2008-09 College Hoops Thread

[BlakChamber 8]

Only weak team is Indiana...yet they were in a rebuilding mode.

Give Indiana 2 more years and they are going to be back in the upper third of the Big 10.

The Big 10 as a whole is looking good, like Manny said, the only team I can really see taking a step back next year is Iowa.

[timothy1997 0]

Give Indiana 2 more years and they are going to be back in the upper third of the Big 10.

The Big 10 as a whole is looking good, like Manny said, the only team I can really see taking a step back next year is Iowa.

I know. Indiana is gonna get players because they are Indiana. Curious to see programs like Penn State and Northwestern to see if they are a big ten force or just a fluke this year.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

I know. Indiana is gonna get players because they are Indiana. Curious to see programs like Penn State and Northwestern to see if they are a big ten force or just a fluke this year.

That is a very good point, and I wonder the same thing. PSU loses some guys, but returns Battle. I don't know what to think about either of those teams, because honestly those are the 2 teams I know the least about.

[BlakChamber 8]

That is a very good point, and I wonder the same thing. PSU loses some guys, but returns Battle. I don't know what to think about either of those teams, because honestly those are the 2 teams I know the least about.

Yeah, those two are a tossup as well. I guess going into the season next year, I'd rank the Big 10 teams like this.

Top teams.

MSU, Purdue, Illinois.

Tournament teams, but not the top.

OSU, Wisconsin

Will be competitive, but not in the top half yet.

Michigan, Minnesota

On the rise

Indiana

Tossup teams

Penn State, Northwestern

Getting worse

Iowa

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

Yeah, those two are a tossup as well. I guess going into the season next year, I'd rank the Big 10 teams like this.

Top teams.

MSU, Purdue, Illinois.

Tournament teams, but not the top.

OSU, Wisconsin

Will be competitive, but not in the top half yet.

Michigan, Minnesota

On the rise

Indiana

Tossup teams

Penn State, Northwestern

Getting worse

Iowa

I agree with this. OSU could be in the top. I know they got that 7ft transfer (A 7 footer on OSU? Shocking!). If I was a OSU fan I would be getting sick of these one and done players. I like how Izzo, Beilien, and Bo Ryan build teams. Thats how college hoops should be.

[BlakChamber 8]

I agree with this. OSU could be in the top. I know they got that 7ft transfer (A 7 footer on OSU? Shocking!). If I was a OSU fan I would be getting sick of these one and done players. I like how Izzo, Beilien, and Bo Ryan build teams. Thats how college hoops should be.

I like Beilein, but if I was a Michigan fan I'd (shoot myself) be concerned for a few reasons.

1: I'm not convinced Beilein ball is a good style for the Big 10. Relying on the three ball and not drawing fouls? This is the conference of 50 free throw attempt games. You need to be able to go inside, especially if the three ball isn't falling. It's going to be like watching JLS football. When the three ball is falling, they'll put up some good wins, see Duke and UCLA. But if your shooters aren't hitting their shots, it can make for a long night. Sims and Harris are good, I was really impressed with Sims when I saw him play. But you need more than that.

As a side note, is there any talk of either of them going pro?

2: How long will he stay? Let's say next season UM finishes in the top third of the Big 10 and makes it to the Sweet Sixteen. Other colleges are going to come calling. UM basketball isn't exactly a destination job. After their last coaching search, I'm not sure football is a destination job anymore, but that's just me being a dick Would UM pony up the cash to keep him if needed?

3: Trying to rebuild in a very good conference. Much like UM football has been for decades, MSU and Izzo are the big brother when it comes to basketball. Purdue, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Ohio State have their programs established. Indiana is going to get recruits. It leaves Beilein fighting for the midwest scraps with Iowa, Minny, PSU, and NW. Now, he's going to steal some recruits from MSU, Purdue, etc. But unless you're a gumpy white guy who can shoot the three, UM isn't going to be the first choice for a lot of recruits. And even then, if you meet that description, you're better off at Wisconsin. Despite what the Detroit papers say, the fab five aren't relevant anymore.

I think Beilein is a good coach and by all accounts he seems like a good guy. Even being a UM coach, I like the guy. God knows he's an improvement over Ellerbe and Tommy Turtleneck. I just wonder what the ceiling for UM basketball is these days.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

I like Beilein, but if I was a Michigan fan I'd (shoot myself) be concerned for a few reasons.

