93 to the rafters!

[Konnan511 1,736]

Not going to lie Opie, you make some awesome points! The only thing I don't completely agree with, is the comparing of Jagr and Fedorov's offensive numbers, because Feds prided himself (I think) on his defensive abilities as well. Times when Jagr could "cheat" and try to get a goal, same holds for Shanny, Fedorov had to make sure he was in a good scoring position along with a sound defensive position as well.

Other wise I agree with just about everything else you said, because of your use of sound logic and reasoning and non-bias objection. Like I said, the only "disagreement" was the comparisons to Shanny and mainly Jagr because of the different types of players they were. That is all. End. Period. Done.

PS I love Neely too!!!! NHL 94 all the way!!

Edited July 25, 2008 by Konnan511

[norrisnick 1]

What HOFer forward has got in there because they won a Hart, Pearson, 2 Selke, 3 cups and had less than 500 goals? Got in based on Defensive ability as a forward?

I am not saying he will never make the Hall, I don't have that kind of power, what I am saying is that his numbers do not scream HOF to me, he has less than 500 goals and will in all likelihood end his career with under 550, what HOFer besides Neely and Anderson made the HOF with those numbers. Again there are two examples, two examples I don't believe are HOF worthy, just proves I can be wrong, big surprise huh?

I just don't see a guy in the HOF because he had a bunch of 70-80 point seasons with one 107 and one 120 thrown in there.

Look at his numbers compared to the ones I threw up, those are stone cold locks. Jagr's numbers destroy Feds, that is a stone cold lock first ballot HOFer.

<500 goals < 1200 assists do not scream HOF, but I will give you Cam Neely's numbers (again I am a fan of Cam) don't even remotely smell like HOF and he is in there, difference being the voters gave Neely some consideration because he was injured so severely for so much of what appeared to be an HOF career, Feds was never injured like that, he left Detroit and after one decent season became a 50 pt scorer. That will hurt him more than being the best (Raw talent wise) player on his team.

HOF is more about career numbers than it is about individual awards, those things are secondary factors, and if the voters are on the fence that may swing them, probably will swing them.

I think you guys are looking at it with a little bit of red wing glasses if you think <500 goals and < 1200 assists is stone cold lock HOF, when (again) Jagr who entered the league at the same time he did absolutely smokes his numbers. If Feds is in a class with a bunch of 400-500 goals scorers on his first ballot, he would win votes over them because of his individual awards, however if his class is Jagr, Shanny, Sakic and Recchi which is completely possible, Feds loses out just purely based on numbers.

Ever hear of Bob Gainey? First ballot HOF forward. His career spanned the highest scoring era ever (mid 70s through the 80s). He never once hit 50 points. 1160GP - 239G - 262A - 501P He was routinely doubled up in points by defensemen of his era.

Go to any hockey board you like and ask if Sergei Fedorov is a HOFer. Apart from maybe an Avs board or hockeyfights, I'm guessing the answer will be overwhelmingly, yes.

If Fedorov is not a HOFer than they really need to reconsider what the HOF is supposed to be.

[Opie 308]

Ever hear of Bob Gainey? First ballot HOF forward. His career spanned the highest scoring era ever (mid 70s through the 80s). He never once hit 50 points. 1160GP - 239G - 262A - 501P He was routinely doubled up in points by defensemen of his era.

Go to any hockey board you like and ask if Sergei Fedorov is a HOFer. Apart from maybe an Avs board or hockeyfights, I'm guessing the answer will be overwhelmingly, yes.

If Fedorov is not a HOFer than they really need to reconsider what the HOF is supposed to be.

5 stanley cups including 4 in a row, 4 Selke trophies, 1 conn smythe, 'C' of the Habs for 7 years. a Member of Arguably one of Hockey's greatest dynasties

3 stanley cups including 2 in a row, 2 selke trophies, 0 conn smythes, never a C.

I am not saying it won't happen, I am saying in my book he is not a stone cold lock.

To say he is a stone cold lock to me is a stretch. The Hall has become a numbers based induction, and if he goes in compared to the list of players I put in an early post he is not making it.

If Shanny, Jagr, Roenick, Recchi, and Sakic are on the ballot with Feds (Not a stretch at all, that easily could be a Ballot he faces) he will not make it into the Hall on that Ballot, I will guarantee that. Then once he misses the first Ballot he has to keep hoping that he doesn't face guys like Forsberg* (another Cam Neely induction), Selanne(552G), Neidermayer, Modano,etc.

