Would you trade

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I think the bias on this board is way too high sometimes. If you were to present a trade to any GM in the NHL or any of the so called experts in the hockey shows, I am sure 95% of them would take Crosby in a heartbeat for Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

I love the Euro twins myself but wow at how many people wouldn't trade for one of the two faces of the NHL. Crosby at his peak will score probably close to 50 more points than either Z or Dats' best year in the league. He's already 23 points ahead three years in.

I agree about the bias, but "or" is the key word here.

talk about trading Datsyuk or Zetterberg for Crosby, and there's things to debate and consider. But the thread title says Datsyuk "&" Zetterberg, which would be nuts.

[Opie 308]

I think the bias on this board is way too high sometimes. If you were to present a trade to any GM in the NHL or any of the so called experts in the hockey shows, I am sure 95% of them would take Crosby in a heartbeat for Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

I love the Euro twins myself but wow at how many people wouldn't trade for one of the two faces of the NHL. Crosby at his peak will score probably close to 50 more points than either Z or Dats' best year in the league. He's already 23 points ahead three years in.

But to some of us the fact that Z and D were able to shut down Crosby is the deciding factor, especially since Crosby can not at the current time shut down Hudler, let alone some one of Z or D's skills.

Some of us think that the defensive part of the game is just as important as the offensive side.

Lets say Crosby scores 15 points more than Z this season, how many goals does Z prevent with his defensive play, how many does Crosby.

To me the trade is a wash, yes Crosby is unbelievably gifted, but Z and D are not light years behind him in skill, they are top 10 in the league as well (IMO) however they are top 3 in the league (by Selke votes) defensively. Crosby is not top 25 in the league defensively.

And it is not like we are picking John Madden over Crosby, a very very good defensive player with limited offensive upside, we are choosing an elite forward in the game who also happens to play elite level defense over an offensive power house.

I do not trade Z or D for Crosby at this time in their careers. In 1, 2, 3, 4 years my opinion may change, but currently there is no value added by bringing in Crosby over Z or D. *Well maybe he puts more butts in the seats.

BTW you being sure that 95% of GM's would take Crosby does not make it an actual fact, until the GM's are polled on the issue it is mere speculation.

Plus are you talking about GM's with none of the players looking at the three or a GM having Z and looking to trade for Crosby.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Opie

[esteef 2,679]

But to some of us the fact that Z and D were able to shut down Crosby is the deciding factor, especially since Crosby can not at the current time shut down Hudler, let alone some one of Z or D's skills.

QFT!

[Guest MrSandMan]

hell.no

Who would be so stupid to disassemble a proven winning team?

Pens will be like the ducks. Nothing more, nothing less.

[chrisdetroit 189]

I would do it.... would you?

Discuss.

BOTH of them? Hell no. One or the other might be worth debating - I wouldn't do it but some people might but BOTH?

You're kidding right?

[chrisdetroit 189]

I'll be honest, I was trying to stir the pot with my 1st post just to see some reactions. But with that said, if you wouldn't trade one of the two for Crosby, you really need to take off the blinders.

He's 21 years old. 294 points in 213 games. Two 100 points seasons as an 18 year old and 19 year old (102, 120). +25 on a team that was completely awful for his first year. He completey changed that franchise around. Last place to Cup finals in 2 years. I could go on, but you get the point.

Pavs won the Selke last year for best defensive forward in the entire league. Sidney wasn't even a finalist. Not my opinion but the opinion of a lot of sports writers that know alot more about the NHL than me or you. So based on last year, Pavs was better. This year and next year - who knows, one could get better than the other.

Hank won the Conn Smythe as the MVP of the playoffs. That would be the same playoffs that Sydney played in. Again, not just my opinion. Based on last year, Hank was better in the playoffs than Sydney.

So if you want to make this trade, it means that you think that Sydney will get better than one of these guys, depending on which you want to trade. That my friend, is pure speculation.

Right now, according to alot of people that votes on awards, either Hank or Pavs is better than Sydney. I'll stick with the Euro twins rather than trade on the hope that Sydney will one day be better than them.

As far as age, both Hank and Pavs have at least 5 more years before age starts to creep in and alot can happen in 5 years.

