Holland Admits the Obvious

[TheWestWing 71]

Lebda stays. Pylon goes. Ericsson gets a shot.

(I decoded Kenny's msg with my secret Jr. GM decoder ring).

[Dabura 12,206]

eva is correct.

For what Lilja's making, one would expect his assets to be above and beyond those of Lebda and the scrubs. But they're not. Moreover, having Stuart, Kronwall and an increasingly ready Ericsson makes Lilja's package -- specifically, his size and physicality -- pretty much expendable. Moving Lilja would free up a good sum of $ which could then be put towards retaining the others.

For these reasons, I think it should be Lilja -- and not at the trade deadline, but now.

[StevieY9802 6]

Are we really having this discussion again? It's not news anymore. Holland has said it before. Your 23 players are going to look something like this:

Dats - Zetterberg - Homer

Mule - Fil - Hossa

Cleary - Draper - Sammy

Huds - Kopecky - Maltby

Lidstrom - Rafalski

Kronner - Stuart

Lebda - Lilja

Chelios - Meech or Quincey

Your 13th forward will be either Helm, Mac(if he signs a 2 way deal) or Downey. My guess is Downey or Mac. With that lineup it might be hard to keep Helm in the lineup consistantly. Now I know people in here will say Malts should be benched or cut or traded, thats what YOU would do not what this team will do. With having the option to send Helm down I think they do that. Maybe I'm wrong but I think they would want Mac or Downey as the 13th because they would have no problem sitting them down for long stretches. They seem to like Malts still because he can still play the pk. And Helm would get more time in GR. As for Dman I say Meech but it could be Quincey we'll see in about a month. I don't think it's Lilja. They just signed him and they like him. Just because people here don't doesn't mean he's gone. I understand that he makes more money than the other 2 but I don't see it happening

Edited August 23, 2008 by StevieY9802

[jbrwing21 0]

Lebda > Meech

I second that!

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Trading Lilja does make the most sense financially, but I would be a little surprised if the Wings pulled the trigger on that trade since they signed him a couple months ago to a two year deal. And as unbelievable as it may seem to us Detroit fans, Lilja probably could have gotten more on the open market than he did signing with the Wings.

[Dabura 12,206]

What's surprising is that the Wings even made that deal in the first place. While he might be a top-4 guy on other clubs, the Wings really don't need him -- especially considering what they have to pay him.

I wouldn't be surprised to see someone else go, but it should be Lilja going out the door.

[eva unit zero 271]

Trading Lilja does make the most sense financially, but I would be a little surprised if the Wings pulled the trigger on that trade since they signed him a couple months ago to a two year deal. And as unbelievable as it may seem to us Detroit fans, Lilja probably could have gotten more on the open market than he did signing with the Wings.

The thing is, Lilja cannot be considered a significant upgrade - if he's an upgrade at all - over any of the guys he's competing against.

Here's the guys it won't be:

Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart.

They're top four and staying that way.

Meech

He doesn't make enough; the Wings have just barely over $400k in cap space and need to have, at absolute MINIMUM, $950k to sign two players to contracts. They currently have Quincey and Chelios as defensemen without deals, and 22 players signed. So the simplest solution is to move one defenseman who makes no less than $550k, which isn't Meech as he makes $483k.

So the Wings have the option to get rid of:

Lilja, Lebda, Chelios, or Quincey.

Lebda is better, younger, and cheaper than Lilja. Babcock seems to prefer Lebda to Lilja when he has to choose one.

Chelios may not be as effective a skater as Lilja anymore, but he will cost half as much and contribute just as much on the ice, not even factoring in his experience advantage.

Quincey is a similar stay-at-home type with a physical edge, but should be significantly cheaper, is much younger, and provides much better potential.

Lilja provides no significant advantage over any of these three that is not balanced by an equal or greater disadvantage. Lilja is also by far the most expensive of the group. I expect a situation where there is no trade before camp, and Lilja is given every opportunity to prove he belongs on the team. But ultimately, they will decide he is the one that should go, and will ask him what his preferences are as far as a trade. They will attempt to trade him, and failing that will waive him.

But suggesting trading just Meech is pointless, as we have to clear some cap space, not just drop a player.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

The thing is, Lilja cannot be considered a significant upgrade - if he's an upgrade at all - over any of the guys he's competing against.

Here's the guys it won't be:

Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart.

They're top four and staying that way.

Meech

He doesn't make enough; the Wings have just barely over $400k in cap space and need to have, at absolute MINIMUM, $950k to sign two players to contracts. They currently have Quincey and Chelios as defensemen without deals, and 22 players signed. So the simplest solution is to move one defenseman who makes no less than $550k, which isn't Meech as he makes $483k.