AGAIN, let me say this, I am not acting or pretending my word is what will get him in, but my opinion is he has a tough bit of competition coming up and the separating factor would be numbers.

* I honestly don't think Floppa is HOF worthy by numbers either but I see the HOF putting him in, because of the ancient Tales of one Floppa the Great!

[toby91_ca 620]

What HOFer forward has got in there because they won a Hart, Pearson, 2 Selke, 3 cups and had less than 500 goals? Got in based on Defensive ability as a forward?

What player with those accolades is not in the hall? I haven't bothered to try and dig up such a player, so maybe they do exist, but I highly doubt it.

I know it is only your opinion, but I think your opinion in extremely flawed. How on earth can you simply look at offensive numbers to assess whether someone is worthy of the HOF? It makes absolutely no sense.

Someone already mentioned Gainey, I think he's a good example. This is a guy who maxed out at 47 points, his second best total of 45 came in the year Gretzky had 215. Even though his offensive stats were not impressive, check out this quote:

For the majority of his career he was regarded by many in the Soviet Union hockey system as the greatest hockey player ever. Bob Gainey was described as the world's best all-around player by legendary Soviet national team coach Anatoli Tarasov.

I can understand the argument for Fedorov not having his number retired in Detroit, but I cannot agree at all with any argument that questions whether he is worthy for the HOF or not.

Also, in terms of scoring stats, I'm pretty sure when he retires, he'll have the most goals and points by a Russian born player, which will, in fact, mean something. It is likley that he would only hold that distinguishment for a short period of time as Ovechkin will likely overtake both.

[alpo 0]

Thanks for the Metallica Mack_Attack.....for sure Wendel gave the leafs something to cheer about & had he been just a tad smarter & picked his spots instead of trying to be a a whole teams worth of toughness....he would have had much longer career.....c/w HOF numbers.

as for the subthread topic....Feds is for sure going to the hall of fame, maybe not 1st ballad, as the ffeild could be tight....but i see no reason why he would be excluded.

[norrisnick 1]

5 stanley cups including 4 in a row, 4 Selke trophies, 1 conn smythe, 'C' of the Habs for 7 years. a Member of Arguably one of Hockey's greatest dynasties

3 stanley cups including 2 in a row, 2 selke trophies, 0 conn smythes, never a C.

I am not saying it won't happen, I am saying in my book he is not a stone cold lock.

To say he is a stone cold lock to me is a stretch. The Hall has become a numbers based induction, and if he goes in compared to the list of players I put in an early post he is not making it.

If Shanny, Jagr, Roenick, Recchi, and Sakic are on the ballot with Feds (Not a stretch at all, that easily could be a Ballot he faces) he will not make it into the Hall on that Ballot, I will guarantee that. Then once he misses the first Ballot he has to keep hoping that he doesn't face guys like Forsberg* (another Cam Neely induction), Selanne(552G), Neidermayer, Modano,etc.

AGAIN, let me say this, I am not acting or pretending my word is what will get him in, but my opinion is he has a tough bit of competition coming up and the separating factor would be numbers.

* I honestly don't think Floppa is HOF worthy by numbers either but I see the HOF putting him in, because of the ancient Tales of one Floppa the Great!

Shanahan, Roenick, and Recchi have no bearing on Fedorov as they're behind him in HOF worthiness. Same with Forsberg, Selanne, Niedermayer, and Modano.

I guess it's odd to see a Wings' fan not realize how great Fedorov is and was. To me there isn't a shadow of doubt that he'll get inducted 3 years after hanging them up.

[Opie 308]

Shanahan, Roenick, and Recchi have no bearing on Fedorov as they're behind him in HOF worthiness. Same with Forsberg, Selanne, Niedermayer, and Modano.

I guess it's odd to see a Wings' fan not realize how great Fedorov is and was. To me there isn't a shadow of doubt that he'll get inducted 3 years after hanging them up.

Those players COULD very well have a lot to do with when or if Feds gets into the Hall, they don't just look at individuals and say yes or no, they have to vote for the people in the class, and his numbers are dwarfed by the numbers of the players I put up there except for the great Floppa.

I never said Feds wasn't one of the most talented players to ever lace them up, however the Hall is not based on Talent alone, and a bunch of 70 point seasons isn't screaming for induction, to me.

[Anomalously 0]

Opie's right -- and the best way to argue if Sergei is a first-ballot "stone cold lock" is looking at the players around him -- at his potential draft class.

