93 to the rafters!

[omnipotent_hudler 0]

You're gonna be waiting for a long time. It won't happen.

the case against #91 being retired is as follows:

*whine* he left detroit!!! omg you cant do that!!!!!!

his numbers and his contributions to the franchise more than compare to the other numbers up there

[theman19 47]

the case against #91 being retired is as follows:

*whine* he left detroit!!! omg you cant do that!!!!!!

his numbers and his contributions to the franchise more than compare to the other numbers up there

yeah it's a shame YOU don't own the team. If guys who literally nearly gave there lives playing red wings hockey (vladdy, fisch) arn't up there, Sergi isn't going to sniff the rafters.

[eva unit zero 271]

Wendel Clark would be in the Hall of Fame if not for his injuries. They guy was a force out there physically, he could score, he could fight against any top enforcer in the game, and he was a great leader and clutch playoff performer.

Based on all those attributes, Wendel Clark was amazing as a player. Also, his popularity in Toronto was second to no one. If he doesn't get his number retired, then who the hell should?

Any team would kill to have a guy like Wendel Clark.

I would rather have Wendel Clark than Cam Neely, who is in the Hall. Neither belongs there unless you are considering what they would have done without injury, in which case both belong there.

Wendel Clark vs Cam Neely is like another early 90s comparison; Gary Roberts vs Kevin Stevens. All four guys were offensively dominant and capable of fighting anyone. One guy in each pair was slightly better offensively, but the other was MUCH better defensively AND could play multiple positions--and was the overall better player.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

the case against #91 being retired is as follows:

*whine* he left detroit!!! omg you cant do that!!!!!!

his numbers and his contributions to the franchise more than compare to the other numbers up there

Yes, his number shouldn't be retired just because he left and we're still whining about it.

The Wings can hang his jersey from the rafters right there next to Norm Ullman's.

[norrisnick 1]

Ullman compares somewhat to Shanahan. Not Fedorov. Sergei is right there with Lindsay, Delvecchio, and Abel in terms of importance to the Wings.

[eva unit zero 271]

Ullman compares somewhat to Shanahan. Not Fedorov. Sergei is right there with Lindsay, Delvecchio, and Abel in terms of importance to the Wings.

I would argue that Ullman compares well with Abel and Delvecchio...

[omnipotent_hudler 0]

Yes, his number shouldn't be retired just because he left and we're still whining about it.

The Wings can hang his jersey from the rafters right there next to Norm Ullman's.

yep this is essentially what everyone pretty much puts forth

[Opie 308]

Kris Draper is not the most popular Red Wing of his generation, like Wendel was and still is. Draper also isn't the scorer that Wendel was, nor the fighter or hitter. People often forget how dynamic of a scorer Wendel was in his day because his numbers are low due to how often he was injured. Wendel is the Toronto Maple Leafs all-time playoff goal leader.

Wendel Clark sacrificed his body, mind & soul for the Toronto Maple Leafs and the fans have always appreciated him for that. Along with Doug Gilmour, Wendel lead the Leafs out of the Harold Ballard era and made fans proud to be Leaf fans again. That's something that can never be repaid enough times.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EEltpSMTDPM

To give an example of how popular Wendel continues to be, here's a story from his final run as a Leaf, in the playoffs in 2000. The Leafs were in a game against the Devils and Brodeur was absolutely shutting the door. Wendel, relegated to 4th line duty at this point, jumped on the ice, took the puck down to Brodeur and ripped one of his famous wristshots off of the crossbar and out of play. This lead to a TV timeout, at which time, Wendel received a 2-minute standing ovation during the entire break.

As far as I know, Wendel Clark is the only player to get a standing ovation for hitting the crossbar.

I wasn't trying to downplay Clark's importance I was trying to draw a Red Wing Reference, but I was not going to say he is their Yzerman, I was more referring to the fact that he was a very very important Leaf, I was obviously not as aware of this fact as say oh I don't know, a Leaf fan. Either way I agree 100% with what you posted above.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I would argue that Ullman compares well with Abel and Delvecchio...

I think he does as well. The biggest deficit being he missed the Cup years. But otherwise I think he's right there with those guys in terms of importance and ability.

And in terms of playing style, I think he actually is a relevant comparison to Fedorov, only from a much earlier era. A great stick handler and two-way player, big in the playoffs.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

yep this is essentially what everyone pretty much puts forth

Honestly I'm a Fedorov fan and have not bitterness about how or why he left. He was one of my favorite Wings.

I just don't think he quite makes the cut to have his jersey hung from the rafters.

[Opie 308]

yep this is essentially what everyone pretty much puts forth

I defended my position on this with numbers in another huge thread so I won't do it again, and derail yet another thread.