[egroen 384]

Holland would trade Z *or* D for Crosby if given the opportunity... there is not much doubt in my mind about that. Luckily, he will never get the opportunity because a large part of me would hate to see it happen.

But to some of us the fact that Z and D were able to shut down Crosby is the deciding factor, especially since Crosby can not at the current time shut down Hudler, let alone some one of Z or D's skills.

Actually, I was pretty amazed at Crosby' ability to still produce against Detroit in the SCF. He was shut down in the first two games of course, but really was the catalyst for making some of those games even close. He is definitely the real deal.

BTW you being sure that 95% of GM's would take Crosby does not make it an actual fact, until the GM's are polled on the issue it is mere speculation.

TSN did that poll recently and the 30 GM's used a 5-3-1 weighted system.

1) Sidney Crosby (PIT) -- 98

2) Alexander Ovechkin (WAS) -- 68

3) Roberto Luongo (VAN) -- 38

4) Dion Phaneuf (CGY) -- 21

5) Henrik Zetterberg (DET) --12

[chrisdetroit 189]

I think the bias on this board is way too high sometimes. If you were to present a trade to any GM in the NHL or any of the so called experts in the hockey shows, I am sure 95% of them would take Crosby in a heartbeat for Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

I love the Euro twins myself but wow at how many people wouldn't trade for one of the two faces of the NHL. Crosby at his peak will score probably close to 50 more points than either Z or Dats' best year in the league. He's already 23 points ahead three years in.

Then why didn't those same experts give Crosby the Selke that they gave to Pavel? Or why didn't he get the Conn Smyth that Hank got? They were voted on by the "hockey experts"

Actually, I watched the NHL awards show in June and Crosby didn't take home any hardware and all of the hardware was voted on by the hockey "experts"

It seems like you are the one that is biased toward Crosby.

An your "95%" quote is wrong. It's fine to express an opinion but you shouldn't be making stuff up to validate it.

[egroen 384]

Or why didn't he get the Conn Smyth that Hank got?

He had the same points as Zetterberg in less games. I am sure if the Penguins had won, Crosby would have gotten the Conn Smythe (and not Zetterberg).

Sheesh, I don't like Crosby as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to pretend he is not a phenomenal talent already at an age when Datsyuk and Zetterberg were not even in the league. The only risk you take with him is that he does not improve one bit, and that is still awfully good. At his age, the smart money says he does improve.

[chrisdetroit 189]

Holland would trade Z *or* D for Crosby if given the opportunity... there is not much doubt in my mind about that. Luckily, he will never get the opportunity because a large part of me would hate to see it happen.

Actually, I was pretty amazed at Crosby' ability to still produce against Detroit in the SCF. He was shut down in the first two games of course, but really was the catalyst for making some of those games even close. He is definitely the real deal.

TSN did that poll recently and the 30 GM's used a 5-3-1 weighted system.

1) Sidney Crosby (PIT) -- 98

2) Alexander Ovechkin (WAS) -- 68

3) Roberto Luongo (VAN) -- 38

4) Dion Phaneuf (CGY) -- 21

5) Henrik Zetterberg (DET) --12

You misquoted them. The question posed to the GM's was if you could pick 1 player to build your team around who would it be.

The article is here:

TSN Poll

That's a much differnt question. If they had a crappy team and they could pick 1 player, they chose Crosby. If they already had a great team like the Wings, the choice might be different (it would be for me) but they weren't asked that question.

Lastly, without Hossa, the Penguins are swept in the SCF if they even get that far. Crosby is great but he's not that great.

[egroen 384]

Heh... it certainly is not that much different.

I think it is pretty safe to say Ovechkin is about the only guy any GM would hesitate trading for Crosby right now.

[McCartyFanForLife 17]

No!

Crosby can't even play on the power play. He wouldn't add anything to the team we don't already have.

Aside from that reason, I don't want him on our team because I don't ever want him to win the Stanley Cup

[obey86 0]

Pavs won the Selke last year for best defensive forward in the entire league. Sidney wasn't even a finalist. Not my opinion but the opinion of a lot of sports writers that know alot more about the NHL than me or you. So based on last year, Pavs was better. This year and next year - who knows, one could get better than the other.

