Franzen vs. Hossa

[toby91_ca 620]

Hossa scored 29 goals between Atlanta and Pittsburgh last season. He has 2-40 goal years and 4-30 goal years in his 9 years in the NHL. Hes a nice mix of scoring and defensive responsibility. Hes not going to win a ton of battles on 50-50 pucks behind the net though.

I think it would be more accurately described as this:

- 9 years in the league where he has 2, 40+ goal seasons and 6, 30+ goals seasons. He had another 2 seasons where he scored 29 goals.

- so that basically means that apart from his rookie season, where he scored 15 goals in 60 games, he's had 8 straight seasons of 29 or more goals. Also, he missed a few games in those 29 goal seasons, had he played 82 games each of those years, based on a gpg stat, he would have averaged 32 goals for those 2 years.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

On the other hand, what a story it'd be for all 3 of our future UFA's to defer money so that they can all stay here.

[toby91_ca 620]

With the cap possibly raising next year, there will be a couple options available.

I'm not sure how it's possible, without some new major TV deal that is going to bring in revenues.

I think there is a real chance the cap falls next year just as much as there is a chance it rises. If you ask me, if the cap goes up again, I'm thinking something shading is going on, where are all the new revenues coming from that were not there a few years ago?

They need to increase real revenues just to make up for lost revenues due to the weakening of the Cdn dollar.

[toby91_ca 620]

On the other hand, what a story it'd be for all 3 of our future UFA's to defer money so that they can all stay here.

Deferring money would not help them stay here, unless you mean they play for less. If you mean they defer money meaning they will get paid their contracted amount, just later, that will not help.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Deferring money would not help them stay here, unless you mean they play for less. If you mean they defer money meaning they will get paid their contracted amount, just later, that will not help.

What I meant was signing contracts for less than what they'd get elsewhere or what we think they'll be commanding come July 1.

[brutus 0]

Um, didn't Pitt offer more money to Hossa and for more years? I don't remember exactly how much the Pens offered Hossa, but it was at least what the Wings are paying him and I'm pretty sure it was more. And it was a mutli-year deal. Turning down more guaranteed money doesn't sound like the mark of someone who's only in it for the money.

And I can't believe this is a serious debate. Hossa is one of the 15 best, probably 10 best players in the world. Franzen is not. Not even close. I agree with Eva's assessment of anyone who would take Franzen over Hossa.

Damn! As much as I do not like you personally and feel like you are an....well better left unsaid...I must agree with you on this...feels like am I am agreeing with satan...I hate myself now

Anyone who would take Franzen over Hossa is delusional, hell I would give up Franzen, Sammy, Lilja, and Hudler to keep Hossa. There are plenty of young guys coming up or that will be available to fill those roles. Giving the option of having a 3rd superstar forward on the team?!?!?...how many teams have the posibility if having 3 of (arguably) the top 20-25 forwards in the game...let alone the best defense...not many I can assure you.

brutus

[brutus 0]

Eva, you poseur. All this time you pretend to be analytical and yet here you are faced with an economic challenge and totally punt and lace your post with intimidating and unfounded fallacies. The cost of Hossa vs. Franzen factoring in production, contribution to the team effort... can't be such a slam dunk when one will cost twice as much as the other. Doesn't that wet your little stats geek whistle a little? Now don't just go and give us an easy salary to points ratio, any fool can divide. Let's see what you got.

Actually Hossa (careeerwise) produces more that twice the output of Franzen per game...thus a doubling of the salary of Franzen, in my opinion, is still worth it...not to mention Hossa is certianly not a defensive liability...not sure what else you count as "contribution to the team" but I think offense and defense sum it up pretty nicely...unless you mean "contribution to the team" by bringing donuts, and in that case I have no information for you, and you may very well be correct, he might not bring donuts. ...therefore...if you cant see the benefits then...I do not know what to tell you but snarky comments do not further your cause.

Also to those who think Hossa somehow slips during the playoffs his pts/gm only goes down .1 or so in the playoffs. Much better than many players.

brutus

[chrisdetroit 189]

First off, Eva, those are some pretty harsh words. They remind me of what a preteen would say when he has no other argument. Uncalled for if you ask me.

