Top 10 Red Wings of the Last 15 years?

[skippy_kenn 0]

I didn't say best. I said average.

The Russian 5 was arguably better than Datsyuk's typical 5-man unit because of?

SERGEI FEDOROV.

Both units have the best defenseman in the game at the time. We'll call that even, even though most in this thread have been dissing Vladdy hardcore. Now let's compare the rest, minus Feds v Dats.

Russian 5 has Kozlov/Larionov/Fetisov. The current unit has Zetterberg, Rafalski, and Holmstrom. There is not even a contest there regarding who has had better units to play with.

When Fedorov didn't have a "big night", he was still just as good or better as Datsyuk is on most nights.

BTW...Datsyuk has just established himself as a top two-way forward in the NHL at 30. He entered the league at 23. Fedorov at 23 was an 86-point Selke finalist. Fedorov from 25-27 was the best forward in the world at both ends of the ice. Just because you don't realize or remember how good Fedorov was doesn't mean he wasn't that good.

Fedorov could not take the puck away like Dats, and give Pavel enough time in Detroit and he will pass Sergei in fan Favorites.

I still like Fedorov he was a great Wing no matter what. But I still get amazed at watching Pavel skate.

[skippy_kenn 0]

Lidstrom never got 6 straight Norrises anyway.

Niedermayer doesn't count cause he sucks!

no your right I missed it on that one

[Doggy 130]

Niedermayer doesn't count cause he sucks!

no your right I missed it on that one

Lol. Yeah.

But in his defense, that season that NOT a part time season for him.

[norrisnick 1]

Fedorov could not take the puck away like Dats, and give Pavel enough time in Detroit and he will pass Sergei in fan Favorites.

I still like Fedorov he was a great Wing no matter what. But I still get amazed at watching Pavel skate.

Considering Sergei gets booed every shift it won't be hard. Not that it means anything.

[eva unit zero 271]

Fedorov could not take the puck away like Dats, and give Pavel enough time in Detroit and he will pass Sergei in fan Favorites.

I still like Fedorov he was a great Wing no matter what. But I still get amazed at watching Pavel skate.

Did you just imply that Pavel DATSYUK is, was, or ever will be a better skater or puckhandler than SERGEI FEDOROV was in his prime?

No. Not even close. Datsyuk might not even be top five among the skaters on the team. He's probably the best puckhandler. Fedorov was the best at both in the entire league, with only a handful of guys who could even make an argument against him at either. And as far as defense...Fedorov was FAR better defensively than Datsyuk is. I would argue that they are still not too different in terms of defensive ability now.

[egroen 384]

I didn't say best. I said average.

The Russian 5 was arguably better than Datsyuk's typical 5-man unit because of?

SERGEI FEDOROV.

Both units have the best defenseman in the game at the time. We'll call that even, even though most in this thread have been dissing Vladdy hardcore. Now let's compare the rest, minus Feds v Dats.

Russian 5 has Kozlov/Larionov/Fetisov. The current unit has Zetterberg, Rafalski, and Holmstrom. There is not even a contest there regarding who has had better units to play with.

Are you seriously assuming Zetterberg, Rafalski and Holmstrom are leaps and bounds better than Kozlov, Larionov and Fetisov?

When Fedorov didn't have a "big night", he was still just as good or better as Datsyuk is on most nights.

BTW...Datsyuk has just established himself as a top two-way forward in the NHL at 30. He entered the league at 23. Fedorov at 23 was an 86-point Selke finalist. Fedorov from 25-27 was the best forward in the world at both ends of the ice. Just because you don't realize or remember how good Fedorov was doesn't mean he wasn't that good.

Are you forgetting where Sergei was at 30? He was scoring 60-some points a season. Fedorov had an incredible peak at a young age with two incredible seasons (one was one of the best seasons ever) and three really good seasons. After '98 he had only one really good season where he was better than a point a game, and numerous lackluster seasons. Datsyuk seems to be only getting better at 30. He just followed two great seasons with an incredible season.