But there are some legit reasons to not consider him HOF worthy starting with his Goal total and moving from there.

EDIT: Clarification, one of the major criteria (or at least assumed criteria) for wings to put a jersey in the rafters is HOF.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Opie

[norrisnick 1]

Honestly I'm a Fedorov fan and have not bitterness about how or why he left. He was one of my favorite Wings.

I just don't think he quite makes the cut to have his jersey hung from the rafters.

So you'd propose we only have 4 numbers up there? #9, #1, #19 and #5? I know Ilitch has a history of unretiring numbers but I doubt he pulls that trick with Ted, Sid, and Fats.

[norrisnick 1]

I defended my position on this with numbers in another huge thread so I won't do it again, and derail yet another thread.

But there are some legit reasons to not consider him HOF worthy starting with his Goal total and moving from there.

EDIT: Clarification, one of the major criteria (or at least assumed criteria) for wings to put a jersey in the rafters is HOF.

Who Fedorov?!?

He's a stone cold lock for a first ballot entry. No ifs, ands, or buts. It's beyond ridiculous to say he won't get in at all.

[SweWings 45]

91 to the rafters! Either hang the jersey - or the player...

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

So you'd propose we only have 4 numbers up there? #9, #1, #19 and #5? I know Ilitch has a history of unretiring numbers but I doubt he pulls that trick with Ted, Sid, and Fats.

where exactly did I say he should unretire those jerseys?

Not including Fedorov isn't equivalent with taking down the ones that are up there.

[norrisnick 1]

where exactly did I say he should unretire those jerseys?

Not including Fedorov isn't equivalent with taking down the ones that are up there.

I didn't say you did, hence the question.

If he isn't deemed worthy, the other three aren't either. So I was wondering whether you'd want them ripped down. Mr. I has a history of doing so.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I didn't say you did, hence the question.

If he isn't deemed worthy, the other three aren't either. So I was wondering whether you'd want them ripped down. Mr. I has a history of doing so.

I don't think that's necessarily true. We're talking about different players from very different eras, playing in essentially different leagues. By the standard that seems to be used these days for players of the modern era, I don't think Fedorov makes the cut.

And even if they weren't worthy, as they say, two wrongs don't make a right.

It's not totally out of the question his number would get retired. Fedorov was a great player and a valuable part of the Wings for many years, but I just don't see it happening.

Edited July 23, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[norrisnick 1]

I don't think that's necessarily true. We're talking about different players from very different eras, playing in essentially different leagues. By the standard that seems to be used these days, I don't think Fedorov makes the cut.

And even if they weren't worthy, as they say, two wrongs don't make a right.

It's not totally out of the question his number would get retired. Fedorov was a great player and a valuable part of the Wings for many years, but I just don't see it happening.

Standards? So being a cornerstone of 3 Cup wins and an elite player, winning multiple trophies, elite playoff performer, etc... doesn't cut it these days? And when I say cornerstone, I mean just that. Without him we don't win in '97, '98, or '02. He, Lidstrom, and Stevie were the three pillars of those teams. We don't win if any of them were gone.

I'd love to hear how that doesn't compare to the other guys up there. So since you don't think he makes the cut, I'd like to know your reasoning on what puts him on the negative side of the line.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Standards? So being a cornerstone of 3 Cup wins and an elite player, winning multiple trophies, elite playoff performer, etc... doesn't cut it these days? And when I say cornerstone, I mean just that. Without him we don't win in '97, '98, or '02. He, Lidstrom, and Stevie were the three pillars of those teams. We don't win if any of them were gone.

I'd love to hear how that doesn't compare to the other guys up there. So since you don't think he makes the cut, I'd like to know your reasoning on what puts him on the negative side of the line.

Honestly on paper he's got it, but I think it's some of the character things he did as a Wing (off the ice) that may keep his jersey from hanging from the rafters.

With the exception of Sawchuk, all the other players were Wings captains. Same goes for when Lids' number is up there. I just think the criteria includes an element of being a Red Wing through and through, and like it or not some of the things Sergei did during his career tarnish that.

Missing most of the '98 season due to his contract holdout is probably the biggest one. The offer sheet with Carolina. The difficult contract negotiations in 03 and his going to Anaheim of all places after losing to them in the first round. It all points to a generally acrimonious relationship he often had with management.

Edited July 24, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[norrisnick 1]

Honestly on paper he's got it, but I think it's some of the character things he did as a Wing (off the ice) that may keep his jersey from hanging from the rafters.

With the exception of Sawchuk, all the other players were Wings captains. Same goes for when Lids' number is up there. I just think the criteria includes an element of being a Red Wing through and through, and like it or not some of the things Sergei did during his career tarnish that.

