland, Babcock, Bowman etc. know what they are doing. Why do you think we signed Drake? What did he bring to the team? Why did we re-sign Mac AND play him right away? Why did they put a rookie with hardly any NHL experience in the line-up for the playoffs?

The WIngs haven't won the cup without having a couple of tough guys in the line-up. In 2002 we had Mac, Fischer and Shanahan. The difference between last year and this year is this year we were tougher , more intense and instead of backing down, we pushed back. If the Wings decide to go with a softer line-up it will be a mistake.

The diffirence between 08 and 07 is that all two of our top 3 defense men were not injured, more balanced scoring, and Robet Lang + bertuzzi was not our second line.

Edited July 16, 2008 by EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

[norrisnick 1]

It amazes me just how many fans just dont get the make-up of a team. You need a mixture of guys. Young guys, veterans, skill players, grinders. If you dont have the right balance it creates a problem. I think Holland, Babcock, Bowman etc. know what they are doing. Why do you think we signed Drake? What did he bring to the team? Why did we re-sign Mac AND play him right away? Why did they put a rookie with hardly any NHL experience in the line-up for the playoffs?

The WIngs haven't won the cup without having a couple of tough guys in the line-up. In 2002 we had Mac, Fischer and Shanahan. The difference between last year and this year is this year we were tougher , more intense and instead of backing down, we pushed back. If the Wings decide to go with a softer line-up it will be a mistake.

Because he's the best skater we have, is defensively sound, and doesn't treat the puck like a hand grenade.

[chrisdetroit 189]

Because he's the best skater we have, is defensively sound, and doesn't treat the puck like a hand grenade.

Fischer was a tough guy? Really?

[UKWING 8]

The difference between last year and this year is this year we were tougher , more intense and instead of backing down, we pushed back. If the Wings decide to go with a softer line-up it will be a mistake.

the wings were not soft last year. the main difference was that this year our top 4 d-men were lids, raf, kronner and stuart. last year (due to injuries) it was lids, markov, cheli and lilja. the wings also had an easier route to the cup this year than last. they also had more solid scoring depth and better skaters.

but i don't really think the wings were much tougher than last year - they just faced far softer teams this time.

and i don't really see how the wings will be going with a softer team this year - downey did not play in the playoffs and mac only played because of injuries. so the main difference will be hossa instead of drake and there is no way that will stop the wings winning the cup.

don't get me wrong - i definitely want the wings to re-sign both mac and downey. but even if they don't then i still think they will be favourites to win the cup.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Enforcers don't protect anything. If they did, they'd be called protectors instead of enforcers. All they can do is react. There is no prevention involved.

Look at the way Lilja is holding Z in your Sig, If you dont call that protecting, then i dont know what is

[uk_redwing 495]

Samuelsson is a defensively responsible forward. Samuelsson is a big body who can hold his own physically. 5 goals in 22 games is a 19 goal season in 82 games.

This guy's hilarious!

*clears throat*

[annoying font]

Yes but Downeys 3 assists in 56 games totals up to 5 assists in 82 games and McCartys *insert meaningless stat* in *insert meaningless stat* totals up to *more meaningless stats!*

*meaningless stat*

[/annoying font]

[uk_redwing 495]

Fischer was a tough guy? Really?

What? Is Downey tough aswell? When did this happen???!!>!>!/!

What do you mean was Fischer tough? You ever done a youtube search with his name?

[Dabura 12,207]

Also, any time we're in a scuffle I want to feel like the Wings can hold their own, instead of wondering whether Cleary or Franzen are going to get beat down by somebody.

Because we all know that's such a heart-wrenching, ever-present fear.

Dudes, get real. Pavel Datsyuk, one of our "soft Euros," beat the stuffing out of Gary Roberts in one of the sweetest bits of "enforcement" in recent memory -- Wings or otherwise. Point being, I'd take this team's toughness over that of quite a few other teams, as it's a team-wide philosophy, something everyone on the roster buys into it -- as opposed to a bunch of softies needing to hide behind one thug when the going gets rough. Mule isn't going to go twelve straight rounds with Brashear, but make no mistake: the guy threw some punches during this last run. Kronwall and Stuart level people on a consistent basis. Cheli is Cheli. Lilja can fight. One of Mac or Downey will likely be back.

Even Hossa can tango:

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but the Wings can "hold their own." They just won the motherf***ing Stanley Cup. Or what, was that a fluke because they didn't have to go through the Ducks?

As I've already said, there's a place on the roster for enforcer-types, and Holland will see to it that he signs at least one guy for that role before the season begins. He won't, however, be clearing space for this guy by dealing guys like Sammy and Hudler. If anyone has to get moved around, it'll be a scrub.

Enough. No mas.

Edited July 16, 2008 by Dabura

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Gerard Gallant a possibility for coach?