I am a huge Fedorov fan and have been in favor of bringing him back at the trade deadline andl as a free agent this year, but his "off" nights or seasons (and there were many of them) were simply not better than Datsyuk.

Did you just imply that Pavel DATSYUK is, was, or ever will be a better skater or puckhandler than SERGEI FEDOROV was in his prime?

Datsyuk is not in the same rink skating-wise as Fedorov, but he is a better stick handler than Sergei ever was... and Sergei was very, very good.

Edited July 17, 2008 by egroen

[dallas27 7]

Fedorov could not take the puck away like Dats, and give Pavel enough time in Detroit and he will pass Sergei in fan Favorites.

I still like Fedorov he was a great Wing no matter what. But I still get amazed at watching Pavel skate.

Fedorov is be the best skater to ever lace it up for the Red Wings. Nobody will ever make skating look as easy as Fedorov did.

Bowman (There is no way he doesn't still run this team)

Yzerman

Lidstrom

Fedorov (#1 if going by skill)

Osgood

Hank

Vladdy

Datsyuk

Shanny

Draper

[Wingsfan1988 0]

I think this could be good. Longevity, consistancy, skill, all of which combined...

1. Yzerman

2. Lidstrom

3. Fedorov

4. Osgood

5. Shanahan

6. Zetterberg

7. Datsyuk

8. Draper

9. Konstantinov

10. Holmstrom

I kind of had a tough time placing Zetterberg and Datsyuk so low, but I figured putting guys ahead of them with 3 and 4 cups as opposed to 1 and 2 cups kind of was the ice breaker.

This list is almost dead on....I might give Lidstrom the edge over Stevie- the multiple Norris trophies and the 4th cup being the decider. Stevie will always be my favorite but for the purposes of the thread..Nick gets the nod.

** also, Vladdy? If he hadn't gotten hurt...I would suggest that is where Bowman should be added.

[Guest Shoreline]

Datsyuk is not in the same rink skating-wise as Fedorov, but he is a better stick handler than Sergei ever was... and Sergei was very, very good.

I disagree. Sergei's stick handling was, in essence, dropping his stick down and leaning on it so he can try to flip the puck up in the air. It was mighty successful, as anyone strong on their stick and strong on the ice is hard to push off. To me that's not a puck handling attribute, but simply strength. I don't consider Fedorov being a good puck handler. He's a semi-decent passer, a great shot, and strong, but not half as good as Datsyuk handling the puck. Although, Datsyuk is not as powerful on his stick and is more upper body than lower body strength. Datsyuk has some speed, but Fedorov has a better stride. Datsyuk is far better with the finesse side of the stick (takeaways, dipsy-doodles, passing) than Fedorov.

The one thing Datsyuk has on Fedorov, especially what made me drop Fedorov below Shanahan, is he hasn't become a distraction to the team and such a childishly aggressive spotlight seeker. Datsyuk is a far better team player.

[egroen 384]

I disagree. Sergei's stick handling was, in essence, dropping his stick down and leaning on it so he can try to flip the puck up in the air. It was mighty successful, as anyone strong on their stick and strong on the ice is hard to push off. To me that's not a puck handling attribute, but simply strength. I don't consider Fedorov being a good puck handler. He's a semi-decent passer, a great shot, and strong, but not half as good as Datsyuk handling the puck. Although, Datsyuk is not as powerful on his stick and is more upper body than lower body strength. Datsyuk has some speed, but Fedorov has a better stride. Datsyuk is far better with the finesse side of the stick (takeaways, dipsy-doodles, passing) than Fedorov.

I largely agree with this, although Datsyuk has a lot of lower body strength as well... especially over the past few years. When he skates, he has such an incredibly low center of gravity, with a wide stance, which has made him go from someone who was backside on the ice a lot to someone who is almost impossible to knock off the puck, despite his size. (I think him being bow-legged helps a bit, too)

[eva unit zero 271]

Bowman (There is no way he doesn't still run this team)

I have to disagree with this.