So the Wings have the option to get rid of:

Lilja, Lebda, Chelios, or Quincey.

Lebda is better, younger, and cheaper than Lilja. Babcock seems to prefer Lebda to Lilja when he has to choose one.

Chelios may not be as effective a skater as Lilja anymore, but he will cost half as much and contribute just as much on the ice, not even factoring in his experience advantage.

Quincey is a similar stay-at-home type with a physical edge, but should be significantly cheaper, is much younger, and provides much better potential.

Lilja provides no significant advantage over any of these three that is not balanced by an equal or greater disadvantage. Lilja is also by far the most expensive of the group. I expect a situation where there is no trade before camp, and Lilja is given every opportunity to prove he belongs on the team. But ultimately, they will decide he is the one that should go, and will ask him what his preferences are as far as a trade. They will attempt to trade him, and failing that will waive him.

But suggesting trading just Meech is pointless, as we have to clear some cap space, not just drop a player.

I agree he's not an upgrade over those guys, at least not at his salary.

I don't see how Babcock seems to prefer Lebda. Lilja averaged more minutes per game than Lebda even strength, and a ton more minutes on the PK. Lebda is younger and cheaper than Lilja, but not necessarily better, other than the power play.

Chelios is cheaper, though I'm starting to wonder if he even contributes more on the ice. Lilja could play a full season if called upon, Chelios not so much. It depends on if the Chelios we saw late in the playoffs was due to injury, or just age.

The biggest drawback with Lilja is his salary. Like I said, it makes the most sense on paper, but I'd still be a little surprised the Wings did a sign and trade. We'll see what happens.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

The one advantage that Lilja has on Meech and Lebda is his PK and shot blocking skills. Other than that he is the one who should go. Meech should be the one who stays since his salary will not hurt the cap as much as players with more NHL experience (Lebda and Lilja).

[eva unit zero 271]

I agree he's not an upgrade over those guys, at least not at his salary.

I don't see how Babcock seems to prefer Lebda. Lilja averaged more minutes per game than Lebda even strength, and a ton more minutes on the PK. Lebda is younger and cheaper than Lilja, but not necessarily better, other than the power play.

Chelios is cheaper, though I'm starting to wonder if he even contributes more on the ice. Lilja could play a full season if called upon, Chelios not so much. It depends on if the Chelios we saw late in the playoffs was due to injury, or just age.

The biggest drawback with Lilja is his salary. Like I said, it makes the most sense on paper, but I'd still be a little surprised the Wings did a sign and trade. We'll see what happens.

Lilja makes the most sense...the sign and trade thing is the question there.

The thing is; that puts the decision as far as 'who must go' down to Lebda/Chelios/Quincey, with Quincey and Chelios still needing contracts. The ONLY solution at that point is Lebda goes, and Chelios and Quincey sign for an average cap hit of less than $525k. There is no other way without giving up multiple roster players to make the 23-man roster and the salary cap.

So which is it, Lilja or Lebda? They're the only realistic options for a single player move to complete the roster.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Anyone who says Lilja should be traded is clearly anti-enforcer.

[Kp-Wings 3]

You contradicted yourself. Lebda is the fastest skater on the team (along with Drapes and Helm). In today's NHL that is a very valuable asset to have. I wouldn't be upset to see him traded but give him some credit. He's a reliable #6 D-man, handles the puck well and is very fast.

I stand by what I said. Being able to skate fast is not that great of an asset if you can't do anything else. Ex: Konstantin Koltsov, Martin Samuelsson, etc.

We have other better players (Quincey, Ericsson, Meech, etc.) that will be, or are already, NHL ready. It's time to give them a shot. Since I know Holland will never cut the cord with Chelios unless Chelios leaves on his own, it'll have to be one of either Lebda or Lilja, and it makes a lot more sense to get rid of Lebda.

[LIDDYGIBBY5 1]

Lebda brings nothing to the team that virtually any other player we have in the minors can't already do. He was only here in the first place to fill a spot because Quincey and Meech weren't NHL ready at that point in time (and because Andy Delmore sucked so much that he couldn't be given the job). At the very absolute least with Lilja (God knows I hate him, but in this one bleak moment I will defend him) he has size, and blocks shots. Can you say the same thing about Lebda?

Lebda should go. He is the easiest to replace out of the whole group, especially when you consider Meech is almost a carbon copy, minus the speed.

