Helm/Leino deserve Samuelsson's roster spot

[Guest Crymson]

Sorry to leave some of you out, it was more the feeling of being the only one I guess, but I remember lots of threads last year where I was totally ripped apart for supporting this guy from the end of the 05-06 season through to recently.

It wasn't until just recently more and more people have started defending him.

Don't forget me!

[Seedless 0]

This is getting annoying. Read a darn article about Sammy about why he shoots so much. MIKE BABCOCK HAS TOLD SAMMY TO SHOOT AS MUCH AS HE CAN TO CREATE CHANCES FOR HIS LINEMATES AND/OR TRY TO SCORE. He plays the point on the second PP unit because Babcock put him there. Find ONE player that has the same cap hit as sammy, but produces more goals, better +/-, better defensive play and showed up in the Stanley Cup Finals.

I absolutely cannot stand Sammy, he just bugs the hell out of me, but for the love of God, this guy is hardly replaceable for what he brings to the team. I've said it once and I'll say it again, Maltby and Kope are highly replaceable. One is old and does s***e all game long and one is "young" and can't stay healthy and gets hit more often than he hits.

Even if Sammy is told to shoot a lot, you are still not talking about what the poster said. He said he shoots it right into his stomach every time, and that he rarely makes the right pass. And i will gladly second that.

Him playing 2nd line on the Powerplay is also something I disagree with. Stuart has a bullet. I say throw him in there until Sammy can work on his shot. Not the power of his shot, but the execution.

I'm not saying get rid of him, but he can easily work on those areas. He's good for what he makes, and he's part of a Cup winning team, so keep him around. Plus, Babcock loves him, and I'll trust his judgement. He's given me no reason not to.

[egroen 384]

Babcock will have a fit when Ericsson makes the team. Will he still keep a right-shooting forward on the point when he has a 100 mph shooting defenseman, whom unfortunately also has a left shot?

[Guest MrSandMan]

Sammy earned his spot on this team. Without him, our cup may not be had. Glad he's a Wing.

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Babcock will have a fit when Ericsson makes the team. Will he still keep a right-shooting forward on the point when he has a 100 mph shooting defenseman, whom unfortunately also has a left shot?

If Sammy and Ericsson are both on the team next year and E is getting top 4 minutes (and thats a big if), then it's a no brainer that he gets the point spot based alone on the fact that he plays D.

The real question is will E adjust to NHL speed and be comfortable enough playing big minutes and not turning the puck over on the point. Sammy's done a decent job, I'd be more comfortable with a D playing it but they won't switch it up until it's clear that E is the player we all think he is.

Edited October 2, 2008 by DatsyukownzU13

[eva unit zero 271]

Babcock will have a fit when Ericsson makes the team. Will he still keep a right-shooting forward on the point when he has a 100 mph shooting defenseman, whom unfortunately also has a left shot?

Yes. He used Jason Williams over Mikael Samuelsson...and Jiri Fischer was on the team at the time. Ericsson is several years behind Fischer's development at either end of the ice.

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

...and Jiri Fischer was on the team at the time. Ericsson is several years behind Fischer's development at either end of the ice.

This is probably a matter of opinion since it's pretty impossible to compare the two, but I strongly disagree with this statement.

[eva unit zero 271]

This is probably a matter of opinion since it's pretty impossible to compare the two, but I strongly disagree with this statement.

If Ericsson is not several years behind Fischer, then he is good enough NOW that the Wings will MAKE space for him on this year's team by trading away some of the guys who are currently taking up the 5-8 slots.

Fischer is only four years older than Ericsson; he is only one year older than Kronwall.

If we want to measure their development at similar ages, Fischer was MUCH better in 2003-04 than Ericsson was last season or Kronwall in 2004-05. In fact, Ericsson is arguably the worst of the three as measured at the age of 24. This is to be expected, as he has only been a defenseman for a few seasons.

I don't understand how someone can possibly argue that a player who has only played the position since the age of 18 can be developmentally ahead of someone who was a top-three defenseman on a Cup-winning team at the age of 22, and was considered a can't miss two-way defenseman prospect with a decimating physical presence and rockets for skates when he was a teenager. Fischer was an 'everything' prospect as far as his tools. He had the skating, the shot, the playmaking, the defense, the bone-crunching bodychecks, the vision...he was a can't miss, blue chip blueliner. Ericsson was converted to defense because he had a good skill set and Wings scouts felt he might be better suited to the position, and his work ethic allowed him to make massive strides in development.

Ericsson will be a good player...but anyone who feels he is ahead of Jiri Fischer developmentally, either Fischer at 24 or Fischer when he left the team, you clearly didn't watch nearly enough of Fischer to see just how good of a player that kid was, and how good he was going to be. Fischer forced himself onto the roster when the Wings didn't want to put him there due to his age. He was simply too good to keep off, in an era when the Wings could much more easily stack their blueline full of stars. Ericsson hasn't been able to do the same thing, although he has come close and may do it this year, and he is much older.

[Doggy 130]

If Ericsson is not several years behind Fischer, then he is good enough NOW that the Wings will MAKE space for him on this year's team by trading away some of the guys who are currently taking up the 5-8 slots.

Fischer is only four years older than Ericsson; he is only one year older than Kronwall.

If we want to measure their development at similar ages, Fischer was MUCH better in 2003-04 than Ericsson was last season or Kronwall in 2004-05. In fact, Ericsson is arguably the worst of the three as measured at the age of 24. This is to be expected, as he has only been a defenseman for a few seasons.