Missing most of the '98 season due to his contract holdout is probably the biggest one. The offer sheet with Carolina. The difficult contract negotiations in 03 and his going to Anaheim of all places after losing to them in the first round. It all points to a generally acrimonious relationship he often had with management.

Character things? Like wanting to be paid on par with his contribution? Even after the offersheet he was underpaid. He was being lowballed hardcore. The '03 negotiations are the only contract talks I've ever heard of where the offers from management kept shrinking every time they came together. Kenny insulted Fedorov and then pushed him out the door.

You want an acrimonious relationship with management? Ted Lindsay?

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Character things? Like wanting to be paid on par with his contribution? Even after the offersheet he was underpaid. He was being lowballed hardcore. The '03 negotiations are the only contract talks I've ever heard of where the offers from management kept shrinking every time they came together. Kenny insulted Fedorov and then pushed him out the door.

You want an acrimonious relationship with management? Ted Lindsay?

You keep acting as if there should be equity and fairness over the decades as to who gets their numbers retired or not. I'm merely stating I don't think it will happen and why.

I'm not arguing whether his holding out was justified or not, just that it's an issue. It's the opinion of Ilitch and co. that matters relative to his jersey being retired and I bet they have a different view of the situation than you do.

Lindsay didn't have his number retired by the same owner and management that he had trouble with. For Fedorov, that would have to be the case, at least in the foreseeable future.

Edited July 24, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[Opie 308]

Who Fedorov?!?

He's a stone cold lock for a first ballot entry. No ifs, ands, or buts. It's beyond ridiculous to say he won't get in at all.

I wasn't going to derail, but seeing as the train is already off of the track.

WARNING: The following rant is laced with my opinion, if my opinion bothers anyone I apologize in advance, but this is my take on the subject at hand!

I stand by these numbers:

Feds:

1196gp 472 674 1146 (Not a ppg player)

Jagr:

1273gp 646 953 1599 (well over a ppg player)

Jagr is a stone cold first ballot HOF lock, Feds if he is able to return to form could hit 500 goals this year and maybe 1200 points, those are not HOF numbers let alone first ballot numbers. (BTW I choose to compare him to Jagr due to the fact they started in the NHL the same year, and he is a first ballot HOFer.)

There are players with 500-600 goals who are not in the HOF. And yeah sure Cam Neely is in the HOF, IMO doesn't belong and I am a huge Cam fan, the HOF should be for those who were far an away one of the best players (not talent) in the league for a long consistent period of time. He may have been top 10 in the league for a couple of seasons, but he has had more meh seasons than great seasons.

Look at Yzerman's stats, again stone cold lock first ballot HOF:

1514 692 1063 1755

Shanny:

1490 650 690 1340 (Not a ppg player but 650 goals will get him in)

Shanny is another stone cold lock for the hall.

TO ME, Feds numbers just don't add up to HOF, and that has nothing to do with liking or disliking the man, the myth, the player. I don't blame him for wanting to go after the year Holland took off of the table, but his less than stellar work ethic is the only thing I have against him.

While Feds had some great years with Detroit, phenomenal years (2 to be exact) he didn't continue it outside of Detroit, which at the time was being accused of paying for all star teams (not his fault, but a factor in voting) then he leaves Detroit and never really has another season like the ones he had in Detroit.

He had 2 years over 100 points, 3 years with 80-87 points, 7 years between 60-79, 4 years under 60 points.

Lets not all act like he had a bunch of 100 point years and another 6-8 years of 90 points, like say Jagr.

Think about the lines he played on, the Russian 5, Shanny - Yzerman - Feds, on that last line he is the 3rd best player.

IMO he is not a stone cold lock for the Hall, let alone first ballot lock. However I will contend that if Neely can make the Hall a lot more players should be in the Hall.

[norrisnick 1]

I wasn't going to derail, but seeing as the train is already off of the track.

WARNING: The following rant is laced with my opinion, if my opinion bothers anyone I apologize in advance, but this is my take on the subject at hand!

I stand by these numbers:

Feds:

1196gp 472 674 1146 (Not a ppg player)

Jagr:

1273gp 646 953 1599 (well over a ppg player)

Jagr is a stone cold first ballot HOF lock, Feds if he is able to return to form could hit 500 goals this year and maybe 1200 points, those are not HOF numbers let alone first ballot numbers. (BTW I choose to compare him to Jagr due to the fact they started in the NHL the same year, and he is a first ballot HOFer.)

There are players with 500-600 goals who are not in the HOF. And yeah sure Cam Neely is in the HOF, IMO doesn't belong and I am a huge Cam fan, the HOF should be for those who were far an away one of the best players (not talent) in the league for a long consistent period of time. He may have been top 10 in the league for a couple of seasons, but he has had more meh seasons than great seasons.

