NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted October 1, 2008 Puttin' words in my mouth! I'll say it again... I would love to see Maltby go, but that just isn't likely so I talk about more realistic options. How exactly is that putting words in your mouth? I never said that *you* singled Sammy out, just that he's the trendy choice of LGW. The world isn't out to get you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DatsyukownzU13 1 Report post Posted October 1, 2008 How exactly is that putting words in your mouth? I never said that *you* singled Sammy out, just that he's the trendy choice of LGW. The world isn't out to get you. I think it's fair to assume that when you are addressing someone in an argument/discussion and claim, "...yet conveniently Sammy is always the only one who is wasting cap space", that person is probably going to assume you are stating that about them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted October 1, 2008 I think it's fair to assume that when you are addressing someone in an argument/discussion and claim, "...yet conveniently Sammy is always the only one who is wasting cap space", that person is probably going to assume you are stating that about them. Like I said, the world, nor I am out to get you. I was referring to the way Sammy is treated here because it seems to be popular belief. If you took it to mean I was coming at you, then I don't know what to tell you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) God almighty, this argument again? Fact: neither Helm nor Leino is going to bump Sammy from the roster this season. The only people who think otherwise are those who have an irrational, personal dislike for Sammy, a dislike that, being irrational, is not rooted in any kind of had facts or any semblance of objective thought. Sammy can rack up 40 points and provide strong two-way in a role he's not even supposed to be playing -- that of a second-line scorer. Now he's going to play the role he's made to play, and there's no reason whatsoever to believe that he won't do great things on what is looking to be a very dynamic, effective checking line. Helm is, right now, a fourth-liner on the Wings. I love the way the guy plays the game and think he has a very bright future in this league. But right now, Sammy is a safer, more reliable, and all-around better player. In all likelihood, Helm will spend the season on the farm, which would probably be for the better anyway. Leino is a great talent, but he simply would not be able to replace what Sammy brings to the fold this season. He's new to NA hockey; the shortcomings in his defensive game and fitness will be exposed over the course of a full season in the NHL. Why rush him in? There's no need. Sammy stays this season. Get over it. Edited October 1, 2008 by Dabura Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rivalred 630 Report post Posted October 1, 2008 Does anyone here realize the potential of having Sammy, Leino, and Helm? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted October 1, 2008 The team will be exactly the same as last year with Downey, McCarty, Leino, and Helm fighting for the last spot. Maltby isn't going anywhere, Sammy isn't going anywhere, noone is. No matter how you want to look at it, and no matter how much you hate him, Sammuelson is a more valuable player than Helm, Leino, McCarty, and Downey. Although Helm is good defensively, and Leino looks good offensively, these observations are based on their extremely limited amount of nhl experience (preseason included (and yes postseason included also)). Helm isn't capable of replacing Samuelson because he's a gritty shut-down type forward. He won't be capable of putting up the numbers that Sammy does. Leino could possibly replace Samuelson because he has more offensive upside to him. Unfortunately, all his nhl experience consists of 2 or 3 preseason games. That isn't even close to the number Ken Holland or anyone else should need to be comfortable in him playing 82 games getting solid minutes each night. Sammuelson isn't Ovechkin, but he knows his role. He has to be responsible defensively and contribute offensively when he can. This is something he does well. So why not get rid of Maltby? He plays 40 seconds a night and hasn't scored since 2002. Mablty is a very valuable part of the organization and it has nothing to do with what he does on the ice. The Wings organization is a very appealing one to play for. You always hear of how classy it is and how the players love playing here. That's the only reason Maltby is still playing. He's essentially an example to potential players of how secure you will be and how well you will be treated here. Hes a marketing gimmick, so players like Zetterberg and Datsyuk want to play here for the rest of their lives. The want to know they'll have a spot on the roster when they're 45 and still want to play. Holland looks out for his players, and the Wings' organization is rewarded, because more players want to play here. Chelios is the same thing. Quincey and Erikson and Meech could probably outplay him day in and day out right now, but he's been getting the spot to make the Wings' organization look more appealing for veterans. