A case for #91 in the rafters?

[egroen 384]

Also may I remind anyone who cares to make the case for Red Kelly, that Kelly's three best seasons happened wearing blue and white.

You are aware, of course, that Kelly played center for Toronto, and not defense? Which might explain the better numbers

Edited October 15, 2008 by egroen

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Exactly - Lindsay leaving was far worse, especially if you were a Red Wings fan.

Lindsay was making 5 times as much money as your "average blue collar worker" and was not loved by the fans. His actions leading to him being stripped of the captaincy and traded from the team was considered greedy and treacherous at the time.

The overwhelming feeling was that Lindsay should be thankful for what he got (for playing a game), and should show loyalty to the team and management that had given him so much. Public sentiment was overwhelmingly in favor of Adams, the guy who had put together the Wings dynasty.... over "Terrible Ted".

Yes, but if you've done your research as you seem to have you would've known how badly the players were being taken advantage of at the time. Do you know what they were paying Gordie Howe at times during the early part of his career. It'd make you angry.

What Ted was doing was for a cause greater than himself. It only hurt the Wings b/c greedy owners including his own forced him out of town. Do you think Lindsay wanted to be stripped of his Captaincy and sent packing out of Detroit? He was forced out for doing what he beleived was in the best interests of the players.

No way can you even begin to compare that situation, during that time period in history and the state of the game to what Fedorov did, which is essentially the modern day free agency market which allows a player to jump ship if he wants.

I don't hold it against Fedorov that he wanted more money. Let's get that straight to all those who think I hate Fedorov. That's not the point. Go get as much money as you want is what I say. However, if you want more money and you sign an offer to leave the Wings, don't expect me to lead the charge for your number to get retired. You could've taken less, many a Wings player has done so over the years. But he didn't think that way. Fedorov first, Wings second.

Big difference between Ted and Sergei.

[egroen 384]

Yes, but if you've done your research as you seem to have you would've known how badly the players were being taken advantage of at the time. Do you know what they were paying Gordie Howe at times during the early part of his career. It'd make you angry.

I'm well aware and I agree 100%.... just at the time the overwhelming sentiment was not so. Lindsay was hated way more than Fedorov is now. I'm just saying in a number of years the "bad" about Fedorov will be glossed over by the good, and he will be hanging in the rafters.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Okay, so now that we've had the first of our many obligatory "91 should hang from the rafters" threads...............and after 3 games already! You Feds die hards are slacking off!

The question is how long until our first of many obligatory "let's bring Fedorov back" threads?

I'm thinking by game 7 we'll see our first one.

[sagnam 0]

What box would it open? Who comes even close to accomplishing what Fedorov accomplished as a Red Wing and is not already up there?

The box of retiring the ones that require an arguement. Osgood now. Whoever else down the line.

Edited October 15, 2008 by sagnam

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I'm well aware and I agree 100%.... just at the time the overwhelming sentiment was not so. Lindsay was hated way more than Fedorov is now. I'm just saying in a number of years the "bad" about Fedorov will be glossed over by the good, and he will be hanging in the rafters.

You're right that time heals all wounds. For the most part. Whether or not Feds will still be remember so highly by the Illitch's the fans or the new ownership is yet to be determined.

In 30 years maybe the bad will be forgotten and only the good will remain. The question will be whether anybody cares about Fedorov in 30 years. Or whenever.

PS: In a couple of your posts you say Lindsay "left". that's not accurate according to your own research.

Fedorov tried to leave for Carolina and elected to leave for Anaheim. He had a contract he could've signed but opted for term with the Ducks.

Lindsay was traded and/or forced out by Adams. That's a gigantic difference that need be noted.

[egroen 384]

Okay, so now that we've had the first of our many obligatory "91 should hang from the rafters" threads...............and after 3 games already! You Feds die hards are slacking off!

The question is how long until our first of many obligatory "let's bring Fedorov back" threads?

I'm thinking by game 7 we'll see our first one.

But it is the first one by me, and I make a much better case

Anyways, I completely agree he should not be up there for many years (unlike Yzerman and Lidstrom who go up immediately).

[egroen 384]

The box of retiring the one that require an arguement. Osgood now. Whoever else down the line.

Osgood does not even sniff Fedorov - you need a completely different set of argumants and future factors to even make a case for Osgood.