Hank won the Conn Smythe as the MVP of the playoffs. That would be the same playoffs that Sydney played in. Again, not just my opinion. Based on last year, Hank was better in the playoffs than Sydney.

So if you want to make this trade, it means that you think that Sydney will get better than one of these guys, depending on which you want to trade. That my friend, is pure speculation.

Right now, according to alot of people that votes on awards, either Hank or Pavs is better than Sydney. I'll stick with the Euro twins rather than trade on the hope that Sydney will one day be better than them.

As far as age, both Hank and Pavs have at least 5 more years before age starts to creep in and alot can happen in 5 years.

According to the people who vote on awards (who as you stated know alot more about the NHL than you and I) Crosby was voted the winner of the Lester B. Pearson and Hart Memorial trophies in 2007. Safe to say that if he had not gotten injured last season he would have been in the top 3 again with a chance to win. The best Datsyuk has done is 9th in 2008, best Z has done is 10th in 2008. I think basing your argument on whoever won the Selke is incredibly dumb. Basing it on any award is dumb for that matter because you know as well as I do that sports writers fall victim to the same things that fans do, they like flashiness. Which is why Lidstrom probably will never win the MVP even if he deserves it.

Even if I was going to use the award argument (which as I stated is stupid) CROSBY HAS WON THE MVP WHICH HAS ALOT MORE CLOUT THAN THE SELKE EVER WILL. Don't say Dats is a better player because he won the Selke that's retarded. Basing being a better player on winning a defensive award is stupid. And as someone stated after you made the dumb remark about the Conn Smythe, if the Pens would have won the SCF CRosby obviously would have won the trophy. That is nearly always the deciding factor..

Purely for this season I take Z or Dats over Crosby. However, you can't look at it like that in a vacuum, you have to look at this season and the future at the same time which is why I am taking Crosby.

Edited October 22, 2008 by obey86

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

No!

Crosby can't even play on the power play. He wouldn't add anything to the team we don't already have.

Aside from that reason, I don't want him on our team because I don't ever want him to win the Stanley Cup

I am assuming you meant penalty kill instead of power play?

But what about 5-6 years from now when some more new faces roll in and he probably still isn't in his prime age of his career yet being in his mid-20s. Theoretically speaking if his play doesn't drop off much and discounting "attention" he gets, would you consider not so much a trade to bring him in, but wanting him on our team?

Edited October 22, 2008 by SouthernWingsFan

[daniel1 32]

I am assuming you meant penalty kill instead of power play?

But what about 5-6 years from now when some more new faces roll in and he probably still isn't in his prime age of his career yet being in his mid-20s. Theoretically speaking if his play doesn't drop off much and discounting "attention" he gets, would you consider not so much a trade to bring him in, but wanting him on our team?

I dunno... is he still going to be a whiny pouty little suck who blames everyone else and can't play defense to save his life? If so, then "no".

Points are NOT the ultimate measure of a player, they're a good indication of their offensive talent but not their true worth to a team. Leadership, accountability, mentoring, defense, and willingness to put the team ahead of the individual are all reasons why I wouldn't trade either Z or D for Crybaby. Some people mature and grow out of the "me first" mentality but honestly do you think Crybaby would EVER sign a discounted long term deal so we could afford to bring other good players in like Lidstrom did? Lids even took a pay CUT after winning the Norris so that the Wings could keep the team competitive.

Until he grows up and matures (if he ever does) then I wouldn't consider signing him. Something to keep in mind is how well his teamates like playing on the same team as this prima dona and his own personal traveling ad campaign. Look how many GOOD players bolted the Pens after coming so close to winning a Cup the year before. Maybe they all got sick of him hogging the spotlight and didn't want to be thought of as just "supporting cast" to his leading role anymore.

I'm not a Crybaby lover by any means; I think he's selfish and undisciplined and even other "stars" in the league have come to the same conclusion (Kovalchuk) about him so I'm glad he's not on the Wings. We didn't need him to win the Cup last year and we won't need him to win the Cup again this year.

[obey86 0]

I dunno... is he still going to be a whiny pouty little suck who blames everyone else and can't play defense to save his life? If so, then "no".