I don't understand how someone can possibly argue that a player who has only played the position since the age of 18 can be developmentally ahead of someone who was a top-three defenseman on a Cup-winning team at the age of 22, and was considered a can't miss two-way defenseman prospect with a decimating physical presence and rockets for skates when he was a teenager. Fischer was an 'everything' prospect as far as his tools. He had the skating, the shot, the playmaking, the defense, the bone-crunching bodychecks, the vision...he was a can't miss, blue chip blueliner. Ericsson was converted to defense because he had a good skill set and Wings scouts felt he might be better suited to the position, and his work ethic allowed him to make massive strides in development.

Ericsson will be a good player...but anyone who feels he is ahead of Jiri Fischer developmentally, either Fischer at 24 or Fischer when he left the team, you clearly didn't watch nearly enough of Fischer to see just how good of a player that kid was, and how good he was going to be. Fischer forced himself onto the roster when the Wings didn't want to put him there due to his age. He was simply too good to keep off, in an era when the Wings could much more easily stack their blueline full of stars. Ericsson hasn't been able to do the same thing, although he has come close and may do it this year, and he is much older.

I agree with your assessment of Ericsson vs. Fischer. People seem to have gotten a little too excited about Ericsson without seeing him really play in the NHL. Fischer was a gun. I gotta say though, I don't know how you can say he was that much better than Kronner was. I saw a lot of him during the lockout (as I'm sure we all did) and he was phenominal in the AHL. You can't really fairly compare the two seasons.

[egroen 384]

If we want to measure their development at similar ages, Fischer was MUCH better in 2003-04 than Ericsson was last season or Kronwall in 2004-05. In fact, Ericsson is arguably the worst of the three as measured at the age of 24. This is to be expected, as he has only been a defenseman for a few seasons.

Agreed. Fischer was the real deal... and probably could step on the ice and be better than Ericsson right now (I hear he was schooling the prospects, at camp). Big defensemen like that are often late bloomers, but Fischer obviously was ahead of Ericsson in development, though they do have similar builds and games.

The thought of Kronwall and him on the second pairing....

[eva unit zero 271]

Agreed. Fischer was the real deal... and probably could step on the ice and be better than Ericsson right now (I hear he was schooling the prospects, at camp). Big defensemen like that are often late bloomers, but Fischer obviously was ahead of Ericsson in development, though they do have similar builds and games.

The thought of Kronwall and him on the second pairing....

I used to drool over the idea of a Lidstrom/Fischer pairing. It always seemed like the perfect idea for so many reasons. Lidstrom was the cornerstone...Fischer was the future cornerstone. Lidstrom was subtle, and played a positional game. Fischer was quick, physical, and intimidating but still had very good puck skills. A perfect complement to Lidstrom's style IMHO.

Imagine this top four:

Lidstrom/Fischer

Rafalski/Kronwall

That's just unfair.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I used to drool over the idea of a Lidstrom/Fischer pairing. It always seemed like the perfect idea for so many reasons. Lidstrom was the cornerstone...Fischer was the future cornerstone. Lidstrom was subtle, and played a positional game. Fischer was quick, physical, and intimidating but still had very good puck skills. A perfect complement to Lidstrom's style IMHO.

Imagine this top four:

Lidstrom/Fischer

Rafalski/Kronwall

That's just unfair.

I miss Fisch too. Damn he was good. The Wings have lost far too many future defensive cornerstones to accidents (two is two too many!).

[Bluedevils_13 0]

Lidstrom-Konstantinov

Kronwall-Rafalski

Chelios-Fischer?

[dicksmack 33]

I used to drool over the idea of a Lidstrom/Fischer pairing. It always seemed like the perfect idea for so many reasons. Lidstrom was the cornerstone...Fischer was the future cornerstone. Lidstrom was subtle, and played a positional game. Fischer was quick, physical, and intimidating but still had very good puck skills. A perfect complement to Lidstrom's style IMHO.

Imagine this top four:

Lidstrom/Fischer

Rafalski/Kronwall

That's just unfair.

n't

Fischer was more like a millstone... He wouldn't have been much beyond a scarier version of Lilja, let's face facts. He didn't have the innate ability to anticipate plays--AKA hockey sense. It's easier to romanticize him after the really unfair thing happened to him.

[eva unit zero 271]

n't

Fischer was more like a millstone... He wouldn't have been much beyond a scarier version of Lilja, let's face facts. He didn't have the innate ability to anticipate plays--AKA hockey sense. It's easier to romanticize him after the really unfair thing happened to him.

Fischer was better at 22 than Lilja has ever been. You may not recall this, but I considered Fischer to potentially be a dominant two-way defenseman and Norris contender long before the cardiac incident, and gave solid examples of how his progression and potential showed that he could be on that track.

[eva unit zero 271]

Lidstrom-Konstantinov

Kronwall-Rafalski

Chelios-Fischer?

The Wings likely wouldn't have traded for Chelios if Konstantinov were still on the team.

[egroen 384]

The Wings likely wouldn't have traded for Chelios if Konstantinov were still on the team.

There are a lot of defensemen the Wings never would have had if Konstantinov was still around. It seemed every year they tried to replace him, and really fell short.

I do not think we are romantisizing Fischer... he just screamed potential, was already very good and was getting better every single year he played. It would not have been that unusual for him to not hit his potential at the age of 30.