Lebda has a very desirable salary to keep around for a #6 D-men

[LIDDYGIBBY5 1]

Anyone who says Lilja should be traded is clearly anti-enforcer.

You wouldn't be looking to start this argument up again in a different thread would you?

[akustyk 84]

Lebda has a lot to give. he's rounded his game compared to last year and shown

he can be dependable even if not spectacular.

and we definitely are good with his speed.

Quincey was fine in 2007 playoffs but somehow didn't get a good chance this season.

I guess the team (Kenny, Babcock, ...) is not really sold on him

as for Meech... he's worth keeping and been given a chance once in a while

(*cough... during the usualpossible January/February wave of injuries )

Lilja stays. he has some nice skills to be used in this team and it's better to

have known evil behind the blue line

[eva unit zero 271]

Lebda has a lot to give. he's rounded his game compared to last year and shown

he can be dependable even if not spectacular.

and we definitely are good with his speed.

Quincey was fine in 2007 playoffs but somehow didn't get a good chance this season.

I guess the team (Kenny, Babcock, ...) is not really sold on him

as for Meech... he's worth keeping and been given a chance once in a while

(*cough... during the usualpossible January/February wave of injuries )

Lilja stays. he has some nice skills to be used in this team and it's better to

have known evil behind the blue line

Well, the Wings have 9 NHL defensemen including Chelios and Quincey, who Holland intends to sign. Currently, the Wings only have $400k in cap space. So if Chelios and Quincey sign league-minimum contracts ($475k), the Wings are over the cap by $550k and over the roster limit by one player. They plan on trading or waiving a defenseman as they intend to carry 8 defensemen. If Chelios and Quincey signed such deals, they would fall with Meech into the 'doesn't make enough' group; they need to get rid of one roster player and at least $550k in cap space. Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, Lebda, and Lilja all would qualify. It's likely that Chelios and Quincey will be slightly above the league minimum, and Holland probably doesn't want to sit right up against the cap. So Lebda's $650k is probably also in the 'doesn't make enough' group. Lilja is not only the best fit on paper as far as this discussion...he's really the only fit. If your argument is that we can't trade Lilja because he just signed, well then Stuart is also exempt. So which of Lidstrom, Rafalski, or Kronwall would you like to trade for no roster player coming back? Because that's what you've got left if you can't trade or waive Lilja or Stuart based on their signing this summer.

Lilja goes. He's the only defenseman we can afford to lose without getting an equal player back in the deal who makes enough that his departure clears cap space to fill out the roster.

[akustyk 84]

Lilja goes. He's the only defenseman we can afford to lose without getting an equal player back in the deal who makes enough that his departure clears cap space to fill out the roster.

yeah, with salary cap to fit in I can see Lilja gone. I'm not sure if I quite

all you wrote (it's almost midnight here and I had a long day...) but if the

choice is mandatory and is between value vs. salary - Lilja can be chosen

here.

my point was he has some pluses which Babcock liked. we all used to

bash him for defensive lapses but we also saw a lot of him playing PK

in playoffs and he was mostly great in this position. I'd certainly be OK

if there was a chance to keep him even if his ice time would be pretty

limited.

but under salary cap you can't have it all...

[lfd250 1]

I'm going with Lids, he's getting old, pretty much sucks as a D man. Do you see how the stupid the rest of this thread is. Every player has something we need. Each of you is just voting for the player you like best and bashing the player that is taking your guys ice time. Truth is we are overloaded in D, some people will be upset that their "man" is gone. Leave Erickson down in GR because we can. Cheli SHOULD be done after this year. Everyone wants to play, so give him the ice time down there. Like it's been stated, there will be injuries so we will need the extra guys. Trust the brains in the Wings, they've done OK so far NO? Point is some of you will be happy, some will be angry. Don't get your panties in a bunch until it happens. Then let the "I can't believe we got rid of _______" threads go.

[Dabura 12,206]

Lilja stays. he has some nice skills to be used in this team

I'm going to echo eva again. Lilja is not considerably better than any of the guys he's competing with, yet his paycheck outclasses theirs. The team currently has a logjam on the back end and a less-than-desirable cap situation. These problems would be solved by shipping Lilja and using the cash saved to retain the other guys. Lebda may not be infinitely better than Lilja, but he gets the job done for 650. Meech has a good package. I like Quincey's size and the potential he showed in his postseason stint. Ericsson has great size and bona fide top-4 potential within this organization, and he could probably step into the lineup this season and do alright for himself.

Lilja should go.