One need only look at the type of players drafted from 1998-2008 and the priority given to them as compared to 1994-1997 to know that Holland, not Bowman, is in charge. Bowman drafted very poorly as the Wings (effective) GM. The two best players Bowman drafted? Tomas Holmstrom and Mathieu Dandenault. This is compared with Holland drafting Fischer and Datsyuk in his first year. Zetterberg the next year. Kronwall the season after. Holland has had much better drafting success than Bowman did with the same scouts, and the switch in philosophy and success happened overnight and coincided with the changing of hands in the GM office. Bowman doesn't run the show in Detroit.

[arpawocky 0]

Lidstrom never got 6 straight Norrises anyway.

YET. We will have to bring this thread back in 2011.

[egroen 384]

Being a great coach does not necessarily translate into being a good executive. Bowman was the greatest hockey coach ever, but Devellano, Nill and Holland are better running the show. Bowman still has a lot of say with Babcock, though, to Babcock's credit.

Especially nowadays, I do no think anyone can be an effective coach while a GM as well.

[Opie 308]

Eva,

You refuse to give Dats (see the Selke thread) credit it is like he kicked your dog or stole your wife!

Feds had two phenomenal years, and a bunch of very very good years, as of right now Dats has played very consistently at a very very good level.

Feds only has 2 years that are way better than any year Datsyuk has put up.

However the difference lies in consistency, Dats has played about a third of the NHL games Feds has and if his pace keeps up his numbers will average out to about the same amount of points as Feds, that is assuming his career tails off at the end like Feds' (and most athletes) did.

1196 472 674 1146

445 139 286 425

And for the record what in the hell does being the best on your team have to do with work ethic, I say raw talent wise sure he had the most talent, but Yzerman, Shanny, and The Professor were better hockey players.

The guy took nights off, even Doug Brown said it in that quote, yet somehow your internet post (from a guy who never played with him) is going to sway my opinion of him, when his ex-teammate came out and said it, in what seemed to be a statement that was trying to compliment the guy.

Bowman worked so many head games with that guy to get him to play, if it weren't for Bowman Feds probably doesn't have the numbers he does.

Like in ANA and CLS when he is not interested his numbers show it.

Edit: Wrong initials

Edited July 18, 2008 by Opie

[norrisnick 1]

Eva,

You refuse to give Dats (see the Selke thread) credit it is like he kicked your dog or stole your wife!

Feds had two phenomenal years, and a bunch of very very good years, as of right now Dats has played very consistently at a very very good level.

Feds only has 2 years that are way better than any year Datsyuk has put up.

However the difference lies in consistency, Dats has played about a third of the NHL games Feds has and if his pace keeps up his numbers will average out to about the same amount of points as Feds, that is assuming his career tails off at the end like Feds' (and most athletes) did.

1196 472 674 1146

445 139 286 425

And for the record what in the hell does being the best on your team have to do with work ethic, I say raw talent wise sure he had the most talent, but Yzerman, Shanny, and The Professor were better hockey players.

The guy took nights off, even Doug Brown said it in that quote, yet somehow your internet post (from a guy who never played with him) is going to sway my opinion of him, when his ex-teammate came out and said it, in what seemed to be a statement that was trying to compliment the guy.

Bowman worked so many head games with that guy to get him to play, if it weren't for Bowman Feds probably doesn't have the numbers he does.

Like in ANA and CLS when he is not interested his numbers show it.

Edit: Wrong initials

No.

And Bowman is probably the biggest reason Fedorov's offensive numbers aren't bigger than they were. His coaching style didn't allow it.

[egroen 384]

No.

And Bowman is probably the biggest reason Fedorov's offensive numbers aren't bigger than they were. His coaching style didn't allow it.

But why did he not come even close to such production in Anaheim or Columbus where he could have been "the man" and gotten back up to the 25 minutes a game he craved? He was still in his early 30s, injuries were not a big problem and he at least had talented wings to play with.

