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Toronto might get a second NHL team.


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#41 Dawgs

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 05:25 AM

I bet Hamilton could support a team. Its a large suburb only about 20 miles from downtown Toronto. London would be a good choice too. Halfway between Toronto and Detroit it could draw fans of both teams. The big problem initially is how a bad expansion team could draw enough fans in its first few seasons to remain viable with two of the original 6 and Buffalo so close.

I agree with others who have said it must be an existing franchise thats struggling. The talent pool is too watered down as it is. Atlanta, Nashville or one of the Florida teams would be a good move.

#42 rbochan

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 08:55 AM

Toronto couldn't even muster up 2000 people at the Marlies (baby Leafs) PLAYOFFS games last season. Syracuse Crunch fans out cheered and just about outnumbered them in their own arena.

WTF would they add another team there?

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#43 CdnWingsFanEh

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 09:00 AM

QUOTE (CenterIce @ October 21, 2008 - 03:54PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One thing I am wondering about Hamilton is that I think their are in the expansion territory of Detroit, Toronto, and Buffalo, which would mean that those three teams would get to veto the addition. Also, the new team would have to pay all three teams an expansion fee. That would be expensive.


Hamilton is within the territiory rights of Toronto, and possibly Buffalo, but most definately NOT Detroit. They would not have to pay the fees to the Wings. And if another team were to come to either Toronto, or Hamilton, either of those cities would be farther east than Detroit...

I have a feeling that when this was being discussed, Hamilton may have been what they were talking about, even though the say Toronto, as it often gets lumped in with Toronto, ewven though it's an entire different city, just because it's so close, and Toronto is so big.

Note: Hamilton is not a suburb, it has a population of just over 500,000. But with Toronto's population being in the millions, Hamilton gets lumped in with them a lot...

Hamilton could very easily support an NHL team, no problem. Frankly I doubt they'd have any problem selling out on a regular basis. Southern Ontario is a hotbed of hockey, and frankly, the Leafs are a hard team to get tickets to, so I think a lot of people would be willing to go to Hamilton for tickets. Hamilton is approximately 1 hour from Toronto, which most people would travel for a game...
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#44 CdnWingsFanEh

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 09:04 AM

QUOTE (rbochan @ October 22, 2008 - 09:55AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Toronto couldn't even muster up 2000 people at the Marlies (baby Leafs) PLAYOFFS games last season. Syracuse Crunch fans out cheered and just about outnumbered them in their own arena.

WTF would they add another team there?


B/c the marlies aren't an NHL team. Yes, it may be pro hockey, but lets be honest people aren't nearly as interested in farm team hockey as they are in NHL hockey. People want to watch games with the big names in them, not the up and coming big names. Or in the case of the marlies, the up and coming not so big names...


Some people are like Slinkies... Not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.

Facts. Who needs facts? You can prove anything with facts... 10% of all people know that...

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#45 superdeluxe

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 10:09 AM

Seattle needs a team!

#46 edicius

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 01:16 PM

QUOTE (eva unit zero @ October 21, 2008 - 04:49PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
For Toronto to get a second NHL team...

Wouldn't they have to have a first one?


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#47 F.Michael

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 03:10 PM

The only way we'd see another NHL franchise in Southern Ontario is with the MLSE giving it it's 'blessing' - along with 1 massive payout.

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#48 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 03:16 PM

QUOTE (Jwo @ October 21, 2008 - 02:42PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But the fact their fans don't/never have to stay up late at night to watch their team during the post season puts them in the back seat and puts Detroit in the front running.

That is absolutely incorrect. Just because Detroit has enjoyed more success since Columbus' inception most certainly doesn't mean Detroit is now the front runner to head East. That reasoning is completely off base.

Perhaps it was a joke....I hope atleast.
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#49 2probert4

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 03:17 PM

QUOTE (F.Michael @ October 22, 2008 - 03:10PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The only way we'd see another NHL franchise in Southern Ontario is with the MLSE giving it it's 'blessing' - along with 1 massive payout.


MLSE would get to rent the ACC to the new team....theres your payout you spoke of....

#50 BlueMonk

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 08:41 PM

Not the right place for this but I wasn't going to start another thread about it... Toskala played a solid game for the Leafs, who came back to tie Anaheim near the end of regulation with a late goal. No goals in OT, so they go to the shootout. Ron Wilson pulls Toskala and brings in Cujo, cold off the bench, for the shootout. Cujo allows goals on both the shootout attempts he faces and the Leafs lose the game.