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dicksmack 33 Report post Posted October 1, 2008 The team will be exactly the same as last year with Downey, McCarty, Leino, and Helm fighting for the last spot. Maltby isn't going anywhere, Sammy isn't going anywhere, noone is. No matter how you want to look at it, and no matter how much you hate him, Sammuelson is a more valuable player than Helm, Leino, McCarty, and Downey. Although Helm is good defensively, and Leino looks good offensively, these observations are based on their extremely limited amount of nhl experience (preseason included (and yes postseason included also)). Helm isn't capable of replacing Samuelson because he's a gritty shut-down type forward. He won't be capable of putting up the numbers that Sammy does. Leino could possibly replace Samuelson because he has more offensive upside to him. Unfortunately, all his nhl experience consists of 2 or 3 preseason games. That isn't even close to the number Ken Holland or anyone else should need to be comfortable in him playing 82 games getting solid minutes each night. Sammuelson isn't Ovechkin, but he knows his role. He has to be responsible defensively and contribute offensively when he can. This is something he does well. So why not get rid of Maltby? He plays 40 seconds a night and hasn't scored since 2002. Mablty is a very valuable part of the organization and it has nothing to do with what he does on the ice. The Wings organization is a very appealing one to play for. You always hear of how classy it is and how the players love playing here. That's the only reason Maltby is still playing. He's essentially an example to potential players of how secure you will be and how well you will be treated here. Hes a marketing gimmick, so players like Zetterberg and Datsyuk want to play here for the rest of their lives. The want to know they'll have a spot on the roster when they're 45 and still want to play. Holland looks out for his players, and the Wings' organization is rewarded, because more players want to play here. Chelios is the same thing. Quincey and Erikson and Meech could probably outplay him day in and day out right now, but he's been getting the spot to make the Wings' organization look more appealing for veterans. Good one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doggy 130 Report post Posted October 1, 2008 OMG OMG Sammy scores in a preseason game what a god he should be on the first line forever the next Gretzky WOOT WOOT!!!1 That is about as rational as someone claiming Leino or Helm should take Sammy's spot based on a couple of exhibition games. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted October 1, 2008 F. Michael to be honest with you, last spring I was the only person on this board defending Sammy The only person? I have consistently defended Sammy's solid all-around play and strong contribution when others have recommended he be shipped out in favor of others like Darren McCarty, Matt Ellis, Ville Leino, or Darryl Bootland, or any number of others. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoWings1905 2,694 Report post Posted October 1, 2008 Kopecky = grit that we obviously lack. Matlby = a player that the classy organization would not just trade away or waive. The Maltby part is true, but you still proved my point. Neither of those players in their respective roles are more valuable than Sammy. By the way, Kopecky didn't play in the playoffs last season and the Red Wings didn't obviously lack grit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 308 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 The only person? I have consistently defended Sammy's solid all-around play and strong contribution when others have recommended he be shipped out in favor of others like Darren McCarty, Matt Ellis, Ville Leino, or Darryl Bootland, or any number of others. Sorry, that was just how it felt, you were defending him as well I have to admit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SouthernWingsFan 854 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 Does anyone here realize the potential of having Sammy, Leino, and Helm? Hell if you can genetically splice all three somehow and combine them into one person, the person would be like............A SUPERHUMAN!!!! Or something... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ezpeuknikel 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 Helm looked better than Hossa too. I'll Defend this statement. I have never Like Samuelson, he shoots too much (and always into the goalie's belly), rarely makes the right pass, and The thing i hate about him the most.....Playing the Point on the second powerplay unit..I'm all for sammy losing his spot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cnot19 191 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 I am not a Sammy fan by any stretch but he does deserve to be in the lineup. He does not make much 1.2 mil. I think we can cut him loose after this seaosn then give the younger guys a chance as opposed to this year. MY one problem with him is his lack of physical play for his size. Other than that I like him on a third line role, just wish he hit more and shot less. I can live with him on the third line, I think hes a pretty good option for our third line. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 I'll Defend this statement. I have never Like Samuelson, he shoots too much (and always into the goalie's belly), rarely makes the right pass, and The thing i hate about him the most.....Playing the Point on the second powerplay unit..I'm all for sammy losing his spot. So the thing you hate about Sammy the most is the fact that he's good enough offensively and defensively, and his coaches have enough faith in his versatility, that he plays ahead of natural defensemen with offensive talent and power play experience on the power play? How about this. Name a potential replacement for Sammy who can take on ALL of Sammy's responsibilities, or name multiple replacements, and do so without losing any performance or increasing the cap hit. I'll give you a hint; the chances of such replacement being found are slim to none. The best bet? A combination of Stuart on the PP point and Leino or Helm on the third line wing. And that is still a huge question mark. Leino and Helm have yet to prove they can consistently provide the level of offense or defense Sammy provides nightly. Stuart is at best a wash on the point, and he doesn't provide the righty-lefty that Babcock likes and Sammy brings. There are several players on the Wings who should be out before Sammy if we are kicking players off the team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Konnan511 1,736 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 This is getting annoying. Read a darn article about Sammy about why he shoots so much. MIKE BABCOCK HAS TOLD SAMMY TO SHOOT AS MUCH AS HE CAN TO CREATE CHANCES FOR HIS LINEMATES AND/OR TRY TO SCORE. He plays the point on the second PP unit because Babcock put him there. Find ONE player that has the same cap hit as sammy, but produces more goals, better +/-, better defensive play and showed up in the Stanley Cup Finals. I absolutely cannot stand Sammy, he just bugs the hell out of me, but for the love of God, this guy is hardly replaceable for what he brings to the team. I've said it once and I'll say it again, Maltby and Kope are highly replaceable. One is old and does s***e all game long and one is "young" and can't stay healthy and gets hit more often than he hits. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