He was surrounded by a lot of talent in Detroit, how much does that offset the lessened minutes Bowman gave him? When Yzerman was down, and with increased minutes he always did shine, there is no question about that.

If Fedorov had someone other than Bowman, who let him have his minutes, but was not nearly as demanding, do you really think Fedorov would have automatically popped 1020+ point, selke worthy seasons after another, or would he have taken advantage of the leniancy, taken even more off days and floated by on his talent even more?

I dunno... Fedorov really is somewhat of an enigma.

Edited July 18, 2008 by egroen

[norrisnick 1]

But why did he not come even close to such production in Anaheim or Columbus where he could have been "the man" and gotten back up to the 25 minutes a game he craved? He was still in his early 30s, injuries were not a big problem and he at least had talented wings to play with.

He was surrounded by a lot of talent in Detroit, how much does that offset the lessened minutes Bowman gave him? When Yzerman was down, and with increased minutes he always did shine, there is no question about that.

If Fedorov had someone other than Bowman, who let him have his minutes, but was not nearly as demanding, do you really think Fedorov would have automatically popped 1020+ point, selke worthy seasons after another, or would he have taken advantage of the leniancy, taken even more off days and floated by on his talent even more?

I dunno... Fedorov really is somewhat of an enigma.

Babcock in Anaheim was even more restrictive. Most of his Columbus tenure he was battling wrist and abdominal issues and then came Hitchcock who chokes the life out of his team as well. Boudreau is the reason he re-signed in Washington.

Fedorov craved pressure/big game situations. Those don't exist during the regular season in Detroit or in Anaheim or Columbus. You can call it laziness, but he was always there when a game mattered.

[Opie 308]

No.

And Bowman is probably the biggest reason Fedorov's offensive numbers aren't bigger than they were. His coaching style didn't allow it.

We disagree but for my money I take Shanny and Igor over Feds.

Shanny the numbers alone tell me all I need to know, Igor, come on the guy was a major part of the best line to ever play hockey. His playmaking ability even at an advanced age was IMO better than what Feds showed on a regular basis.

Feds was a player with great potential and on some nights he played up to full potential and other nights he didn't to me that is a detriment I don't want on my team.

As a Red Sox fan I compare J.D Drew to Feds, the guy is a 5 tool player, when he wants to be. The difference is that JD Drew is made of the softest glass known to man kind and Feds was never a "Soft Euro"!

[eva unit zero 271]

But why did he not come even close to such production in Anaheim or Columbus where he could have been "the man" and gotten back up to the 25 minutes a game he craved? He was still in his early 30s, injuries were not a big problem and he at least had talented wings to play with.

Fedorov in Detroit did not have as talented linemates as Datsyuk has had. Fedorov outside of Detroit has not played significantly more time per game than he did in Detroit, and has had significantly WORSE linemates than he had in Detroit.

My only point about Fedorov's ice time was that the expectations of him came because of his performance in a season in which he played a ridiculous amount of the time.

In Anaheim he played around 18-20 minutes as he did in Detroit, and he was easily the top forward. In Columbus, he played the defensive safeguard to completely irresponsible puck hogs in Rick Nash and Nik Zherdev. He also played a lot of games on the blueline as a Jacket.

My point is that Fedorov has spent most of his last few seasons playing a primarily defensive role; ironically, due to a reduction in his offensive output, this has caused people to feel he's "washed up and no good anymore" even though he's still one of the ten best defensive forwards in hockey.

People argued Fedorov as overpaid at $4m. Well, let's look at that by comparing him to two Red Wings people on LGW felt are worth that much. Daniel Cleary and Johan Franzen. Fedorov has Franzen's strength; he has Cleary's speed, and he has defensive abilities that surpass both. And his offensive performance, points-wise, was comparable to the two of them despite the fact that most of his season was spent as the most offensively talented player on the ice whenever he was out, which is not true for the other two.