Points are NOT the ultimate measure of a player, they're a good indication of their offensive talent but not their true worth to a team. Leadership, accountability, mentoring, defense, and willingness to put the team ahead of the individual are all reasons why I wouldn't trade either Z or D for Crybaby. Some people mature and grow out of the "me first" mentality but honestly do you think Crybaby would EVER sign a discounted long term deal so we could afford to bring other good players in like Lidstrom did? Lids even took a pay CUT after winning the Norris so that the Wings could keep the team competitive.

Until he grows up and matures (if he ever does) then I wouldn't consider signing him. Something to keep in mind is how well his teamates like playing on the same team as this prima dona and his own personal traveling ad campaign. Look how many GOOD players bolted the Pens after coming so close to winning a Cup the year before. Maybe they all got sick of him hogging the spotlight and didn't want to be thought of as just "supporting cast" to his leading role anymore.

I'm not a Crybaby lover by any means; I think he's selfish and undisciplined and even other "stars" in the league have come to the same conclusion (Kovalchuk) about him so I'm glad he's not on the Wings. We didn't need him to win the Cup last year and we won't need him to win the Cup again this year.

Yeah who would want a player who can put up 120 points a season? Those guys are a dime a dozen. I wouldn't take Crosby even if he played for free.

You can't compare the Pens organization to the Wings organization. You can't compare the Wings organization to any other organization in the NHL for that matter. So blaming the loss of the free agents on Crosby is ridiculous. Unless you are the Wings, no player is going to take ALOT less money to stay then they could get elsewhere. Especially the way GM's throw around money to free agents like that Finger guy who went to Toronto. The Pens were capped out because the front office isn't as good as ours simple as that. If they had the same amount of money as the other teams to offer to the players they lost I guarantee they would have stayed.

MONEY TALKS

Edited October 23, 2008 by obey86

[Dabura 12,207]

esteef knows the score. Sure, Crosby is a superstar, and sure, his potential is through the ceiling. And sure, he is, in fact, a truly phenomenal player at the ridiculously young age of 21. But if we're talking about bringing him to the Wings, and at the cost of Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg, we have to acknowledge the fact that this is not just a matter of swapping superstars; Crosby is not "basically interchangeable" with Datsyuk or Zetterberg in this equation. Like I've said, this team is built around three players: Lidstrom and the Euro Twins. You take away even one of the Twins and you're making an extremely significant change to a number of facets of this team and to the franchise at large. In terms of their style of play and the way they conduct themselves (on and off the ice), Z & D epitomize what we recognize today as Red Wings Hockey -- and, being in their prime, they "epitomize" it really frickin' well. Phenomenal two-way play, virtually limitless skill, class, a no-nonsense work ethic -- this is what the Wings aspire to. This is the engine behind the Big Red Machine.

Crosby is, like I said, an absurdly talented hockey player -- and he's years away from his prime. Which is kind of mind-boggling. In all likelihood, he's only going to get better from here -- but that's not a sure thing, and even if it were a sure thing, does it make perfect sense for the Wings? That's what management would have to ask if faced with the prospect of shipping Z and/or D for him. If it were just one of the Twins, I might be for it, but even then...eh. Bringing Crosby in would ostensibly signal a change in direction: a change in philosophy, a change in leadership, a change in long-term plans. His defensive game is not nearly as good as Z's or D's. Chemistry might be an issue. He complains a lot, so much so that it's literally a part of his game right now. I understand the argument that Dats went postal after one of those phantom Homer no-goals, but I think even Mother Teresa would've s*** a brick over that sorry-ass excuse for "officiating." Point being, Z & D are generally very classy and, well, non-bitchy. They set a great example for the rest of the team, which in turn reflects quite nicely on the organization, which in turn reflects well on the city. Crosby, for all his talent and potential, comes from a different school and is in a different headspace right now. I'm not just sitting here knocking him; I'm getting more at this organization's need (or lack thereof) for him and potential compatibility (or lack thereof) with him.