PS: In a couple of your posts you say Lindsay "left". that's not accurate according to your own research.

He was forced out (traded), and wrongly (as we view it today), but he knew what his actions would lead to and did them anyways. Jack Adam's views on a union were not exactly secret.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

But it is the first one by me, and I make a much better case

Anyways, I completely agree he should not be up there for many years (unlike Yzerman and Lidstrom who go up immediately).

Both sides are passionate about this. For my part, I don't boo Sergei and I don't wish ill on him.

I am always Wings first, players second. The day he signed that offer with Carolina was pretty much the day I made up my mind that although he was amazing, he wasn't gonna get my vote to hang up his jersey. And for the record, neither does Shanny or Chely, etc... In my mind only Nick should be up there with Ozzie making a strong case. Frankly, I think Draper and even Maltby make strong cases, especially if they hang 'em up while still wearing a Wings' sweater.

If 91 does get up there one day I hope its received well by the fans. I'm just not banking on it ever happening.

[sagnam 0]

Osgood does not even sniff Fedorov

I disagree. Osgood is steadily climbing up the league and Red Wings' all-time stat sheets.

I like both players and would be fine if both have their numbers retired, but I don't want to see it snowball. The day Shanahan's number gets retired would be a dark day.

Edited October 15, 2008 by sagnam

[sagnam 0]

Frankly, I think Draper and even Maltby make strong cases, especially if they hang 'em up while still wearing a Wings' sweater.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Osgood does not even sniff Fedorov - you need a completely different set of argumants and future factors to even make a case for Osgood.

He was forced out (traded), and wrongly (as we view it today), but he knew what his actions would lead to and did them anyways. Jack Adam's views on a union were not exactly secret.

Sure. But didn't change the fact Lindsay wanted to be a Wing. So look at Lindsay's choice versus Feds' choice.

Lindsay: Wanted to be a Wing but you want to fight an unfair system that harms not only yourself but your peers. Lindsay knowingly sacrificed his livelihood with the Wings and accepted the scorn of owners league wide to do what we all agree was the right thing.

Fedorov: Wanted to be a Wing but only if he got the money he felt he deserved. In a sense it resembles what Ted wanted. But Fedorov was not fighting for anything greater than himself. The 2nd he signed on the dotted line with Carolina he let it be known to all he was fully prepared to move on from the Wings.

There's really no comparison between the 2 situations. A minute, slim one at best.

[egroen 384]

The day he signed that offer with Carolina was pretty much the day I made up my mind that although he was amazing, he wasn't gonna get my vote to hang up his jersey.

Did you know Sakic signed an offer sheet with the Rangers back in '97, while he was captain?

A lot of people seem to forget that when comparing him to Yzerman, though I do not think it is enough of a reason Sakic's number should not be retired in Colorado (not that they are that picky, anyways ), but that is a main reason many dislike Fedorov, yet Sakic is almost universally loved.

There's really no comparison between the 2 situations. A minute, slim one at best.

They both betrayed the teams they were with (one for more money for himself and one for more money for all hockey players) and were despised by the fans for years as a result.

Edited October 15, 2008 by egroen

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Why? Because they aren't superstars with superstar numbers?

We're not talking about their importance to the game of hockey nor are we talking about their status for acceptance into the bloody Hall of Fame.

We're talking about their contributions to the Wings organization.

Look at Draper for instance. Not a stud offensively but can anyone seriously say Draper's contributions to this team have been any less important over the many years? The guy has done it and gave it all up on the ice, in the community, etc...for this organization.

You can't win cups without superstars. But I would argue Draper has been one of the most integral parts of our team since he's been here.

By the Numbers

4 Stanley Cups

6th all time in games played, will be 5th after this year

top 25th in all time scoring, doesn't say much but considering his role its important to note

And then you just look at his on ice performance. Has there been a better, more reliable shut down guy for the Wings the past 15 years?

If anybody has stuck with the organization, given everything they have to the organization and left it all out on the ice for this organization, Kris Draper is one of those people.

Obviously to a lesser extent so has Maltby.

I'm not clamoring for them to have their numbers retired but for me, they've been every bit as important to our 4 cups as some of the "big guns". They have their own roles to fill and have filled them better than anyone else I can imagine.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Did you know Sakic signed an offer sheet with the Rangers back in '97, while he was captain?