The players in the league older than Fedorov that have a shot of getting in before Fedorov:

Chelios (second-oldest player in NHL history, 3 Norris trophies, 948 points in 1616 games, 3 Cups, 2873 PIM)

Roberts (1 Cup, 2533 PIM, 903 points in 1194 games, might have the respect of voters)

Shanahan (650 goals, the 19 consecutive 20-goal seasons, 1340 in 1490, Gordie Howe Tricks, Competition Committee, Olympic Gold)

Sakic (100 points in 6 seasons, 188 playoff points, 1629 in 1363, 623 goals, this is too obvious)

Blake (Norris, Cup, 1509 points in 1127, Olympic Gold)

Guys younger:

Brodeur (538 wins, 3 Cups, several records, 4 Vezinas)

Lidstrom (938 in 1252, 6 Norris Trophies, Olympic Gold)

Modano (all-time scoring, points leader for USA; more than 500 goals; 1283 in 1320)

Selanne (Calder; 1158 points in 1067; 552 goals)

Sundin (consistency, longest European captaincy, Leaf franchise records for goals, points; 1321 in 1305, 555 goals)

Jagr (this is another no-brainer, several more Harts, active leader in offensive categories)

Niedermayer (Gold, 663 in 1101, Norris, Cup)

Roenick (500 goal club, 1203 points)

Keep in mind that I'm not on the committee. It depends who is on the committee and who Fedorov retires with. Fedorov is older than a lot of guys on this list and yet some of the younger guys have accomplished more. Shanahan, Sakic, Blake, Modano, Selanne, Sundin, Jagr, and Roenick all have more points. All of those guys with more points except for Blake, a defenseman, have more goals. And Lidstrom is obviously a lock above Fedorov. If Fedorov retires with Lidstrom, Sakic, and Sundin, he's not a first-ballot HOFer.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Anomalously

[wingedwheeler12 0]

Fedorov will make it into the hall, that is something I can say with confidence, but we wont see #91 in the rafters, because ill tell you why, to get that honor, first, youd have to be almost a lifer, like Yzerman or Lidstrom, because heck we know hes going up in the rafters. A lifer that has done great things and has followed great lengths to Make the Red Wings Successful.

Fedorov did great things in Detroit, but I cannot see Mike Illitch Honoring him like that. because of the way he left, and his past history with his money disputes repeated themselves in detroit, and well, I really dont think that he needs to be up there, because really, to be up in those rafters , in oppinion only and as a wings fan, I feel you have to be a lifer, shanahan , sadly will never make it up there, he will be remembered like fedorov, but he wont be there either, then you have ozzie? its a good toss up, because im not sure if he will make it, but you know, im not an osgood geek, but the guy has done some good stuff in Detroit. and i wouldnt be surprised, because that stanley cup added another feather to the cap and hes proved his worthiness or so i feel.

but I think Sergei is one of those ones we wont forget, I liked him but i dont think thats enough.

anyways, i gotta scat for now, excuse the long drawn out words, take care all!

Edited July 28, 2008 by wingedwheeler12

[Dabura 12,207]

Feds is a lock for the Hall, but 91 won't be raised to the rafters. Bam.

[Turkey 0]

Feds goes into the Hall ages before Roenick or Sundin. The idea that either would go in before him seems sort of nuts to me.

[Opie 308]

Feds goes into the Hall ages before Roenick or Sundin. The idea that either would go in before him seems sort of nuts to me.

Are you OK? I ask because Mats Sundin, JR I will give you some people like him some hate him, he will be a Jim Rice type of deal.

Sundin?

Mats Sundin?

1305gp 555g 766a 1321pts, that Mats Sundin, the Captain of the Leafs for 11 years, the guy who has never had a full season below 72 points?

The only reason I can assume you are saying that is because Feds will hang them up before Roenick and Sundin in that case you would have to add Cheli to your list as well.

But if Feds and Sundin are on the Ballot and all of the HHOF voters have one vote I would be willing to bet a months salary that almost every single voter would vote Sundin before Feds.

[Turkey 0]

Never winning the prize has doomed some great players to be shut out of the Hall before. I predict that with Sundin as well. The only thing that might save him is being a Leaf. I sort of think those guys are the mafia of the NHL sometimes.

[norrisnick 1]

The only thing Mats has to his name is an Olympic gold. That's it.

Fedorov has 3 Cups and a shelf full of individual honors. He's got a Hart trophy ffs... He's not going to get cockblocked by Mats f'n Sundin.

If Lidstrom, Chelios, Sakic, and Brodeur all retire the same year Fedorov does, then he won't be a first ballot guy. I don't see that happening.