1: I'm not convinced Beilein ball is a good style for the Big 10. Relying on the three ball and not drawing fouls? This is the conference of 50 free throw attempt games. You need to be able to go inside, especially if the three ball isn't falling. It's going to be like watching JLS football. When the three ball is falling, they'll put up some good wins, see Duke and UCLA. But if your shooters aren't hitting their shots, it can make for a long night. Sims and Harris are good, I was really impressed with Sims when I saw him play. But you need more than that.

As a side note, is there any talk of either of them going pro?

2: How long will he stay? Let's say next season UM finishes in the top third of the Big 10 and makes it to the Sweet Sixteen. Other colleges are going to come calling. UM basketball isn't exactly a destination job. After their last coaching search, I'm not sure football is a destination job anymore, but that's just me being a dick Would UM pony up the cash to keep him if needed?

3: Trying to rebuild in a very good conference. Much like UM football has been for decades, MSU and Izzo are the big brother when it comes to basketball. Purdue, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Ohio State have their programs established. Indiana is going to get recruits. It leaves Beilein fighting for the midwest scraps with Iowa, Minny, PSU, and NW. Now, he's going to steal some recruits from MSU, Purdue, etc. But unless you're a gumpy white guy who can shoot the three, UM isn't going to be the first choice for a lot of recruits. And even then, if you meet that description, you're better off at Wisconsin. Despite what the Detroit papers say, the fab five aren't relevant anymore.

I think Beilein is a good coach and by all accounts he seems like a good guy. Even being a UM coach, I like the guy. God knows he's an improvement over Ellerbe and Tommy Turtleneck. I just wonder what the ceiling for UM basketball is these days.

1. I agree with you so I can't argue. I don't know if it will work great in the B10. I do think (and Izzo just said the same recently) that the B10's physical brand gets so overrated. MSU/WISC play the hard nosed Bo/Woody brand of basketball, U-M/PUR is more of a system/3 pointers, MINN is all about the D, and OSU plays pro style. If he can't win B10 titles then it was the wrong hire IMO. I think its clear the guy can coach though. I was hoping for a NIT this season, and NCAA the next maybe. That team won 10 games last season, had 2 former walk-ons playing way too many minutes, and added 3 recruits who had 0-1 D1 offers. That didn't sound like improvement to me, but somehow it clicked.

Neither are going pro as far as I know. It would be foolish to do that (I think at best case scenario both would be late 2nd rounders). It would be like that MSU player a few years back (was that Lorbek?)

2. Beilien is here for the long run. He's like what you always say about Dantonio at MSU. He loves the place to death, and feels like he has been here forever. I've heard the only job he would even consider is Syracuse, but who even knows if they would want him if that time comes. I think Michigan is a destination school (shocking, I know). Yes, they lack the prestigious aspect to most now because of the past 15 years, but there are new facilities on the way, a Crisler makeover after that, academics, the B10, and overall tradition of the school. WVU has none of that.

3. I don't really agree with that, but you're not alone on that, because there are thousands of U-M fans who think the same thing. Beilien has the 2 highest rated players he has ever got coming in next year. One is from Cali, and one from ILL. Don't get me wrong though finding diamonds in the rough like Douglass/Novak is nice, but he still needs to get a higher caliber player to be a force in the B10. So far he is on the right track. My biggest concern is who is going to replace Manny/Sims. No recruit committed fits the bill. He does have a few targets who can fit the bill, but he needs to close on it.

I agree on the "gumpy white guy" comment, but I have two things to say on that. 1st: I think Manny Harris, and Deshawn Sims will ease a lot of that stereotype, because both are Detroit boys who do not seem like fits, but they are proving it wrong. 2nd: In football, and in basketball 90% of the very good instate athletes have looked at U-M and MSU very hard. It doesn't matter if it was Lucas, Summers, Long, Woodley, Cleaves, or anyone else. All these guys looked at their rival hard. Last year many people said Draymond Green went to bed as a Wolverine, and woke up a Spartan. He is another player who doesn't seem like a fit, but Beilien wanted him.