Most of you guys that would keep Hossa, fail to see the big picture. The Red Wings have great players, but what really makes them the best of the best is balance. Its what makes them so hard to play against. They have highly skilled puck possession type players among the forwards, combined with gritty, hard nosed hockey players. You have a guy like Datsyuk who is a wizard with the puck, a guy like Homer who can barely skate but is the best net front man in the game. You have guys like Draper and Helm who can fly and guys like McCarty who wont win any races but will stick up for any teammate, anytime. You have big, powerful guys who use thier size to score like Franzen, and shifty, little guys like Hudler who do the same.

Franzen contributes mightily to this balance. Hes big and strong. He doesnt go looking for trouble but handles himself well in the scrums. He makes us tough to play against. Last year he scored 28 goals in 30 games. Im not sure if that was a fluke and thats why I said it depends on how his season goes in the original post. But if hes going to be a 30 goal scorer in this league, and I think he will easily surpass 30 on Zetterbergs line, Id prefer to keep him and his size.

Hossa scored 29 goals between Atlanta and Pittsburgh last season. He has 2-40 goal years and 4-30 goal years in his 9 years in the NHL. Hes a nice mix of scoring and defensive responsibility. Hes not going to win a ton of battles on 50-50 pucks behind the net though.

I love Hossas game, but Franzen brings something he never will and we desperately need.

Well said.

Hossa is similar to Pavel and Hank and we already have 2 superstars in that role. As far as Big Strong power forwards that play around the net we only have Homer and he is 36. We need Franzen more than we need Hossa.

I'm sure all the OMG Hossa fans are going to flame out now that I said that but that's my opinion. And just for the record, I'm not an idiot a homer even if I have a different opinion than the OMG Hossa fans.

[Opie 308]

Mule is not the equivalent of a power forward that Hossa is as an all around forward.

You mean to tell me that Hossa with an all around game (5v5, pk, pp, defensive zone play, premier scorer, all of the things Z and Dats are) is not what you would do if you were presented with the whole team but one forward spot sewn up, you would take an average power forward (call me when he puts up serious numbers for more than a couple of months) over a top 20 talent in the league.

The question wasn't posed, you have to fit the two in the cap, you need to fill out your roster.

It was, Hossa V Mule who do you take. I have to agree with Eva's eval (alliteration intended) just not with his word choice.

Homer is 36, Franzen is 28. Homer has multiple years of being the best at what he does. Franzen set a record for scoring in a month, he could become the next Jim Carrey, one hit wonder if you will.

s*** can Franzen even duplicate what he did last year, what if he starts of real slow and Babs puts Sammy on that wing, or goes Z Huds Flip, or even Cleary because Mule is lacking the kick (pun intended) the Wings are looking from him.

Those questions, even though you may want to pretend, don't exists with Hossa, he is a proven NHL scorer and all around player. If Mule sniffs top 50 players in the league in his career I will s*** my pants. Hossa is more than that already.

Franzen has too many unknowns, Hossa is as close to a stone cold lock for 70-80 points a year. Without Datsyuk or a player of that caliber on his wing!

Hossa and Franzen are a year apart in age, Hossa is a proven commodity, Franzen is unproven and hopefully he will be the power forward you claim him to be.

There is a reason there is an OMG Hossa is a wing group (not that I am in it, but how can I not be, the wings have 3 of the top 20 forwards in the game!) and not an OMG Franzen is the best power forward in the game group.

With Franzen there are a ton of if's, with Hossa there is one, will he be healthy. And even then history shows us no reason to panic, but it is still cause for concern.

Hossa has had multiple years of great play, Franzen has had multiple months of great play, all while being a year different in age.

If you were comparing keeping Hossa to keeping a 24 year old Johan Franzen who just came off of this year I think you would have a lot more valid argument. But they are so close in age and so far apart in skill that the comparison is really not even a comparison.

[dallas27 7]

The question was who would you rather keep, Mule or Franzen.

How can you make a choice on who you'd rather "keep" when the season hasn't even started yet?

Because Hossa is a better hockey player, it's a simple question with a simple answer.

Lets say Franzen has a terrible season and only scores like 15 goals, while Hossa leads the team in points or something. Not a tough choice there, obviously most people would want to keep Hossa even at a much higher salary.

But let's say both Franzen and Hossa score 30+ goals and are very close in points...then the choice on who to "keep" would be a little easier. Most people would probably say keep Franzen since he's producing about the same with a much smaller cap hit.

Ok. Let's also say that Hank only ends up with 50 points this season and his contract is 1/09834588709 of what it would have been. Let's also say Osgood gets a shutout every game. How insane would that be? I'm feeling a little crazy today, let's say the Lions win every game from here on out and win the Superbowl. Do you see where I am going with this?