T.Low 1,011 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 No doubt about it, the youngsters are going to great someday. Remember the stretch last year when all the injuries hit and the youngsters all came up from GR? The Red Griffins. Were'nt the Wings like 1-10 during that stretch or something? Experienced players=good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Saran 1 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 woot, i motivated him. my plan all along.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crymson Report post Posted October 2, 2008 BTW, your gut feeling about a guy doesn't mean he can do anything remotely close to what Sammy can do, as stated by another poster, it is not like Leino and Helm right now are out there playing against top tier NHL lines. Also Huds was a second round draft pick that would have been a 1st rounder if taller, his skill set is supposed to be better than Sammy's, plus Sammy was brought to the Wings to be a defensive forward, Huds was brought in to score. Not exactly apples to apples. s*** last year in the AHL Helm put up less points than Sammy, what makes you think in the NHL he will be able to put up better numbers against better players? It should also be noted that only two of Samuelsson's 13 points came on the power play, versus six of 14 for Hudler. Yes, Hudler did well last postseason... but I don't see how that pertains to how much Samuelsson is worth. Further, Samuelsson was an important part of the Flip - Franzen - Sammy line; he was not just a spectator to Franzen scoring. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cicada 4 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 It should also be noted that only two of Samuelsson's 13 points came on the power play, versus six of 14 for Hudler. Yes, Hudler did well last postseason... but I don't see how that pertains to how much Samuelsson is worth. Further, Samuelsson was an important part of the Flip - Franzen - Sammy line; he was not just a spectator to Franzen scoring. it should be noted that HUdler had very limited EV minutes in the playoffs last year, where as Sammy was going between 2nd and 3rd lines.. Hudler, Franzen and Kronwall made that 2nd PP unit explosive, and better statistically than the #1 PP unit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 308 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 It should also be noted that only two of Samuelsson's 13 points came on the power play, versus six of 14 for Hudler. Yes, Hudler did well last postseason... but I don't see how that pertains to how much Samuelsson is worth. Further, Samuelsson was an important part of the Flip - Franzen - Sammy line; he was not just a spectator to Franzen scoring. Very true, his fore checking led directly to goals ( I am not saying he is Kris Draper), He scored when needed, and hell the Team won the cup!!!! He is getting bashed on here very similar to how Lilja got pashed after the infamous turnover, here is the difference, nothing anyone can point to that Sammy did or didn't do led to the Wings not winning the cup, interesting little factoid for you! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 (edited) I love Sammy at $1 million... absolutely love him. It will be interesting how contract talks with him go. You have to think he enjoys being on the team, but how much of a discount will that warrant? I think he could sign as a free agent for over $3 million - he is good defensively, is a cup winning veteran, can play the point and is competent even on a second line, with even 1st line fill-in duties. Above all, the guy produces, year-in-and-year-out and he steps it up in the playoffs. I think it will be very tough to retain him, given the amount of demand I think would be out there for him. Edited October 2, 2008 by egroen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 The only person? I have consistently defended Sammy's solid all-around play and strong contribution when others have recommended he be shipped out in favor of others like Darren McCarty, Matt Ellis, Ville Leino, or Darryl Bootland, or any number of others. Agreed. Opie, I know what you were going for but I (as well as some others) defended Sammy as well. You were in the minority, but you weren't alone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heaton 1 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 Leino has a long way to go before he's as good of a hockey player as Samuelsson. As for Helm? They play different roles. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 308 Report post Posted October 2, 2008 Agreed. Opie, I know what you were going for but I (as well as some others) defended Sammy as well. You were in the minority, but you weren't alone. Sorry to leave some of you out, it was more the feeling of being the only one I guess, but I remember lots of threads last year where I was totally ripped apart for supporting this guy from the end of the 05-06 season through to recently. It wasn't until just recently more and more people have started defending him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