A lot of people seem to forget that when comparing him to Yzerman, though I do not think it is enough of a reason Sakic's number should not be retired in Colorado (not that they are that picky, anyways ), but that is a reason many dislike Fedorov, but Sakic is almost universally loved.

They both betrayed the teams they were with (one for more money for himself and one for more money for all hockey players) and were despised by the fans for years as a result.

Yes, but do you despise Lindsay for what he did? What Lindsay did ended up being the right thing to do for all players.

Fedorov left for more money, has nothing to do with the Wings, wanting to be a wing, doing something greater for all players.

Just b/c people hated Lindsay for doing what he did and hated Feds for what he did, doesn't make why they did it the same. Just shows people are stupid. Maybe history will show we're stupid when it comes to Fedorov. Jury is still out on that one. Jury is not out on Lindsay. he was a hero for what he did in retrospect. I doubt Feds will be looked upon as a hero.

[jawbreaker 0]

I can't believe that some people are still so bitter that Feds left.

Those contract-talks were not black and white, they were very complex. Kenny and Feds were both stubborn. Feds wanted a longer contract, and now he is given all this crap by the fans? Common, get over it.

Even Holland kinda admitted that maybe he was wrong. I mean, that Datsyuk was also pushing for the very long deal (Dats said that length was the most important part to him). So eventually Kenny offered him a long deal. IMHO Holland didn't want to make the same mistake twice.

[egroen 384]

Just b/c people hated Lindsay for doing what he did and hated Feds for what he did, doesn't make why they did it the same. Just shows people are stupid. Maybe history will show we're stupid when it comes to Fedorov. Jury is still out on that one. Jury is not out on Lindsay. he was a hero for what he did in retrospect. I doubt Feds will be looked upon as a hero.

People at the time did not think someone playing a "sport" should be filthy rich. Is that so stupid? It is now perfectly acceptable (for the most part), but I don't think fans of hockey back then were stupid for wanting to see the same players on the same team for most of their careers. My father still thinks free agency has killed a lot of the sports he grew up loving.

It's not like these hockey players faced similar conditions to factory workers of the early 20th century.... those early union leaders could definitely be considered "heroes". Ted Lindsay, not so much.

Edited October 15, 2008 by egroen

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Did you know Sakic signed an offer sheet with the Rangers back in '97, while he was captain?

A lot of people seem to forget that when comparing him to Yzerman, though I do not think it is enough of a reason Sakic's number should not be retired in Colorado (not that they are that picky, anyways ), but that is a main reason many dislike Fedorov, yet Sakic is almost universally loved.

They both betrayed the teams they were with (one for more money for himself and one for more money for all hockey players) and were despised by the fans for years as a result.

Yes, and thankfully for me I don't care about the Aves nor how they go about deciding whose number to retire.

All that matters to me is the Wings organization and who they decide honor. And frankly, the Aves have proven they're much more liberal with how they do it. s***, they retired Ray Bourque's number didn't they? If I were Bourque i'd have asked them not to as it almost takes something away from his number hanging in Boston.

I've never followed Sakic other than on the scoresheet. I know the similarities between him and Stevie are almost frightening. Would that sway my opinion somewhat even though he too signed an offer sheet?

It might. But then again we're comparing Sakic to Yzerman. Faces of the organization. Longest serving Captains of their organizations. Hall of Famers for their organization, etc...

They both may have signed an offer sheet but Sakic's place in history with the Aves places him #1. Fedorov's importance to Detroit does not come close to Sakic's in Colorado/Quebec.

[Reds4Life 51]

Red Kelly should definitely have his number retired. Lidstrom is a lock. And Fedorov should get his number retired, he was phenomenal and without him Wings do not win in 97, 98 or 02.

Osgood? No way.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

People at the time did not think someone playing a "sport" should be filthy rich. Is that so stupid? It is now perfectly acceptable (for the most part), but I don't think fans of hockey back then were stupid for wanting to see the same players on the same team for most of their careers. My father still thinks free agency has killed a lot of the sports he grew up loving.

It's not like these hockey players faced similar conditions to factory workers at the dawn of the 20th century.... those early union leaders could definitely be considered "heroes". Ted Lindsay, not so much.

I agree with your dad. Still, Lindsay's cause was honorable in my mind. Owners were reaping an unfair share of proceeds off the sweat and blood of the players. And Ted aimed to fix that. And yes, fans at the time probably thought it ludicrous that players make so much. Hell, fans still think it's ludicrous so what's the difference?