It's like picking between two new cars....most people want a test drive before they decide. Call it a "cop-out" all you want.

Car analogy eh. It's not like picking between two cars at all. But, I can do that. Picking between Franzen and Hossa is like picking between a Focus and a Ferrari. But go ahead, you test drive the Focus to see how you like it compared to the Ferrari.

Edited September 15, 2008 by dallas27

[toby91_ca 620]

First off, Eva, those are some pretty harsh words. They remind me of what a preteen would say when he has no other argument. Uncalled for if you ask me.

Most of you guys that would keep Hossa, fail to see the big picture. The Red Wings have great players, but what really makes them the best of the best is balance. Its what makes them so hard to play against. They have highly skilled puck possession type players among the forwards, combined with gritty, hard nosed hockey players. You have a guy like Datsyuk who is a wizard with the puck, a guy like Homer who can barely skate but is the best net front man in the game. You have guys like Draper and Helm who can fly and guys like McCarty who wont win any races but will stick up for any teammate, anytime. You have big, powerful guys who use thier size to score like Franzen, and shifty, little guys like Hudler who do the same.

Franzen contributes mightily to this balance. Hes big and strong. He doesnt go looking for trouble but handles himself well in the scrums. He makes us tough to play against. Last year he scored 28 goals in 30 games. Im not sure if that was a fluke and thats why I said it depends on how his season goes in the original post. But if hes going to be a 30 goal scorer in this league, and I think he will easily surpass 30 on Zetterbergs line, Id prefer to keep him and his size.

Hossa scored 29 goals between Atlanta and Pittsburgh last season. He has 2-40 goal years and 4-30 goal years in his 9 years in the NHL. Hes a nice mix of scoring and defensive responsibility. Hes not going to win a ton of battles on 50-50 pucks behind the net though.

I love Hossas game, but Franzen brings something he never will and we desperately need.

Keep Hossa and trade him for 2 Franzen's then.

[BlakChamber 8]

Damn! As much as I do not like you personally and feel like you are an....well better left unsaid...I must agree with you on this...feels like am I am agreeing with satan...I hate myself now

I'm not sure what I've said to get compared to satan, but I'm glad we can agree on this

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Bottom line to this debate, if Franzen doesn't go on the tear he did from March on we wouldn't even be discussing this.

Does Franzen have the potential to be an absolute beast: Absolutely. Is Hossa the much better all-around player: Without a question.

The answer is Hossa.

[wingslionstigers 12]

Hossa is not going to be playing with us after this season get over it.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Hossa is not going to be playing with us after this season get over it.

Thanks for popping in with a comment that had nothing to do with this debate.

[Opie 308]

Hossa is not going to be playing with us after this season get over it.

Were you singing a similar tone when he was a UFA, if no than you mind friend have a gift, take Miss Cleo's job, if you were saying the same thing, you were wrong once already!

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Hossa is not going to be playing with us after this season get over it.

I don't think anybody was ranting our crying our being sour about him possibly not being with Wings next year to begin with.

[Dabura 12,207]

Well said.

Hossa is similar to Pavel and Hank and we already have 2 superstars in that role. As far as Big Strong power forwards that play around the net we only have Homer and he is 36. We need Franzen more than we need Hossa.

I'm sure all the OMG Hossa fans are going to flame out now that I said that but that's my opinion. And just for the record, I'm not an idiot a homer even if I have a different opinion than the OMG Hossa fans.

It's not just "OMG Hossa fans." Ask ten random hockey fans who they'd rather have on their team, straight-up: Marian Hossa or Johan Franzen. Odds are they'd all pick the former. Hossa's just a more productive, consistent, well-rounded, and overall valuable player. I get what you're saying about filling roles, but regardless of Homer's age or what have you, you simply don't sacrifice a Hossa-type for a Mule-type if you can avoid it. Consider this: with all of the world-class skill between Datsyuk and Zetterberg, Hossa is a more lethal, proven goal-scorer than either of those two, and he's probably right around the third-best two-way player in the league, behind only Z and D. And he hasn't had the benefit of playing on the Red Wings his entire career like the other two have. And he's Mule's age. And he's only an inch shorter than Mule. And he's just as strong on his skates, described as more than one player as being "like a freight train" when he gets going -- which often entails crashing the net. Mule is good, and valuable, but not that good and valuable.

You'll see.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Let's say Franzen gets 80 points this season and Hossa gets 95.