But looking at this another way; The highest scoring player born before 1970 last season was Mark Recchi, wh was waived by the Penguins for poor performance, then picked up by the Thrashers and rodet he coattails of Ilya Kovalchuk and Marian Hossa. Next up is Brendan Shanahan, who was defensively inept for the Rangers, and generally considered lazy in his time there because most of his offensive opportunities came from the work of others. Can anyone guess who finished third in this age group?

Fedorov. The only one of the three whose team actually tried to keep him this offseason.

More when I have more time.

[egroen 384]

Fedorov craved pressure/big game situations. Those don't exist during the regular season in Detroit or in Anaheim or Columbus. You can call it laziness, but he was always there when a game mattered.

I do not disagree there, but he certainly wanted to be paid like he was a consistent 100+ point/season player... and when he was paid according to that, did not play up to it. Except in the pressure/big game situations. Well, that did not help Anaheim nor Columbus get to the playoffs. For those teams, regular season did matter.l

Being a big game player does not help much when you can not even get your team into a big game.

Babcock is not more restrictive than Bowman, not for a second... I'm amazed you typed that. Babcock does make his players accountable but if they earn it, they get the minutes -- see Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen.

I just pulled up a random game of the Mighty Ducks in '03 and Sergei had 24 minutes of ice time. If he was playing less most of the time, according to Babcock's MO, it was because he did not earn it.

Edited July 18, 2008 by egroen

[therock48880 14]

I find the Fedorov dispute to be interesting. I think people are still bitter that he left Detroit for essentially less money. Comparing him to Datsyuk is difficult because their styles are different. I'd give Datsyuk the edge in puckhandling and shiftiness on the ice but that's it. (and I love Datsyuk). Everything else, Fedorov was better. I don't even see how this conversation is still going. I guess many around lgw have very short memories or something, leaving Vladdy off the lists, downplaying Fedorov's importance, etc...

I had Lidstrom 1 and Yzerman 2 but seriously debated whether to put Fedorov at 2. I think people let their personal feelings get in the way or something.

[therock48880 14]

I do not disagree there, but he certainly wanted to be paid like he was a consistent 100+ point/season player... and when he was paid according to that, did not play up to it. Except in the pressure/big game situations. Well, that did not help Anaheim nor Columbus get to the playoffs.

Being a big game player does not help much when you can not even get your team into a big game.

Babcock is not more restrictive than Bowman, not for a second... I'm amazed you typed that. Babcock does make his players accountable but if they earn it, they get the minutes -- see Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen.

I just pulled up a random game of the Mighty Ducks in '03 and Sergei had 24 minutes of ice time.

He certainly was while in Anaheim. The Ducks were committed to trapping and played games just like the Devils did. He wanted to win games 2-1. He's not as restrictive now, but back then he was much worse than Scotty. I would say the same thing about Ken Hitchcock.

[Opie 308]

Babcock in Anaheim was even more restrictive. Most of his Columbus tenure he was battling wrist and abdominal issues and then came Hitchcock who chokes the life out of his team as well. Boudreau is the reason he re-signed in Washington.

Fedorov craved pressure/big game situations. Those don't exist during the regular season in Detroit or in Anaheim or Columbus. You can call it laziness, but he was always there when a game mattered.

Even the series against LA, I know that the last goal was not his fault on his own, I am not saying the specific play.

But that series was his chance to step up when Steve and Shanny were injured, hmmm that wasn't so successful.

I am not saying he didn't have huge games or even huge series, but he never won a Conn Smythe, sure he won a Hart, and his Selke's he earned, he played D at a very high end, when Scotty made him, same with Stevie.

To say Feds didn't benefit from Bowman is denying what Bowman is, and that first paragraph sounds like a bunch of excuses. And it also shows that he was never going to put a team on his back and carry them, if the team looked bad he wasn't going to play his hardest. So to him regular season games meant a lot less than playoffs, well the problem there Sergei is that if you don't play hard in the regular season, and you don't have a team of all world talent around you, you don't make the playoffs. Well unless you get traded at the deadline to a team already in the playoffs!

