Top 10 Red Wings of the Last 15 years?

[egroen 384]

Everything else, Fedorov was better. I don't even see how this conversation is still going.

You are completely missing the point. I am not arguing Datsyuk is "better" than Fedorov, but that Fedorov's prime was awfully short and he was not much "better" than Datsyuk is right now for long. Fedorov's "off" games and seasons are not "better" than Datsyuk.

He certainly was while in Anaheim. The Ducks were committed to trapping and played games just like the Devils did.

If this is the case, why would he not be playing his best two-way forward? We're not talking about Bure here. Fedorov got his minutes in Anaheim and had every opportunity to continue getting them.

[therock48880 14]

You are completely missing the point. I am not arguing Datsyuk is "better" than Fedorov, but that Fedorov's prime was awfully short and he was not much "better" than Datsyuk is right now for long. Fedorov's "off" games and seasons are not "better" than Datsyuk.

If this is the case, why would he not be playing his best two-way forward? We're not talking about Bure here. Fedorov got his minutes in Anaheim and had every opportunity to continue getting them.

No, that's where the difference of opinion is happening. He got his minutes, yes, but it was in a defense-first system. You have to realize that playing in a trapping system can have a negative effect on an offensive players stats.

[egroen 384]

No, that's where the difference of opinion is happening. He got his minutes, yes, but it was in a defense-first system. You have to realize that playing in a trapping system can have a negative effect on an offensive players stats.

Are you implying Bowman was not "defense-first"? And Bowman gave him less minutes to boot.

Datsyuk is playing under the same restrictions, and I have no doubt he would get higher offensive numbers without being purposefully lined up against other teams' number one lines. At the same point in their respective careers, Datsyuk is the better player.

Given Fedorov's amazing peak, Datsyuk is not even close to being a better player overall, however. He needs to keep improving and maintain it to a degree Fedorov was never able to, in order to approach Fedorov all-time.

Edited July 18, 2008 by egroen

[Opie 308]

No, that's where the difference of opinion is happening. He got his minutes, yes, but it was in a defense-first system. You have to realize that playing in a trapping system can have a negative effect on an offensive players stats.

Was he forced to play in that system or did he choose to go there?

Was Ana an all out offensive force before he got there?

NO he chased the years of a deal (don't get confused with $$$, he wanted the extra year that Ken pulled), he wanted security, I am not saying he shouldn't have, but when he got there he knew the situation, he knew what he was getting himself into.

And how different was the trap from our beloved left wing lock, I say that was damn close to being a trapping system, Bowman preached D first, the difference is that at that time he also let his players have offensive freedom where as Babs at the time didn't.

But I hear a lot of excuses for why Feds didn't produce in Ana, when the bottom line is, he didn't produce and hasn't since he left Detroit, at least at the level he did in Detroit.

As much as the trap hurt his stats (in your opinion) do you think playing on a team full of all stars and on a line where everyone was dangerous and had to be watched might have helped him?

[egroen 384]

And Kariya still produced at a point per game clip under Babcock with the Ducks... with arguably worse linemates.

Babcock is not the reason Fedorov had such an incredible decline.

Edited July 18, 2008 by egroen

[therock48880 14]

Was he forced to play in that system or did he choose to go there?

Was Ana an all out offensive force before he got there?

NO he chased the years of a deal (don't get confused with $$$, he wanted the extra year that Ken pulled), he wanted security, I am not saying he shouldn't have, but when he got there he knew the situation, he knew what he was getting himself into.

And how different was the trap from our beloved left wing lock, I say that was damn close to being a trapping system, Bowman preached D first, the difference is that at that time he also let his players have offensive freedom where as Babs at the time didn't.

But I hear a lot of excuses for why Feds didn't produce in Ana, when the bottom line is, he didn't produce and hasn't since he left Detroit, at least at the level he did in Detroit.

As much as the trap hurt his stats (in your opinion) do you think playing on a team full of all stars and on a line where everyone was dangerous and had to be watched might have helped him?

I didn't think we were discussing why he left, I thought we were talking about his decline in stats. The difference between the trap and the left wing lock is that the left wing stays in a defensive position. It doesn't have much affect on centers. In a true trap, it's the center who is forced into a more defensive role. Similar systems, you're right, but since Feds was a center, the change from the left wing lock to the trap would have had a detrimental impact on him.