Look at Yzerman's stats, again stone cold lock first ballot HOF:

1514 692 1063 1755

Shanny:

1490 650 690 1340 (Not a ppg player but 650 goals will get him in)

Shanny is another stone cold lock for the hall.

TO ME, Feds numbers just don't add up to HOF, and that has nothing to do with liking or disliking the man, the myth, the player. I don't blame him for wanting to go after the year Holland took off of the table, but his less than stellar work ethic is the only thing I have against him.

While Feds had some great years with Detroit, phenomenal years (2 to be exact) he didn't continue it outside of Detroit, which at the time was being accused of paying for all star teams (not his fault, but a factor in voting) then he leaves Detroit and never really has another season like the ones he had in Detroit.

He had 2 years over 100 points, 3 years with 80-87 points, 7 years between 60-79, 4 years under 60 points.

Lets not all act like he had a bunch of 100 point years and another 6-8 years of 90 points, like say Jagr.

Think about the lines he played on, the Russian 5, Shanny - Yzerman - Feds, on that last line he is the 3rd best player.

IMO he is not a stone cold lock for the Hall, let alone first ballot lock. However I will contend that if Neely can make the Hall a lot more players should be in the Hall.

Stone. Cold. Lock.

Hart. Pearson. 2 Selkes. 3 Cups. Should have won the '97 Conn Smythe. 4 consecutive 20pt playoffs (NHL record). You talk about numbers, but Fedorov was as good defensively as he was offensively. For my money he's in the running for the best two-way forward ever. Were he so inclined he could have won himself a Norris trophy or two.

There is no possible argument to be made that keeps Fedorov out of the HOF.

And for your second to last comment there about lines. As a Red Wing he was never not the best player on his line. Ever.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Stone. Cold. Lock.

Hart. Pearson. 2 Selkes. 3 Cups. Should have won the '97 Conn Smythe. 4 consecutive 20pt playoffs (NHL record). You talk about numbers, but Fedorov was as good defensively as he was offensively. For my money he's in the running for the best two-way forward ever. Were he so inclined he could have won himself a Norris trophy or two.

There is no possible argument to be made that keeps Fedorov out of the HOF.

And for your second to last comment there about lines. As a Red Wing he was never not the best player on his line. Ever.

This we can agree on. Feds is in the HOF for sure. I'd be amazed if it wasn't on the first ballot.

[Opie 308]

Stone. Cold. Lock.

Hart. Pearson. 2 Selkes. 3 Cups. Should have won the '97 Conn Smythe. 4 consecutive 20pt playoffs (NHL record). You talk about numbers, but Fedorov was as good defensively as he was offensively. For my money he's in the running for the best two-way forward ever. Were he so inclined he could have won himself a Norris trophy or two.

There is no possible argument to be made that keeps Fedorov out of the HOF.

And for your second to last comment there about lines. As a Red Wing he was never not the best player on his line. Ever.

What HOFer forward has got in there because they won a Hart, Pearson, 2 Selke, 3 cups and had less than 500 goals? Got in based on Defensive ability as a forward?

I am not saying he will never make the Hall, I don't have that kind of power, what I am saying is that his numbers do not scream HOF to me, he has less than 500 goals and will in all likelihood end his career with under 550, what HOFer besides Neely and Anderson made the HOF with those numbers. Again there are two examples, two examples I don't believe are HOF worthy, just proves I can be wrong, big surprise huh?

I just don't see a guy in the HOF because he had a bunch of 70-80 point seasons with one 107 and one 120 thrown in there.

Look at his numbers compared to the ones I threw up, those are stone cold locks. Jagr's numbers destroy Feds, that is a stone cold lock first ballot HOFer.

<500 goals < 1200 assists do not scream HOF, but I will give you Cam Neely's numbers (again I am a fan of Cam) don't even remotely smell like HOF and he is in there, difference being the voters gave Neely some consideration because he was injured so severely for so much of what appeared to be an HOF career, Feds was never injured like that, he left Detroit and after one decent season became a 50 pt scorer. That will hurt him more than being the best (Raw talent wise) player on his team.

HOF is more about career numbers than it is about individual awards, those things are secondary factors, and if the voters are on the fence that may swing them, probably will swing them.

I think you guys are looking at it with a little bit of red wing glasses if you think <500 goals and < 1200 assists is stone cold lock HOF, when (again) Jagr who entered the league at the same time he did absolutely smokes his numbers. If Feds is in a class with a bunch of 400-500 goals scorers on his first ballot, he would win votes over them because of his individual awards, however if his class is Jagr, Shanny, Sakic and Recchi which is completely possible, Feds loses out just purely based on numbers.

Edited July 25, 2008 by Opie