He set that situation up, look at the teams he was looking to go to, Carolina, Anaheim, Columbus, he chose those teams. It wasn't like he signed and then Ana switched the coach on him.

HE wanted to go some where he could be the #1, and regardless of the circumstances he was not nearly as good away from Detroit as he was in Detroit!

When was Sergei successful and didn't have all stars all around him?

[Opie 308]

Fedorov in Detroit did not have as talented linemates as Datsyuk has had. Fedorov outside of Detroit has not played significantly more time per game than he did in Detroit, and has had significantly WORSE linemates than he had in Detroit.

My only point about Fedorov's ice time was that the expectations of him came because of his performance in a season in which he played a ridiculous amount of the time.

In Anaheim he played around 18-20 minutes as he did in Detroit, and he was easily the top forward. In Columbus, he played the defensive safeguard to completely irresponsible puck hogs in Rick Nash and Nik Zherdev. He also played a lot of games on the blueline as a Jacket.

My point is that Fedorov has spent most of his last few seasons playing a primarily defensive role; ironically, due to a reduction in his offensive output, this has caused people to feel he's "washed up and no good anymore" even though he's still one of the ten best defensive forwards in hockey.

People argued Fedorov as overpaid at $4m. Well, let's look at that by comparing him to two Red Wings people on LGW felt are worth that much. Daniel Cleary and Johan Franzen. Fedorov has Franzen's strength; he has Cleary's speed, and he has defensive abilities that surpass both. And his offensive performance, points-wise, was comparable to the two of them despite the fact that most of his season was spent as the most offensively talented player on the ice whenever he was out, which is not true for the other two.

But looking at this another way; The highest scoring player born before 1970 last season was Mark Recchi, wh was waived by the Penguins for poor performance, then picked up by the Thrashers and rodet he coattails of Ilya Kovalchuk and Marian Hossa. Next up is Brendan Shanahan, who was defensively inept for the Rangers, and generally considered lazy in his time there because most of his offensive opportunities came from the work of others. Can anyone guess who finished third in this age group?

Fedorov. The only one of the three whose team actually tried to keep him this offseason.

More when I have more time.

Umm dude, he was a part of the Russian 5, I am sorry the only people on the wings that crack that line due to talent right now are Lids and Z. EDIT: That is assuming Dats is in for Feds.

And even then I may still keep Fetisov in, the only linemate from that team that would be a sure fire replacable part is Kozlov.

Then Feds went on to play on a line with Shanny and Yzerman, you mean to tell me that Homer is better than one of those two, that is rich my friend!!!

I think your font is starting to go to your head!

Edit:

Plus to your last part about the 3 players, two of the three have fallen off of the shelf, Shanny and Recchi have lost a lot of their game in the last couple of years, which is a testament to what I said about Feds never being a soft Euro. However why did you not choose to compare him to Jagr, stylistically and amount of time in the league it is a fair comparison, oh but that is right Jagr blows Feds stats away. But I am sure as with everything else you had a reason for the comparisons you made, usually because when you are selective like that it proves your point! EDIT: you in general not you EVA!

And to the overpaid part, for 05-06 and 06-07 Feds produced at a clip just about the same as everyone's favorite 1.2m player Sammy! So yeah 4 mil is an overpayment IF it is not this summer in which everyone was overpaid, except for about 6 players.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Opie

[egroen 384]

Fedorov in Detroit did not have as talented linemates as Datsyuk has had.

Strongly, strongly disagree.

I am not arguing Fedorov is overpaid as a free agent at $4 million. I do not disagree that he is still one of the premier two-way forwards in the NHL. I loved him as a Red Wing and would love to have him back.

I am simply arguing his "off nights and seasons" are not better than Datsyuk. Datsyuk at 30 is far and away outperforming Fedorov at the same age and only showing signs of improving, while Fedorov was clearly in decline already.