I also disagree with your statement that he hasn't produced since he left Detroit. There's this belief that he completely quit scoring as soon as he left the Wings. In his first year in Anaheim, despite a horrible start by him and the team, and a totally different system, he had 31 goals. His most notable drop came in assists which he only registered 34. I'm assuming that drop could be attributed to not having Shanahan on his wing. The next year he was traded to Columbus where he spent about half of his games played playing defense and battled some nagging injuries. Additionally, Fedorov was a complete player and points are not the only thing that determines how effective he was.

[therock48880 14]

And Kariya still produced at a point per game clip under Babcock with the Ducks... with arguably worse linemates.

Babcock is not the reason Fedorov had such an incredible decline.

31 goals is not an incredible decline, imo.

[Opie 308]

I didn't think we were discussing why he left, I thought we were talking about his decline in stats. The difference between the trap and the left wing lock is that the left wing stays in a defensive position. It doesn't have much affect on centers. In a true trap, it's the center who is forced into a more defensive role. Similar systems, you're right, but since Feds was a center, the change from the left wing lock to the trap would have had a detrimental impact on him.

I also disagree with your statement that he hasn't produced since he left Detroit. There's this belief that he completely quit scoring as soon as he left the Wings. In his first year in Anaheim, despite a horrible start by him and the team, and a totally different system, he had 31 goals. His most notable drop came in assists which he only registered 34. I'm assuming that drop could be attributed to not having Shanahan on his wing. The next year he was traded to Columbus where he spent about half of his games played playing defense and battled some nagging injuries. Additionally, Fedorov was a complete player and points are not the only thing that determines how effective he was.

I didn't mean to make it look like we were talking about why he left, you were making excuses giving reasons why he didn't produce as well, I simply stated when he went there he knew the system, for a lot of players that is the reason they choose a team, success and style of play, feds chased the contract, again not money, but years (I don't blame him for that).

If you re read my post you will see I said he has not produced at the same rate as he did in Detroit.

You are right, points aren't the only measuring stick, team success is another one, especially if you are brought in to be the focal point, aka the man!

Please don't take my statements as I hate feds, he is one of the top 5 skill/talent wise players to ever play on the wings, but if we are talking about night in and night out the effort and product he put on the ice he doesn't even crack top 10.

Instead of saying if the coach did this or the coach did that his stats would be different, well how about what his teammate Doug Brown said of him the fact that he doesn't play every night, if he had played every night like the game mattered to him what would his stats have been?

If he played with half of the heart and dedication as Steve Yzerman you are possibly talking about one of the greatest players of all time, as it is you are talking about a 400 goal score who played when he thought the game mattered.

31 goals is not an incredible decline, imo.

1 year other than that he produces at the same rate as Sammy!

Edited July 18, 2008 by Opie

[UpperCorner14 0]

In my humble opinion, Konstantinov and Sheppard don't even get a sniff of this top ten list.

As for Shep... He was probably the most one-dimensional top six forward the Wings have had in the last 15 years. He had a great shot and nothing else. His skating ability probably rivals some of the NHL's worst. He had almost no playmaking ability. He was irrelevant defensively. He was not gritty or physical at all. He didn't bring any intangibles. Oh, yeah, but he scored 50 goals in a high scoring era with one of either of two amazing set up men at his side (either Feds or Yzerman, depending on which season). Was he instrumental in winning a cup? Hell, no.

As for Vladdy... I love the guy. Maybe he gets a sentimental (but perhaps undeserved) #10 for what might have been, but there were others who played more and were at least equally instrumental in the Wings' success. If he had played on more than one cup team, then you have an argument. I have a hard time, however, ranking him above guys that were good players for more seasons and were in key roles on multiple cup teams.

You just described Luc Robitaille

[therock48880 14]

We are not talking about why he left, you making excuses giving reasons why he didn't produce as well, I simply stated when he went there he knew the system, for a lot of players (Hossa) that is the reason they choose a team, success and style of play, feds chased the contract, again not money years.

If you re read my post you will see I said he has not produced at the same rate as he did in Detroit.

1 year other than that he produces at the same rate as Sammy!

Sammy hasn't played Defense for half of his games.

[Opie 308]

Sammy hasn't played Defense for half of his games.

Really Feds played half of his career as a defense man? Really when?

[therock48880 14]

Really Feds played half of his career as a defense man? Really when?