[Anomalously 0]

The only thing Mats has to his name is an Olympic gold. That's it.

Fedorov has 3 Cups and a shelf full of individual honors. He's got a Hart trophy ffs... He's not going to get cockblocked by Mats f'n Sundin.

If Lidstrom, Chelios, Sakic, and Brodeur all retire the same year Fedorov does, then he won't be a first ballot guy. I don't see that happening.

You honestly think that's the way the judges see it? Look at Modano, for example. If a life-long Wing is in (Lidstrom), think they'll pass up Modano for Fedorov?

Edited July 28, 2008 by Anomalously

[therock48880 14]

Feds is a lock for the Hall, but 91 won't be raised to the rafters. Bam.

Perfectly stated.

It's not that I don't think Feds is worthy of having his number retired. It's his relationship with mgt and the way the fans felt about him after her left that will keep him from going to the rafters. I mean, the guy is STILL booed at the Joe. I don't think the reception from the fans would be favorable if they tried to hold a retirement ceremony for him.

[norrisnick 1]

You honestly think that's the way the judges see it? Look at Modano, for example. If a life-long Wing is in (Lidstrom), think they'll pass up Modano for Fedorov?

To clarify... if Lidstrom is up for the HOF the same year as Fedorov, and Modano as well, that the voters would vote in Nick and Mo on the basis that Nick and Sergei were both Wings? That doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

Fedorov is and was a better player than Modano. Mike will not get voted in ahead of Fedorov. That simple.

[Opie 308]

Modano's stats

1320 528 755 1283

Better than Feds by a smidge, one of American Hockey's legends, if Feds and Modano are on the same Ballot I think the American Born thing puts Modo over the top. (I have type 3 sentences to explain why I don't mean that as a national thing, just what Modo represents to American Born Hockey players, but have failed all 3 times)

Plus the 50 more goals doesn't hurt.

I wouldn't be upset/surprised/offended by the fact Feds Beat Modo in, their stats are very similar, and feds has the individual awards that put him above Modo, like I said Modo has the American born thing going for him, other than that when they hang them up odds are they will be within a 10-20 goals of each other, very similar stats.

[norrisnick 1]

If you look at the fact that Mo has been in the league a bit longer you'd realize that his stats aren't better at all. And Fedorov is the Russian scoring champ. Has better individual and team accolades and better playoff numbers. At no point in Modano's career was he anywhere near being considered the best player in the world. Fedorov was. That counts for a lot.

[Opie 308]

If you look at the fact that Mo has been in the league a bit longer you'd realize that his stats aren't better at all. And Fedorov is the Russian scoring champ. Has better individual and team accolades and better playoff numbers. At no point in Modano's career was he anywhere near being considered the best player in the world. Fedorov was. That counts for a lot.

I knew that, I posted both of the players stats in this very thread and included in that was oh, guess what games played.

Question for you, is Feds the highest scoring Russian ever, or highest scoring in the NHL. It does matter, mainly because he has got to be the longest tenured Russian in the NHL, I would guess. By default that would give him and edge in that category. Not that that should count against him, just curious.

Again no where have I said he is a sure fire lock to not make the Hall, I just stated my opinion that he was not a stone cold lock to get in, because his numbers are not the greatest. Sure he was one of the greatest players for a couple of seasons, so wasn't Pavel Bure. Is he a stone cold lock into the Hall, he was a better player than Feds. However Bure's career was cut short by injuries.

[norrisnick 1]

I knew that, I posted both of the players stats in this very thread and included in that was oh, guess what games played.

Question for you, is Feds the highest scoring Russian ever, or highest scoring in the NHL. It does matter, mainly because he has got to be the longest tenured Russian in the NHL, I would guess. By default that would give him and edge in that category. Not that that should count against him, just curious.

Again no where have I said he is a sure fire lock to not make the Hall, I just stated my opinion that he was not a stone cold lock to get in, because his numbers are not the greatest. Sure he was one of the greatest players for a couple of seasons, so wasn't Pavel Bure. Is he a stone cold lock into the Hall, he was a better player than Feds. However Bure's career was cut short by injuries.

Pavel Bure was never a better player than Sergei Fedorov. There is far more to the game of hockey than scoring goals and scoring goals is the one and only edge that Bure has on Fedorov.

Find any forum to ask about Fedorov's HOF chances and you'll find a solid consensus putting him in. Keeping him out would be a farce.

[Turkey 0]

One of THN's writers has made the argument regarding Sundin's HoF chances for me right here.

Yes, I still stand by the assertion that Feds goes in before him.