Edited October 23, 2008 by Dabura

[obey86 0]

esteef knows the score. Sure, Crosby is a superstar, and sure, his potential is through the ceiling. And sure, he is, in fact, a truly phenomenal player at the ridiculously young age of 21. But if we're talking about bringing him to the Wings, and at the cost of Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg, we have to acknowledge the fact that this is not just a matter of swapping superstars; Crosby is not "basically interchangeable" with Datsyuk or Zetterberg in this equation. Like I've said, this team is built around three players: Lidstrom and the Euro Twins. You take away even one of the Twins and you're making an extremely significant change to a number of facets of this team and to the franchise at large. In terms of their style of play and the way they conduct themselves (on and off the ice), Z & D epitomize what we recognize today as Red Wings Hockey -- and, being in their prime, they "epitomize" it really frickin' well. Phenomenal two-way play, virtually limitless skill, class, a no-nonsense work ethic -- this is what the Wings aspire to. This is the engine behind the Big Red Machine.

Crosby is, like I said, an absurdly talented hockey player -- and he's years away from his prime. Which is kind of mind-boggling. In all likelihood, he's only going to get better from here -- but that's not a sure thing, and even if it were a sure thing, does it make perfect sense for the Wings? That's what management would have to ask if faced with the prospect of shipping Z and/or D for him. If it were just one of the Twins, I might be for it, but even then...eh. Bringing Crosby in would ostensibly signal a change in direction: a change in philosophy, a change in leadership, a change in long-term plans. His defensive game is not nearly as good as Z's or D's. Chemistry might be an issue. He complains a lot, so much so that it's literally a part of his game right now. I understand the argument that Dats went postal after one of those phantom Homer no-goals, but I think even Mother Teresa would've s*** a brick over that sorry-ass excuse for "officiating." Point being, Z & D are generally very classy and, well, non-bitchy. They set a great example for the rest of the team, which in turn reflects quite nicely on the organization, which in turn reflects well on the city. Crosby, for all his talent and potential, comes from a different school and is in a different headspace right now. I'm not just sitting here knocking him; I'm getting more at this organization's need (or lack thereof) for him and potential compatbility (or lack thereof) with him.

Why is it ok for Dats to ***** about the "officiating" but if Crosby ******* about the "officiating" he is a whiner?

[obey86 0]

CROSBY

-21 years old

-Considered top 2 player in NHL by media

-More overall “upside” at this point

-Missed significant time in 2008 season

-Top season of 120 pts

-More of a playmaker

-More dynamic offensively

-Worse defensive player

-Generally does not play on PK unit

-Plays on PP unit

-Less offensive talent on Pens

-Less defensive talent on Pens

-Played with Gonchar last season (good but more of an offensive D-man)

-Won Hart, Art Ross, Pearson

-Considered whiny by Detroiters

-Worse at face-offs last season (51%)

-Did well when thrust into spotlight at young age while carrying a bad team

-Less physical player

-Cannot grow a playoff beard

ZETTERBERG

-28 years old

-Considered top 10 player in NHL by media

-In prime of career, has probably nearly peaked

-Known to be injury-prone

-Top season of 92 points

-More of a scorer

-Less dynamic offensively

-Better defensive player

-Plays on PK unit

-Plays on PP unit

-Superior offensive talent on Wings

-Superior defensive talent on Wings

-Played with Lidstrom nearly every shift last season (considered by some top D-man ever)

-Won Conn Smythe

-Considered non-whiny by Detroiters

-Better at face-offs (55%)

-Allowed to play through mistakes while learning NHL game

-More physical player

-Can grow a playoff beard

I'm sure I missed a bunch of things and may be wrong about some things but I just put this list together real fast. Enlighten me so I can add to the list if need be.

Edited October 23, 2008 by obey86

[daniel1 32]

Yeah who would want a player who can put up 120 points a season? Those guys are a dime a dozen. I wouldn't take Crosby even if he played for free.

You can't compare the Pens organization to the Wings organization. You can't compare the Wings organization to any other organization in the NHL for that matter. So blaming the loss of the free agents on Crosby is ridiculous. Unless you are the Wings, no player is going to take ALOT less money to stay then they could get elsewhere. Especially the way GM's throw around money to free agents like that Finger guy who went to Toronto. The Pens were capped out because the front office isn't as good as ours simple as that. If they had the same amount of money as the other teams to offer to the players they lost I guarantee they would have stayed.