Where did I say he played half his career as a d-man? He played approximately one half of his games during his tenure with Columbus on D. So, he played one full season in Anaheim, netted 31 goals, then was traded to Columbus where he alternated between defenseman and center and played for Ken Hithcock. (if you don't think playing for Hitchcock can have an adverse affect on someone, maybe you should read some of Brett Hull's comments about him)

[Opie 308]

Where did I say he played half his career as a d-man? He played approximately one half of his games during his tenure with Columbus on D. So, he played one full season in Anaheim, netted 31 goals, then was traded to Columbus where he alternated between defenseman and center and played for Ken Hithcock. (if you don't think playing for Hitchcock can have an adverse affect on someone, maybe you should read some of Brett Hull's comments about him)

Right here:

Sammy hasn't played Defense for half of his games.

Half of his games is a lot different than sometimes he played half of his games on D.

[skippy_kenn 0]

I find the Fedorov dispute to be interesting. I think people are still bitter that he left Detroit for essentially less money. Comparing him to Datsyuk is difficult because their styles are different. I'd give Datsyuk the edge in puckhandling and shiftiness on the ice but that's it. (and I love Datsyuk). Everything else, Fedorov was better. I don't even see how this conversation is still going. I guess many around lgw have very short memories or something, leaving Vladdy off the lists, downplaying Fedorov's importance, etc...

I had Lidstrom 1 and Yzerman 2 but seriously debated whether to put Fedorov at 2. I think people let their personal feelings get in the way or something.

I agree some are bitter on the way he left or that he left.

I loved watching him play I still have his Jersey hanging above the bar in its frame.

He was a great player with Detroit it just sometimes happens that when you go to another town or city you can not find the same magic. (Thats what makes sports interesting)

[Yzerfan1999 81]

I agree some are bitter on the way he left or that he left.

I loved watching him play I still have his Jersey hanging above the bar in its frame.

He was a great player with Detroit it just sometimes happens that when you go to another town or city you can not find the same magic. (Thats what makes sports interesting)

The bottom line is that is doesn't matter how he left the Wings, he has still played fewer season with Detroit in the past 15 years then Yzerman, and even during the years he did play with Yzerman - they were 1a and 1b forwards. The fact that Yzerman was around and contributing to the team for 2 more seasons places him above Feds IMO.

Plus a little something called devotion helps his cause.

[cwk 0]

Better late than never. Remembering that this is the last 10 years:

1. Lidstrom

2. Fedorov

3. Yzerman

4. Shanahan

5. Chelios

6. Holmstrom (he's played in all 10)

7. Datsyuk

8. Draper

9. Osgood

10. Zetterberg (5 seasons is the only reason he's so low)

I would love to put Vladdy on, but he hasn't played in over 10 years now. It's amazing to say that. I can still remember the crash like it was yesterday.

- ck

[Yzerfan1999 81]

Better late than never. Remembering that this is the last 10 years:

1. Lidstrom

2. Fedorov

3. Yzerman

4. Shanahan

5. Chelios

6. Holmstrom (he's played in all 10)

7. Datsyuk

8. Draper

9. Osgood

10. Zetterberg (5 seasons is the only reason he's so low)

I would love to put Vladdy on, but he hasn't played in over 10 years now. It's amazing to say that. I can still remember the crash like it was yesterday.

- ck

15.... but whatevs.

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Top 10 based on a combination of talent and success:

1. Yzerman

2. Lidstrom

3. Fedorov

4. Datsyuk

5. Zetterberg

6. Draper (not for the goals)

7. Osgood

8. Shanahan

9. Fetisov

10. Larionov

[BeeRYCE 2]

6. Draper (not for the goals)

I don't think anyone would base Draper's success off of that criteria.

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

I don't think anyone would base Draper's success off of that criteria.

Just making sure no one was going to come in here claiming blasphemy after seeing Draper above Shanahan in terms of skill.

[redwings1914 18]

Boyd "What, We're supposed to try when were on the ice?" Devereaux

Uwe "Let's go racing boys" Krupp

Ulf "I can kill you" Samuelsson

Billy "I Quit" Ranford

Ken "Regret" Wregget

Derian "Fire = Oooh Ahh" Hatcher

Yuri "You guys won't remember me anyways" Butsayev

Yan "Damn it, you mean we have someone else on the team whose name starts with Y?" Goulbousky

Norm "I Believe in" Maracle

Kyle "Ow, my hand hurts" Calder