[eva unit zero 271]

Fischer was a tough guy? Really?

Ask Scott Hartnell.

I will NEVER get tired of this fight.

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[Doc Holiday 0]

Ask Scott Hartnell.

I will NEVER get tired of this fight.

That was more of a beating than a fight really.

I still remember that day when I saw it. "Omg fischer come one YES YES YES!!!"

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

With each post it becomes more apparent that the vast majority of this site has never played hockey. Enforcers are only usefull for rivalry games or entertainment value (which I do enjoy)

If an Enforcer is in the press box or scratched not one player is gonna worry about next time they play them before they deliver a dirty hit. Even having Downey didnt reduce Injuries. Contrary to popular belief Downey beating up Lapeireree did absouloutly nothing but entertain us. His beatdown did not make Lidstrom heal faster, or stop our injuries from mounting up.

This guy's hilarious!

*clears throat*

[annoying font]

Yes but Downeys 3 assists in 56 games totals up to 5 assists in 82 games and McCartys *insert meaningless stat* in *insert meaningless stat* totals up to *more meaningless stats!*

*meaningless stat*

[/annoying font]

How is a forwards scoring output a meaningless stat? Isn't that what they are meant to do? A true meaningless stat would be how many fights Downey had in the regular season when he was scratched in the post season.

FAIL

Because we all know that's such a heart-wrenching, ever-present fear.

Dudes, get real. Pavel Datsyuk, one of our "soft Euros," beat the stuffing out of Gary Roberts in one of the sweetest bits of "enforcement" in recent memory -- Wings or otherwise. Point being, I'd take this team's toughness over that of quite a few other teams, as it's a team-wide philosophy, something everyone on the roster buys into it -- as opposed to a bunch of softies needing to hide behind one thug when the going gets rough. Mule isn't going to go twelve straight rounds with Brashear, but make no mistake: the guy threw some punches during this last run. Kronwall and Stuart level people on a consistent basis. Cheli is Cheli. Lilja can fight. One of Mac or Downey will likely be back.

Even Hossa can tango:

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but the Wings can "hold their own." They just won the motherf***ing Stanley Cup. Or what, was that a fluke because they didn't have to go through the Ducks?

As I've already said, there's a place on the roster for enforcer-types, and Holland will see to it that he signs at least one guy for that role before the season begins. He won't, however, be clearing space for this guy by dealing guys like Sammy and Hudler. If anyone has to get moved around, it'll be a scrub.

Enough. No mas.

I agree with most that your saying but to be Fair Roberts was being held by two Refs and off balance when Datsyuk clocked him. Roberts would kick pavels ass and you know it.

[Dabura 12,207]

Fair shmair. Roberts blindsided Mule -- hardly "fair."

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Because we all know that's such a heart-wrenching, ever-present fear.

Dudes, get real. Pavel Datsyuk, one of our "soft Euros," beat the stuffing out of Gary Roberts in one of the sweetest bits of "enforcement" in recent memory -- Wings or otherwise. Point being, I'd take this team's toughness over that of quite a few other teams, as it's a team-wide philosophy, something everyone on the roster buys into it -- as opposed to a bunch of softies needing to hide behind one thug when the going gets rough. Mule isn't going to go twelve straight rounds with Brashear, but make no mistake: the guy threw some punches during this last run. Kronwall and Stuart level people on a consistent basis. Cheli is Cheli. Lilja can fight. One of Mac or Downey will likely be back.

Even Hossa can tango:

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but the Wings can "hold their own." They just won the motherf***ing Stanley Cup. Or what, was that a fluke because they didn't have to go through the Ducks?

As I've already said, there's a place on the roster for enforcer-types, and Holland will see to it that he signs at least one guy for that role before the season begins. He won't, however, be clearing space for this guy by dealing guys like Sammy and Hudler. If anyone has to get moved around, it'll be a scrub.

Enough. No mas.

Beautiful.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Apparently, Kenny Holland has not only succeeded in spoiling us with winning, but has also succeeded in spoling us into being content with a soft team that struggles to get over 15 fights in any season. In other words, he's pussified many fans on this forum.

I differ from most posters in not being content with that and also in understanding that we can win and fight at the same time.

Also, as far I see it, we still have expendable players in our lineup that can be replaced by enforcers.

[norrisnick 1]

Apparently, Kenny Holland has not only succeeded in spoiling us with winning, but has also succeeded in spoling us into being content with a soft team that struggles to get over 15 fights in any season. In other words, he's pussified many fans on this forum.

I differ from most posters in not being content with that and also in understanding that we can win and fight at the same time.

Also, as far I see it, we still have expendable players in our lineup that can be replaced by enforcers.

But Holland doesn't buy it.

"The whole hockey world thought the Detroit Red Wings were soft," he said. "I'm numb to that. That rings hollow with me."