MONEY TALKS

Would you trade Holmstrom for Ray Whitney? Or for Kristian Huselius? Of course not, but they both have better numbers than Homer. We all know Homer's value isn't just the points he puts up but the role he plays on the PP and on the top line as the "corner guy" chasing down pucks. It's the same with Z or Dats for Crosby; the points don't tell the whole story so I don't really care that Crosby put up 120 points a season. Malkin had more point last year than Datsyuk did too but you won't find many people that would trade Dats for Malkin. Crosby is not worth what either Z or Dats brings to the Red Wings at this point when both of them have many years of good hockey left in them. There is the chemistry issue here as well which should be obvious even to a 3rd grader.

I'm not comparing the Wings organization to the Pens either, I'm stating why I wouldn't trade Z or Dats for Crosby. As far as other players taking discounts to play for their current organization or one they really want to be with there are lots of examples other than Red Wings such as the contract Alfredsson is on with Ottawa or the year both Kariya and Selanne signed with the Avs (and that was even pre-cap era). The Pens were not "capped-out" either; they could have easily afforded Laraque, Hall, Roberts, Ruuttu and Conklin had they wanted to stay there. Malone and Hossa may have been beyond what they wanted to spend but that still doesn't change the fact they opted to leave. They actually were offering Hossa more money than what the Wings gave him so $$ wasn't the issue. I would bet stand up guys like Roberts, Hossa and Malone were sick of the whinng from little ******* like Therien and Crosby... on national TV no less. Who would want to be lumped in with those two?

[STK 0]

CROSBY

-21 years old

-Considered top 2 player in NHL by media

-More overall “upside” at this point

-Missed significant time in 2008 season

-Top season of 120 pts

-More of a playmaker

-More dynamic offensively

-Worse defensive player

-Generally does not play on PK unit

-Plays on PP unit

-Less offensive talent on Pens

-Less defensive talent on Pens

-Played with Gonchar last season (good but more of an offensive D-man)

-Won Hart, Art Ross, Pearson

-Considered whiny by Detroiters

-Worse at face-offs last season (51%)

-Did well when thrust into spotlight at young age while carrying a bad team

-Less physical player

-Cannot grow a playoff beard

ZETTERBERG

-28 years old

-Considered top 10 player in NHL by media

-In prime of career, has probably nearly peaked

-Known to be injury-prone

-Top season of 92 points

-More of a scorer

-Less dynamic offensively

-Better defensive player

-Plays on PK unit

-Plays on PP unit

-Superior offensive talent on Wings

-Superior defensive talent on Wings

-Played with Lidstrom nearly every shift last season (considered by some top D-man ever)

-Won Conn Smythe

-Considered non-whiny by Detroiters

-Better at face-offs (55%)

-Allowed to play through mistakes while learning NHL game

-More physical player

-Can grow a playoff beard

I'm sure I missed a bunch of things and may be wrong about some things but I just put this list together real fast. Enlighten me so I can add to the list if need be.

Crosby does play on the PK. He is now in the Penguins top 4, actually.

[obey86 0]

Would you trade Holmstrom for Ray Whitney? Or for Kristian Huselius? Of course not, but they both have better numbers than Homer. We all know Homer's value isn't just the points he puts up but the role he plays on the PP and on the top line as the "corner guy" chasing down pucks. It's the same with Z or Dats for Crosby; the points don't tell the whole story so I don't really care that Crosby put up 120 points a season. Malkin had more point last year than Datsyuk did too but you won't find many people that would trade Dats for Malkin. Crosby is not worth what either Z or Dats brings to the Red Wings at this point when both of them have many years of good hockey left in them. There is the chemistry issue here as well which should be obvious even to a 3rd grader.

Uhmmmm you clearly stated you wouldn't "sign" him in your previous post. You wouldn't have to trade anybody to sign a player you do know this right? If you wouldn't "sign" a 100+ point player (considering you can still keep all the other players you want) because he whines you are dumber than I thought. At least people arguing they wouldn't trade Z or Dats have valid points. But if affordable and possible not signing a top 5 player because he whines is ridiculous.