Afterwards, Wilson explained that Cujo had a better career save percentage against shootouts, and that he didn't want Toskala out there in a shootout until he's had more time to "practice" them.

I'm not even going to comment on the whole thing. It speaks for itself.
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#51 Krystal

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 09:09 PM

QUOTE (Hockeytown0001 @ October 21, 2008 - 03:05PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And I'm not sure it would again. I lived in Kansas City for 9 years before coming back to MI...hockey was very unkown there. The only pro teams that people seemed to know about were the Red Wings, Blues, Stars, and Avs. The Kansas City Blades folded due to poor attendance. So I doubt a pro franchise would survive.


Eh, Blades didn't fold due to attendance. The entire IHL (of that time) folded into the AHL in '01 and only 6 teams made the cut to merge into the other league. Granted, the attendance didn't help persuade anyone to keep them through to the AHL - but competing against KC Chiefs tailgating, the monstrosity that is Kemper Arena, and the crappy public relations department... Yeah. Good luck with that.

Granted, I don't think an NHL team would really survive past a season or two (and then living purely off the novelty of a pro team, because the hockey folk in this town aren't enough to keep it afloat) but it gives me hope to dream tongue.gif

At least we'll get CHL hockey next season.. we're hoping. Ground got broken for a smaller venue in Independence that the CHL fully intends to expand into. If we can get that off to a good start - maybe it could breed the interest/desire for an NHL team. But.. no promises of course.

#52 eva unit zero

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 10:59 AM

DISCLAIMER: Normally, I don't argue for moving teams that have tradition and history in their current location. But for this post, I'm going to throw that out the window for the sake of argument.

Before the greater Toronto area gets another team, the League and its owners need to consider the similar large markets that have multiple teams. New York/New Jersey and Los Angeles/Anaheim in particular. Both markets could stand to lose a team.

NY/NJ has one team that consistently draws high attendance; the Rangers, and two teams that usually draw enough to get by. The Islanders and Devils fighting each other for the 'leftover' fans doesn't help either franchise. The Islanders would be the team I would choose from this market to relocate; they get the least fan support, and compete the most directly with the Rangers for fans so it would be the most difficult for them to build it up.

LA/ANH includes two teams, both with fairly weak tradition or history, and one team that is clearly favored by the locals as far as attendance. The Kings get much more local support despite the fact they have had significantly less success for their time in the league. Anaheim is the clear choice to relocate from this market, especially considering that their location and team name were a marketing gimmick by their original owner, who no longer owns them.

Beyond that, there are other teams which are in a middling state financially but might be better off elsewhere. Teams that are solo in their market that are in the league's bottom 10 in attendance and having potential financial issues: Phoenix, Nashville, Florida, Atlanta.

So we have six potential 'relocation' teams. Beyond that, as myself and others have stated on here before, 32 would be a good, solid number of teams for the league to expand to and REMAIN AT, because it allows for division and playoff systems that work extremely well.

Getting back to the point at hand;

Tor/Buf includes one of the league's "given" reliable draws in the Maple Leafs, who will sell out no matter what they put on the ice. Buffalo generally has a little bit more trouble with attendance but manages respectable numbers. Adding another team to the area would likely result in serious troubles for Buffalo.

Of the 'move' teams I mentioned, from most viable to least viable situation I consider the order to be as such based on factors such as ownership/management, fan interest, and long term stability.

1) NY Islanders
2) Atlanta
3) Phoenix
4) Nashville
5) Anaheim
6) Florida

So we have to consider what the best markets to add teams in are for team viability. Markets I have thought in the past would work well are Portland, Houston, Salt Lake City. Other markets that have been mentioned include Kansas City, London. I would rank those five, according to viability:

1) Portland
2) Houston
3) Salt Lake City
4) London
5) Kansas City

The only remaining matter, of course, is how to solve the matter of adding two teams and moving up to six. There are, of course, a few ways to do this. One would be straight expansion into two markets, and three standard moves. This is probably the simplest.

But the method I favor would function as follows:
The teams on the list are given an opt-in, starting with the least viable team and working towards the most viable team. Once we get to three teams opting-in, the opting-in is closed.