And the whole thing about money or wealth isn't being taken into context here. Filthy rich is all relative. The system, as it was back then was simply unfair. I don't think its' been unfair during Feds' career. Players have done well thanks to what Ted Lindsay championed.

Again, their situations are so different.

[Uncle Danny 155]

egroen: I have to tell you that I've agreed with almost every single word you've typed in this thread. Well played, old man.

I'm firmly in the camp that Fedorov should have his number retired. Always have been. Sure, he's a head case, but the same could be said (and has, here) for Sawchuk and Lindsay. He left his country and family to play here, gave us 13 years (ok, 12.5 with the holdout) and three cups. No one in their right mind can dispute his importance to those three championships.

And, as eva mentioned and everyone promptly ignored, he did NOT leave for more money. I cringe every time I read that. I suggest people reread eva's post the next time those words approach your fingertips.

To round things out, my opinions (and yes, this entire post is nothing more than my humble opinions) on the other players mentioned for number retirement.

Lidstrom: Lock

Osgood: I'm on the fence. If we get another cup while he's here, definitely. I certainly would have no problem with his number being raised, but I'm skeptical that it ever will.

Draper: See above re: Osgood. His numbers may not be there, but this man embodies what it means to be a Red Wing... and has for a decade and a half.

Maltby: Nope. I love the guy, but nope.

Chelios: No, not in Detroit. Probably in Chicago. Probably not in Montreal, as they're already running out of numbers

Vlady: I actually like the unspoken retirement for him. No one should ever wear his number again, but his time was too short for it to be raised. Plus, looking at his banner in the rafters would be a constant reminder of a terrible tragedy.

Shanny: I love the guy, even as a Ranger. s***, I loved him as a Blue, believe it or not. But no. His length of service wasn't long enough, nor did he help build the Yzerman era. He was, perhaps, the final missing piece, but he wasn't around for the foundational work. Great guy, HHOF lock, and a fun player to watch (anyone else remember Mac and Lapointe adopting his knee down one timer once he came to the team?), but not for the rafters. Again, just my opinion.

EDIT: Forgot Shanny

Edited October 15, 2008 by Uncle Danny

[egroen 384]

Red Kelly should definitely have his number retired.

Maybe that will be my next thread...

[dadair 0]

My $0.02 worth. The first criteria for me is HOF. If you're not in the HOF you're not worthy of having your number retired. Yzerman and Lidstrom are LOCKS for the Hall. Fedorov, more than likely won't make the Hall. As much as Shanahan did in the Winged Wheel, the fact that Detroit was one of five teams he played for makes retiring his number mute.

In the 82 year history of the Wings only 6 players are in the rafters and I like that. You have to be very special to join the group already up there and, to me, Fedorov isn't that "special."

Edited October 15, 2008 by dadair

[lidstromfan5 3]

In my opinion, i feel that the players who were critical to the 4 cups we have won should be retired so we can remember the era. If you look at the jerseys in the rafters 1,7,9,10,12 were apart of a great era of red wings hockey in the 50's. So i feel also that the guys from the 90's and 00's should be up as well. That includes 5,8,19,14,33,18,25,30,96 and as much as I hate to say it 91. These players were an integral part to the wings turnaround. Ozzie should go up though only if he breaks Sawchuks wins record. But all of them I wouldn't complain if they went up. It's not like colorado where they put 77 up in the rafters. Then if the next group of players do there thing, we will see 13 and 40 up there.

Edited October 15, 2008 by lidstromfan5

[egroen 384]

My $0.02 worth. The first criteria for me is HOF. If you're not in the HOF you're not worthy of having your number retired. Yzerman and Lidstrom are LOCKS for the Hall. Fedorov, more than likely won't make the Hall. As much as Shanahan did in the Winged Wheel, the fact that Detroit was one of five teams he played for makes retiring his number mute.

In the 82 year history of the Wings only 6 players are in the rafters and I like that. You have to be very special to join the group already up there and, to me, Fedorov isn't that "special."

Oh, Fedorov is a lock for the HHoF... you will find few who disagree.

Feodorov is better than Sid Abel and Alex Delvecchio, without a doubt. So is Red Kelly, who was even better.

Edited October 15, 2008 by egroen