Jiri Hudler

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/boxscore?gid=2007122619

Not sure how it's a knock on Downey. You're saying he should've responded to Walker responding to Jackman? Then what, does Brewer respond for Downey responding to Walker? When does it end? It doesn't happen like you envision it.

You're missing the point. Respect is earned by fighting back in all walks of life.

In the next game Downey did challenge Walker so as to tell him that the Wings weren't going to be taken lightly.

That's what an enforcer's job is. Without Downey, we wouldn't have anybody to answer the bell like that and send a message to the other team physically. Messages on the scoreboard aren't everything. Teams already know that we're good on the scoreboard, but it's still important to let them know that we aren't afraid to fight back and that we have guys who can do it.

[Dabura 12,207]

Respect is earned by fighting back in all walks of life.

Well, this explains a lot.

[Heaton 1]

You don't think Franzen giving guys concussions and Kronwall breaking guys noses is sending a message physically? Next time Jackman is out there with Franzen you bet your ass he'll move the puck a little quicker.

Look, I get what you're saying and it holds water but guys like Kronwall, Stuart, Franzen and whoever else aren't going to stop delivering checks because Matt Walker or Derek Boogaard are in the lineup or in the ice. They also aren't going to stop because Downey isn't in or someone challenges them to a fight. You don't get to the NHL being a physical player and then all of a sudden stop because a Matt Walker tries to fight you.

You say the Wings toughness is directly linked to Aaron Downey, the toughness was already there, Downey was just a player who was brought in to fight exclusively and add an element we didn't have every night. The Wings are a tough, physical team without Downey, but you're right, with him in the non-fighters know that he'll tell the other team to go with him instead.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Well, this explains a lot.

That might sound cruel, but it's true.

Teams will respect the Wings more if we have guys who they know won't let our players be messed with without retaliation. As I just posted, the fact that we're a talented team is already respected and feared all around the league.

However, there is still a perception that we aren't willing to fight back. And by fight back I'm talking about having an enforcer do it, and not Pavel Datsyuk when the refs are in there.

[Heaton 1]

However, there is still a perception that we aren't willing to fight back. And by fight back I'm talking about having an enforcer do it, and not Pavel Datsyuk when the refs are in there.

That's your perception, not anyone inside the game. Every team in the league respects and fears the Wings, both phsyically and mentally. If the team the Wings are playing against are more concerned with the fight card than the score board, they'll never win anything.

And why do you think the Wings organization gives a s*** what other teams think? How insecure do you think they are?

[Dabura 12,207]

However, there is still a perception that we aren't willing to fight back.

Really? Even if this is, in fact, some really big deal "around the league," teams know (and if they don't know, will learn very quickly) that thuggery really isn't going to earn them jack s*** against this team, whether we're talking numbers on the scoreboard or stuff up in the head (e.g., "fear," "respect"). The Flames, Sharks, Ducks, Avs, Stars and Pens have all tried what you're suggesting. And, with the exception of the Ducks, they all got obliterated.

The Wings know this. The league at large knows this. That's why the Wings are, for another straight season, going to preach the virtues of team toughness over pushback thuggery. And, I can guarantee you, that's a scary thought for anyone who's not a Wing.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

That's your perception, not anyone inside the game. Every team in the league respects and fears the Wings, both phsyically and mentally. If the team the Wings are playing against are more concerned with the fight card than the score board, they'll never win anything.

And why do you think the Wings organization gives a s*** what other teams think? How insecure do you think they are?

We don't care that much, but the fact that Holland was willing to carry some fighters last year, regardless of what norrisnick thinks, does suggest that the Wings cared somewhat about their toughness and willingness to stick up for teammates.

To abandon all that now would be a mistake.

Remember that Flyers game 2 years ago? It's situations like that night that I don't want to see repeated in the regular season.

[Dabura 12,207]

We don't care that much, but the fact that Holland was willing to carry some fighters last year, regardless of what norrisnick thinks, does suggest that the Wings cared somewhat about their toughness and willingness to stick up for teammates.

For the umpteenth time, no one -- with the possible exception of NN, but he knows what he's talking about -- is suggesting the Wings feel otherwise. Enforcers have their place in the Wings' system -- it's just not a big place. At all.

You're arguing against non-existent arguments.

[Heaton 1]

We don't care that much, but the fact that Holland was willing to carry some fighters last year, regardless of what norrisnick thinks, does suggest that the Wings cared somewhat about their toughness and willingness to stick up for teammates.

To abandon all that now would be a mistake.

Remember that Flyers game 2 years ago? It's situations like that night that I don't want to see repeated in the regular season.

Sure they cared, but it wasn't because anyone said anything, this wasn't a "We will show them!" type of move, they felt it would add an element that they wanted and Holland has shown he doesn't want to abandon that by offering contracts to both Downey and McCarty. You realize he did that right?