Fighting has absolutely NOTHING to do with being a soft team or not.

The fact that most enforcers don't play in the playoffs makes them by definition expendable.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Apparently, Kenny Holland has not only succeeded in spoiling us with winning, but has also succeeded in spoling us into being content with a soft team that struggles to get over 15 fights in any season. In other words, he's pussified many fans on this forum.

I differ from most posters in not being content with that and also in understanding that we can win and fight at the same time.

Also, as far I see it, we still have expendable players in our lineup that can be replaced by enforcers.

There's more to the game than fighting and enforcers. And this team is not soft and the fans here are not *******.

Have you not watched the last 2 years, or at least the last 1 3/4 years? The Red Wings have a coach that has a team bust their rears by going to the net, working hard in the corners, not necessarily constantly dishing out hits or punishment but certainly not backing away or cowering from it as well, regular season or playoffs. That isn't soft.

Just because you don't have a bona-fide "fighter" or "enforcer" always sticking up for your team doesn't mean the team is soft.

And don't even think about coming back at me that I must hate fighting or things like that. That is further from the truth. I just don't think it is oh so important or the #1/only entertainment value. There are other parts of hockey that are important and other parts of the game that entertain me equally.

Sure you can win and fight at the same time, but just because you do not always drop gloves and throw hands with people doesn't mean you are soft. This is not that difficult to figure out. I realize you like fighting and so forth and I like/respect that you think such highly of it. I'll never chew your case or anybody else's case out for such a thing. What I will give you crap for is thinking that other fans suck for not thinking this way or that this should be the ultimate way to play the game. That isn't right.

Edited July 17, 2008 by SouthernWingsFan

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Fighting has absolutely NOTHING to do with being a soft team or not.

The fact that most enforcers don't play in the playoffs makes them by definition expendable.

The fact that enforcers have been a long part of hockey history means to me that they are necessary. You for some reason believe that all that history means s***, and that your opinion on the matter supersedes what teams have done for decades. I can't agree with you on that point.

McCarty played in the playoffs last year. The Ducks dressed a bunch of enforcers 2 years ago. Yeah, those guys don't get many minutes, but having them as a fail safe doesn't hurt. Based on your analogy of what's expendable, all 4th liners can be deemed expendable just because they might often be scratched or don't get many minutes.

There's more to the game than fighting and enforcers. And this team is not soft and the fans here are not *******.

Have you not watched the last 2 years, or at least the last 1 3/4 years? The Red Wings have a coach that has a team bust their rears by going to the net, working hard in the corners, not necessarily constantly dishing out hits or punishment but certainly not backing away or cowering from it as well, regular season or playoffs. That isn't soft.

Just because you don't have a bona-fide "fighter" or "enforcer" always sticking up for your team doesn't mean the team is soft.

And don't even think about coming back at me that I must hate fighting or things like that. That is further from the truth. I just don't think it is oh so important or the #1/only entertainment value. There are other parts of hockey that are important and other parts of the game that entertain me equally.

Sure you can win and fight at the same time, but just because you do not always drop gloves and throw hands with people doesn't mean you are soft. Wake up.

I'll wake up when we sign an enforcer. Until that time, I'll just sleepwalk waiting for the playoffs to begin. This team will be a lot softer without either Downey or McCarty in the lineup. Just look at this team in past years as proof of that. Last year was an improvement mostly because we had Downey, but if we go back to how it was before, that's a major step back in my mind.

Also, does anybody find it ironic that most players on the team enjoy having an enforcer in the lineup as backup. Or are those players stupid also like us fighting proponents?

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I'll wake up when we sign an enforcer. Until that time, I'll just sleepwalk waiting for the playoffs to begin. This team will be a lot softer without either Downey or McCarty in the lineup. Just look at this team in past years as proof of that. Last year was an improvement mostly because we had Downey, but if we go back to how it was before, that's a major step back in my mind.

Also, does anybody find it ironic that most players on the team enjoy having an enforcer in the lineup as backup. Or are those players stupid also like us fighting proponents?

Again, you apparently must think different overall of the majority of the past 2 seasons. Just because you do not have an enforcer-type in your lineup doesn't automatically mean that you are a soft team. Sorry but your level of thinking regarding this is pretty ridiculous.

Did anybody say you were stupid for being a fighting proponent? Now you are just exaggerating and possibly pouting just because you don't have that many people on your side in regards to NO ENFORCER = SOFT BY DEFAULT line of thinking. It is not hard to figure out. I highly doubt people in here are against fighting. People like a good scrap. And, as hard as a pill it may be for you to swallow, people here do understand the value of an enforcer and think they are necessary as backup, just like what you said.

Your thinking though of NO ENFORCER = SOFT BY DEFAULT is warped, and not in a good way.