Overall, I have my concerns, but am really looking forward to the future. I think U-M needs to get more physical like you mention. They can still play their 3 point shooting game, while being physical at the same time. I'm fine with these "sleeper" recruits because Beilien has a history of finding the good ones, but with that said you still need those type flight difference makers.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Blak: I think you're really underestimating the attraction of Michigan to recruits. I mean, take a look at Darius Morris from CA, a guy that's on all the big lists, had a USC offer and came to Michigan instead. Even when we were terrible we got some pretty good recruits in - I mean, what's the difference between the Michigan that brought in Manny Harris and the Michigan of now, except for a tournament appearance? There will always be tremendous recruits out of Detroit and elsewhere in the state that will listen to Michigan before they listen to Purdue or Wisconsin.

And if Beilein leaves for greener pastures, so be it. It means he did a good enough job to be noticed by someone pretty darn important. I'm not swimming in the Kool-Aid like mannysbetter up there in thinking that Beilein is definitely staying for good and ever, but again, if someone bigger and better comes calling, and he takes it, it means we're already doing pretty well and can probably find a damn good replacement.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

And if Beilein leaves for greener pastures, so be it. It means he did a good enough job to be noticed by someone pretty darn important. I'm not swimming in the Kool-Aid like mannysbetter up there in thinking that Beilein is definitely staying for good and ever, but again, if someone bigger and better comes calling, and he takes it, it means we're already doing pretty well and can probably find a damn good replacement.

I agree with that, and it really isn't Kool-Aid on that point . I remember saying during fall maybe Dantonio will go someplace else if he keeps improving, and Black said he really believed he thought he was at home unless OSU opened up someday. I think we have the same feeling on our coaches.

It's like when Andy Katz was on ESPN a few weeks back talking about the Zona job. Someone thought it was crazy that guys like Capel, and Floyd turned it down, but Katz said why goto a prestigious school with all kinds of unrealistic expectations when they already have good facilities, and can still get good recruits? Once the practice facilities and Crisler are done I see it as a similar situation. Same can be said for Dantonio. They are doing a lot for football in East Lansing now with their new building, and other plans.

Edited April 13, 2009 by mannysBETTER3434

[betterREDthandead 58]

I agree with that, and it really isn't Kool-Aid on that point . I remember saying during fall maybe Dantonio will go someplace else if he keeps improving, and Black said he really believed he thought he was at home unless OSU opened up someday. I think we have the same feeling on our coaches.

It's like when Andy Katz was on ESPN a few weeks back talking about the Zona job. Someone thought it was crazy that guys like Capel, and Floyd turned it down, but Katz said why goto a prestigious school with all kinds of unrealistic expectations when they already have good facilities, and can still get good recruits? Once the practice facilities and Crisler are done I see it as a similar situation. Same can be said for Dantonio. They are doing a lot for football in East Lansing now with their new building, and other plans.

See, I don't think Dantonio exactly bleeds green either. Maybe I'm just cynical - coaches are always, always looking for the next job as far as I'm concerned, with only a few exceptions, like Coach K or Izzo. You can't really blame them, when they get fired at the drop of a hat, too. But coaches always say they're happy where they are, and always find a reason to leave even if not fired.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

See, I don't think Dantonio exactly bleeds green either. Maybe I'm just cynical - coaches are always, always looking for the next job as far as I'm concerned, with only a few exceptions, like Coach K or Izzo. You can't really blame them, when they get fired at the drop of a hat, too. But coaches always say they're happy where they are, and always find a reason to leave even if not fired.

That is very true, and how we got the football coach

[BlakChamber 8]

Michigan at 9???

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/stor...&id=4105841

Katz (who I usually think is on top of things) has MSU and UM too high.

Losing Suton and Walton is going to hurt MSU more than people realize. Walton was one of the best defenders the Big 10 and the country, that's tough to replace. We saw what happened to MSU early in the season when Suton was out. One of the big men is going to have to step up next year. A year of experience under everyone's belt is going to help though. I'd put MSU in the 4 - 7 range for next year.

Having Harris and Sims not go to the NBA is a huge boost for UM and having everyone back with another year experience in Beileins system is going to help as well. Unfortunately for UM, the Big 10 is going to be good enough where good teams are going to end up with losses. UM absolutely deserves to start the season ranked, but not in the top 10. I'd say the 15 - 20 range is the appropriate spot for them.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

I agree with you. I would even put U-M lower then you think. I would say 20-25. I've said it before, but I think they are going to have a rocky start with a brand new PG, and having 2 big men on the floor at once.