Upon that, Franzen will end up with give or take a $5M salary, while Hossa could end up with a similar one as now, perhaps more. Given those circumstances, I'd take Franzen.

[Opie 308]

Let's say Franzen gets 80 points this season and Hossa gets 95.

Upon that, Franzen will end up with give or take a $5M salary, while Hossa could end up with a similar one as now, perhaps more. Given those circumstances, I'd take Franzen.

I would not.

[Dabura 12,207]

Let's say Franzen gets 80 points this season and Hossa gets 95.

Upon that, Franzen will end up with give or take a $5M salary, while Hossa could end up with a similar one as now, perhaps more. Given those circumstances, I'd take Franzen.

Hossa could conceivably be this team's #1 forward by the end of the season, possibly the league's most dangerous scorer. No joke. If he says he's willling to take, say, 7 flat to stay here and Mule says he wants close to what Hossa's making, Mule can take a walk.

[Guest MrSandMan]

I honestly doubt Hossa will be a Wing for 2 years. It depends on Frazen's success this year and how much he demands.

But I'm sure Hossa will be gone for the big $$$ after he wins the cup this year.

[dallas27 7]

Let's say Franzen gets 80 points this season and Hossa gets 95.

Upon that, Franzen will end up with give or take a $5M salary, while Hossa could end up with a similar one as now, perhaps more. Given those circumstances, I'd take Franzen.

Let's say there is a Red Wing scout at my game tonight and they like what they see and I get a minor league contract.

Let's say that the cost of a barrel of oil goes down 50%

Let's say the Wings win every single game

Let's say the Wings lose every single game

Let's say the Wings end up with the worst defense in the league

Let's say, again, that your avatar, Kitna, wins here on out and leads the Lions to the Super Bowl

Let's say Hossa ends up with 120 points

Let's say Franzen ends up with 40 points

Let's say Hossa ends up with 70 points

Let's say Franzen ends up with 71 points

Let's say Osgood ends up with a 0.50 GAA

Let's say I could keep going on with the let's says

Stop with the what-if's and let's says people. It's getting old. Hossa is a better hockey player, always will be. Franzen, without a doubt, is going to be a real good hockey player. But as good as Hossa? I don't think so. And as Dabura said, if Hossa says 7 flat and you are taking Franzen at 5 million, you should be shot in the head.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Let's say there is a Red Wing scout at my game tonight and they like what they see and I get a minor league contract.

Let's say that the cost of a barrel of oil goes down 50%

Let's say the Wings win every single game

Let's say the Wings lose every single game

Let's say the Wings end up with the worst defense in the league

Let's say, again, that your avatar, Kitna, wins here on out and leads the Lions to the Super Bowl

Let's say Hossa ends up with 120 points

Let's say Franzen ends up with 40 points

Let's say Hossa ends up with 70 points

Let's say Franzen ends up with 71 points

Let's say Osgood ends up with a 0.50 GAA

Let's say I could keep going on with the let's says

Stop with the what-if's and let's says people. It's getting old. Hossa is a better hockey player, always will be. Franzen, without a doubt, is going to be a real good hockey player. But as good as Hossa? I don't think so. And as Dabura said, if Hossa says 7 flat and you are taking Franzen at 5 million, you should be shot in the head.

I'm sorry, I didn't know this question wasn't hypothetical and we were all deciding the fate of the two players.

Seriously, get off your "OMG YOU MUST MAKE A DECISION BASED ON THE SEASON THAT HASNT STARTED YET OR YOU SUCK" soapbox and let people make their opinions based on what may happen.

[dallas27 7]

I'm sorry, I didn't know this question wasn't hypothetical and we were all deciding the fate of the two players.

Seriously, get off your "OMG YOU MUST MAKE A DECISION BASED ON THE SEASON THAT HASNT STARTED YET OR YOU SUCK" soapbox and let people make their opinions based on what may happen.

The question at hand isn't based off hypotheticals and as Imisssergei said it's a cop-out basing your decision on waiting and seeing what happens. Who would you rather have, Hossa or Franzen? Again, the answer is simple. Hossa. And again, as I said 3-4 pages back, THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT SAY FRANZEN IS PEOPLE AT LETSGOWINGS.COM. Why? Because they are homers and just don't know any better. If Kenny Holland would take Franzen over Hossa he would be criticized relentlessly. You don't take a Franzen type of player before Hossa. Hossa is a franchise player.