[norrisnick 1]

The fact that enforcers have been a long part of hockey history means to me that they are necessary. You for some reason believe that all that history means s***, and that your opinion on the matter supersedes what teams have done for decades. I can't agree with you on that point.

Why is what the Wings have done for the last 10-15 years suddenly not matter? Under the vision of Scotty Bowman fighting and guys with a primary focus on fighting are disappearing from the roster. Yeah he brought back Joey in '97 but not as an enforcer. He semi-retired because his hands were wrecked and wasn't much use as a fighter anyway, but Scotty felt he could contribute on the grind line because he's won the cup before. That was the key factor of his acquisitions. Murphy had won before and Joey had won before. Before that we didn't have a skater that had won the cup.

McCarty played in the playoffs last year. The Ducks dressed a bunch of enforcers 2 years ago. Yeah, those guys don't get many minutes, but having them as a fail safe doesn't hurt. Based on your analogy of what's expendable, all 4th liners can be deemed expendable just because they might often be scratched or don't get many minutes.

Mac played because Maltby and Franzen were in and out of the lineup with injuries. Completely healthy he doesn't get on the ice. Now I'm going to guess that one of the "expendable" players you alluded to before didn't miss a game in our Cup run. Strange that. Getting rid of full-time player for a part-time player. Makes sense...

I'll wake up when we sign an enforcer. Until that time, I'll just sleepwalk waiting for the playoffs to begin. This team will be a lot softer without either Downey or McCarty in the lineup. Just look at this team in past years as proof of that. Last year was an improvement mostly because we had Downey, but if we go back to how it was before, that's a major step back in my mind.

Also, does anybody find it ironic that most players on the team enjoy having an enforcer in the lineup as backup. Or are those players stupid also like us fighting proponents?

I wonder how many of them complained that Downey wasn't on the ice in the playoffs?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Again, you apparently must think different overall of the majority of the past 2 seasons. Just because you do not have an enforcer-type in your lineup doesn't automatically mean that you are a soft team. Sorry but your level of thinking regarding this is pretty ridiculous.

Did anybody say you were stupid for being a fighting proponent? Now you are just exaggerating and possibly pouting just because you don't have that many people on your side in regards to NO ENFORCER = SOFT BY DEFAULT line of thinking. It is not hard to figure out. I highly doubt people in here are against fighting. People like a good scrap. And, as hard as a pill it may be for you to swallow, people here do understand the value of an enforcer and think they are necessary as backup, just like what you said.

Your thinking though of NO ENFORCER = SOFT BY DEFAULT is warped, and not in a good way.

I don't understand how a team finishing last every year in fighting majors is not soft. The way you make it sound, no team is soft.

If every team has an enforcer and we don't, then I view that as making us a little softer than the opposition. Also, the rest of the league looks at the Wings as being somewhat of a soft team when it comes to the rough stuff. That doesn't mean the Wings don't work hard and aren't a pain in the ass to play against, but when it comes down to fisticuffs, yes I think we're soft.

I guess you have a different definition of toughness than I have. Maybe you're talkiing about "team toughness", while I'm looking at it the way other teams do.

Enforcers are fun to have and they don't hurt the team. Some posters like myself think we should have one, while many people don't. I guess it's kind of like a pissing contest.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Why is what the Wings have done for the last 10-15 years suddenly not matter? Under the vision of Scotty Bowman fighting and guys with a primary focus on fighting are disappearing from the roster. Yeah he brought back Joey in '97 but not as an enforcer. He semi-retired because his hands were wrecked and wasn't much use as a fighter anyway, but Scotty felt he could contribute on the grind line because he's won the cup before. That was the key factor of his acquisitions. Murphy had won before and Joey had won before. Before that we didn't have a skater that had won the cup.

Mac played because Maltby and Franzen were in and out of the lineup with injuries. Completely healthy he doesn't get on the ice. Now I'm going to guess that one of the "expendable" players you alluded to before didn't miss a game in our Cup run. Strange that. Getting rid of full-time player for a part-time player. Makes sense...

I wonder how many of them complained that Downey wasn't on the ice in the playoffs?

We didn't need Downey in the playoffs because we didn't play any dirty, physical teams. If we played Anaheim or Calgary, then Downey and McCarty would have been absolutely necessary, or the other team would take runs at our players all night without any retribution.

I just think it's funny how a few posters on LGW who have been taking Holland's pill for years are unwilling to realize that most of the league for decades has carried enforcers. The Wings success in the last 15 years isn't tied to enforcers one way or another.

We didn't have an enforcer in 2006 or 2007. How did those season turn out? As soon as we win the Cup, people now want to ban enforcers from hockey. Typical.

[DaKineMaui 8]

I wonder how many of them complained that Downey wasn't on the ice in the playoffs?

NN - are you pro or con: Helm is on the starting lineup, first thing next season?