[eva unit zero 271]

yeah, with salary cap to fit in I can see Lilja gone. I'm not sure if I quite

all you wrote (it's almost midnight here and I had a long day...) but if the

choice is mandatory and is between value vs. salary - Lilja can be chosen

here.

my point was he has some pluses which Babcock liked. we all used to

bash him for defensive lapses but we also saw a lot of him playing PK

in playoffs and he was mostly great in this position. I'd certainly be OK

if there was a chance to keep him even if his ice time would be pretty

limited.

but under salary cap you can't have it all...

The Wings have a couple forwards who could be cut loose if it was just about salary; the problem is that they also have too many defensemen. If Chelios were retiring, the Wings would still have to figure out a way to sign Quincey and fit under the cap regardless of the fact that they wouldn't be 'forced' to drop a player due to the roster limit.

[eva unit zero 271]

I'm going with Lids, he's getting old, pretty much sucks as a D man. Do you see how the stupid the rest of this thread is. Every player has something we need. Each of you is just voting for the player you like best and bashing the player that is taking your guys ice time. Truth is we are overloaded in D, some people will be upset that their "man" is gone. Leave Erickson down in GR because we can. Cheli SHOULD be done after this year. Everyone wants to play, so give him the ice time down there. Like it's been stated, there will be injuries so we will need the extra guys. Trust the brains in the Wings, they've done OK so far NO? Point is some of you will be happy, some will be angry. Don't get your panties in a bunch until it happens. Then let the "I can't believe we got rid of _______" threads go.

One of them has to go; Holland intends to sign both Quincey and Chelios. That will give us 9 defensemen and 24 players who cannot be sent down. Those two are the only players not currently signed in that group, and we are only $400k under the cap. The Wings intend to carry 8 defensemen. Assumedly, this means they will be removing one of the current defensemen and retaining the other 8. As I stated above, it CANNOT be Meech, and will not be any of the top four. This leaves Lilja, Lebda, Chelios, and Quincey. Lebda likely also does not make enough. Chelios and Quincey are currently unsigned players, and the Wings do not have enough cap space to add even one of them. Conceivably, the Wings could lose Lebda and sign both Chelios and Quincey, but that would put them very close to the cap.

Lilja is the only logical answer to this puzzle that involves a single player departing. It has nothing to do with his abilities as far as hatred, as he is a legitimate third-pairing defenseman. The reasoning is that there are several other legit third-pairing defensemen who make considerably less money, and even if Lilja is a slightly better player than Quincey, Meech, or Lebda...the Wings would have to cut loose additional players to retain Lilja over those three, which is not true in reverse. I think keeping our forward corps intact and only losing Lilja from the blueline is better than losing one of Lebda/Quincey/Meech as well as losing a guy like Hudler or Samuelsson for nothing. Lilja is a decent defenseman, but he's not so much better than Lebda/Quincey/Meech that he justifies cutting Hudler or Sammy or someone else loose for nothing back on the roster. In the short term it's not a good deal, and in the long term it's not a good deal.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Lilja's paycheck is well deserved. He hits, fights, kills penalties, blocks shots, and reminds me of a great Viking leader out there on the ice. Also, he's got cool tattoos and looks great in a suit.

Now which one of those things I just mentioned can Lebda do? That's right, he can't do anything but skate fast, which even then doesn't really help him offensively in any way.

Bottom line is that there's a reason why Lilja makes more money than the other jobbers everyone has mentioned. He's better than them.

[eva unit zero 271]

Lilja's paycheck is well deserved. He hits, fights, kills penalties, blocks shots, and reminds me of a great Viking leader out there on the ice. Also, he's got cool tattoos and looks great in a suit.

Now which one of those things I just mentioned can Lebda do? That's right, he can't do anything but skate fast, which even then doesn't really help him offensively in any way.

Bottom line is that there's a reason why Lilja makes more money than the other jobbers everyone has mentioned. He's better than them.

Well, it's clear you favor keeping Lilja. So which top four defenseman do you propose we trade for picks; Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, or Stuart? I look forward to your explanation of how Lilja brings more to the team than whomever you choose.

[WingNut 25 5]

That's a tough call. I also like what I saw from Meech and he can be used as a forward.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Well, it's clear you favor keeping Lilja. So which top four defenseman do you propose we trade for picks; Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, or Stuart? I look forward to your explanation of how Lilja brings more to the team than whomever you choose.

I don't know why you even mentioned those names. I thought the argument was whether Lilja should be kept over guys like Lebda, Meech and Quincey. Why do we have to trade any of our top 4 defensemen to keep Lilja?