I expect you to want Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Z, and Dats off the team the next time they complain about a call.

Edited October 23, 2008 by obey86

[daniel1 32]

Crybaby's whining isn't just restricted to the refs, did you see ANY of the post-game interviews during the Cup finals? It was like Therien and Crybaby were having a contest to see who needed the biggest pacifier shoved in their pie holes at the end of each interview; I was embarrassed for them and I don't even cheer for Pittsburgh. When the Wings lost games Z and Dats accepted the responsibility that they didn't play well enough or hard enough. That's called accountability my friend and it's something Crybaby hasn't learned yet. Whether he ever does is tough to predict; that may just be his nature.

Deflecting blame and trying to make yourself look good by refusing to acknowledge you've been outplayed rather than accepting your own mistakes or poor effort is kinda like calling a fellow poster "dumb" simply because they don't agree with your opinion. I think you've been "obeying" #86 far too literally and copying his childish behavior.

Take the high road here bud; if you don't agree with someone just acknowledge it and thank them for their input. Or maybe I should ask you act more like Lidstrom and less like Crybaby.

Edited October 23, 2008 by daniel1

[obey86 0]

Would you trade Holmstrom for Ray Whitney? Or for Kristian Huselius? Of course not, but they both have better numbers than Homer. We all know Homer's value isn't just the points he puts up but the role he plays on the PP and on the top line as the "corner guy" chasing down pucks. It's the same with Z or Dats for Crosby; the points don't tell the whole story so I don't really care that Crosby put up 120 points a season. Malkin had more point last year than Datsyuk did too but you won't find many people that would trade Dats for Malkin. Crosby is not worth what either Z or Dats brings to the Red Wings at this point when both of them have many years of good hockey left in them. There is the chemistry issue here as well which should be obvious even to a 3rd grader.

I'm not comparing the Wings organization to the Pens either, I'm stating why I wouldn't trade Z or Dats for Crosby. As far as other players taking discounts to play for their current organization or one they really want to be with there are lots of examples other than Red Wings such as the contract Alfredsson is on with Ottawa or the year both Kariya and Selanne signed with the Avs (and that was even pre-cap era). The Pens were not "capped-out" either; they could have easily afforded Laraque, Hall, Roberts, Ruuttu and Conklin had they wanted to stay there. Malone and Hossa may have been beyond what they wanted to spend but that still doesn't change the fact they opted to leave. They actually were offering Hossa more money than what the Wings gave him so $$ wasn't the issue. I would bet stand up guys like Roberts, Hossa and Malone were sick of the whinng from little ******* like Therien and Crosby... on national TV no less. Who would want to be lumped in with those two?

Laraque, Hall, Roberts, and Ruutuu were easily expendable while they were waiting to hear from Hossa. At the point that Hossa had rejected the Pens offer and signed with the Wings for less money, those players were already gone.

Did you just think this up yourself or are you actually going on something that you heard or read from a reliable source. Don't go saying that these players left because they didnt like playing with Crosby unless you know that for a fact. How is something YOU made up that may or may not be true (we have no way to know) a valid point in a debate?

[obey86 0]

Crybaby's whining isn't just restricted to the refs, did you see ANY of the post-game interviews during the Cup finals? It was like Therien and Crybaby were having a contest to see who needed the biggest pacifier shoved in their pie holes at the end of each interview; I was embarrassed for them and I don't even cheer for Pittsburgh. When the Wings lost games Z and Dats accepted the responsibility that they didn't play well enough or hard enough. That's called accountability my friend and it's something Crybaby hasn't learned yet. Whether he ever does is tough to predict; that may just be his nature.

Deflecting blame and trying to make yourself look good by refusing to acknowledge you've been outplayed rather than accepting your own mistakes or poor effort is kinda like calling a fellow poster "dumb" simply because they don't agree with your opinion. I think you've been "obeying" #86 far too literally and copying his childish behavior.

Take the high road here bud; if you don't agree with someone just acknowledge it and thank them for their input. Or maybe I should ask you act more like Lidstrom and less like Crybaby.

And exactly who is #86? I just randomly picked the number, I thought maybe it was Crosby's but I looked it up and he is 87 so I do not know who you are referring to.