Oh the Flyers game 2 years ago? How'd they do that season? In fact, remember all of those Stanley Cups the Broad Street Bullies won?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Sure they cared, but it wasn't because anyone said anything, this wasn't a "We will show them!" type of move, they felt it would add an element that they wanted and Holland has shown he doesn't want to abandon that by offering contracts to both Downey and McCarty. You realize he did that right?

Oh the Flyers game 2 years ago? How'd they do that season? In fact, remember all of those Stanley Cups the Broad Street Bullies won?

I don't care how the Flyers did that year.

I was embarassed that night to be a Wings fan, even if it was O.K. with most posters here.

And that doesn't mean I wanted to be a Flyers fan, it just means it was sad to watch and I don't want it repeated. Thankfully, nothing like that happened last year.

[norrisnick 1]

We don't care that much, but the fact that Holland was willing to carry some fighters last year, regardless of what norrisnick thinks, does suggest that the Wings cared somewhat about their toughness and willingness to stick up for teammates.

To abandon all that now would be a mistake.

Remember that Flyers game 2 years ago? It's situations like that night that I don't want to see repeated in the regular season.

You mean the second game of a back-to-back with Joey McDonald in net? I wouldn't worry too much about that situation being repeated.

[Dabura 12,207]

I was embarassed that night to be a Wings fan, even if it was O.K. with most posters here.

Are you embarrassed now, watching he Wings baptize kids in the Cup while the Brashears of the world work on their short game?

[Heaton 1]

I don't care how the Flyers did that year.

I was embarassed that night to be a Wings fan, even if it was O.K. with most posters here.

And that doesn't mean I wanted to be a Flyers fan, it just means it was sad to watch and I don't want it repeated. Thankfully, nothing like that happened last year.

Some irrelevant game against an irrelevant team. I guarantee no one on the Wings remember that game, nor do the Flyers, it was meaningless.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Are you embarrassed now, watching he Wings baptize kids in the Cup while the Brashears of the world work on their short game?

Those two aren't related. Stop changing the topic.

No one is downplaying the Cup win.

Some irrelevant game against an irrelevant team. I guarantee no one on the Wings remember that game, nor do the Flyers, it was meaningless.

Thanks, I feel much better about that game already.

[Dabura 12,207]

Those two aren't related. Stop changing the topic.

They are, though. If the Wings were to change their winning philosophy in order to work more tough guys into the roster all for the sake of courting people's respect (which, correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to be in favor of doing), they wouldn't be playing to their strengths, and would, in all likelihood, weaken their chances of winning it all -- last season, this season, and for the foreseeable future.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

They are, though. If the Wings were to change their winning philosophy in order to work more tough guys into the roster all for the sake of courting people's respect (which, correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to be in favor of doing), they wouldn't be playing to their strengths, and would, in all likelihood, weaken their chances of winning it all -- last season, this season, and for the foreseeable future.

One or two roster spots for enforcers in the regular season wouldn't change anything.

In the playoffs, it all depends on who we play.

Anyway, it was fun arguing with you guys today, but I have to head out on this Saturday night. However, I will be back tomorrow so that we can prolong this thread some more.

Peace.

[Dabura 12,207]

One or two roster spots for enforcers in the regular season wouldn't change anything.

That's the point, in a way.

In the playoffs, it all depends on who we play.

Not really. The s*** would need to hit the fan in a big way for Babs to dress Downey for a playoff game.

As NN has pointed out, Drake and Mac (both being higher up on the totem pole than Downey) were lucky to get the minutes they played in the playoffs.

[Heaton 1]

Not really. The s*** would need to hit the fan in a big way for Babs to dress Downey for a playoff game.

There were like 7 total fights in the playoffs. I can't remember the exact number but during the Wings/Avs rivalry there was something like 5 total fights in the playoffs throughout all the years.

[norrisnick 1]

There were like 7 total fights in the playoffs. I can't remember the exact number but during the Wings/Avs rivalry there was something like 5 total fights in the playoffs throughout all the years.

Four. And that's if you count Mac's scrap with one of the Codys this past spring.

[Reilly 24]

In a salary cap world, I'm taking the skilled guy over the goon 10 out of 10 times. Enforcers are so worthless.

Edited July 27, 2008 by Reilly

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Lock the topic can we move on yet?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

In a salary cap world, I'm taking the skilled guy over the goon 10 out of 10 times. Enforcers are so worthless.

Thanks for the wonderful insight, Mr. Bettman.

[Swede40 0]

Thanks for the wonderful insight, Mr. Bettman.

The Wings feel the same way. There will never be a Brashear type on this team.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

The Wings feel the same way. There will never be a Brashear type on this team.

Brashear is actually a pretty talented enforcer, who has more talent than Downey or McCarty, both who played last year for the Red Wings.

Bad example by you.

[Heaton 1]

This thread has run it's course.