Expansion draft, phase one:
"Opt-in teams" submit a list of 15 skaters and one goaltender who are 'protected' while "Expansion" teams pick six players with no more than one goaltender each in a snaking draft format from the remaining pool of players off of those teams. Players who are waiver-exempt are not eligible to be selected and need not be protected. No team may lose more than two players, and no team may lose a goaltender and a defenseman. All teams must expose at least one forward, defenseman, and goaltender.

Expansion draft, phase two:
All remaining teams submit similar protected lists (15 skaters, one goaltender) and "Expansion" teams pick from the exposed players until they each have 15 skaters and one goaltender. Players who are waiver-exempt are not eligible to be selected and need not be protected. No team may lose more than two players, and no team may lose a goaltender and a defenseman. All teams must expose at least one forward, defenseman, and goaltender.

Expansion draft, phase three.
All "Expansion" and "Opt-in" teams pick eight players from the available players. No team may lose more than two players, and no team may lose a goaltender and a defenseman. All teams must expose at least one forward, defenseman, and goaltender.

NOTE: I included London over Hamilton because Hamilton is halfway between Toronto and Buffalo, and the discussion was about a possible expansion team in the Toronto area. London>>>Hamilton for that purpose. Realistically, neither should have one as the area already supports two teams and New York/New Jersey shows what happens when you try and shoehorn a third into an area like that.

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#53 HadThomasVokounOnFortSt

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 11:41 AM

I brought this up with my dad last night and he said that Toronto will get a second team because now don't quote me but I think he said that there the richest team in the NHL or something like that.

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#54 selkie

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 12:41 PM

The territory rights fee would make it really hard for the numbers to work in Toronto. At one time I can remember there being talk of Davidson moving the 'Ning to the Palace back when it looked like the NHL in Tampa was never going to be a success. But the fee that they would have had to pay to the Red Wings made it cost-prohibitive to do so, and that was a situation where someone else had already sunk the costs for a modern professional sports stadium.

Territory rights + new arena + ten years of playing second banana in town ala the LA Clippers, and you need someone with deep enough pockets to probably lose $200 million in addition to the $150 million or so it would cost the team to start up.

Hamilton, IIRC, can put a arena in just outside of Toronto's territory rights area and also would not have to deal with the Clipper effect in building a fan base.

#55 MacK_Attack

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 12:46 PM

QUOTE (eva unit zero @ October 23, 2008 - 11:59AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
NOTE: I included London over Hamilton because Hamilton is halfway between Toronto and Buffalo, and the discussion was about a possible expansion team in the Toronto area. London>>>Hamilton for that purpose. Realistically, neither should have one as the area already supports two teams and New York/New Jersey shows what happens when you try and shoehorn a third into an area like that.

London's too far away from Toronto to make it work there.

QUOTE (selkie @ October 23, 2008 - 01:41PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hamilton, IIRC, can put a arena in just outside of Toronto's territory rights area and also would not have to deal with the Clipper effect in building a fan base.

Yeah, up on Hamilton Mountain, near the airport, likely.

Although Balsillie was just going to renovate Copps Coliseum because he was prepared to go to court to argue that the NHL's "territorial rights" clause is illegal.

Edited by MacK_Attack, 23 October 2008 - 12:49 PM.


#56 eva unit zero

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 01:33 PM

QUOTE (MacK_Attack @ October 23, 2008 - 01:46PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
London's too far away from Toronto to make it work there.


The 10 largest metro areas in Canada are listed below. In bold are areas that already have one or more teams within 50 miles driving distance of the city center.

1) Toronto
2) Montreal
3) Vancouver
4) Ottawa
5) Calgary
6) Edmonton
7) Quebec City
8) Winnipeg
9) Hamilton
10) London

As you can see, London is the third most populous metro area that does not currently have a local NHL team. The other two have both lost theirs within the past fifteen years due. Winnipeg had low fan turnout and no corporate support, so I would not support attempting to return there. Quebec had strong fan support but poor corporate support due to the Montreal Canadiens culture, so a return might be difficult. This makes London the top choice for adding a team to Canada unless we are choosing to oversaturate a market. It is in an area that should provide strong attendance, and the corporate support should not be an issue. I would, however, not have included London or Hamilton had the topic not been about expansion into the Toronto area.

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#57 OsGOD

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 02:37 PM

are they really that desperate to make the leafs look good that they would bring in an expansion team which more than likely will suck worse than them?



Just one chance is all i ever wanted...just one time i'd like to win the game...from now on i'll take the chance if i can have it...just one just one

#58 F.Michael

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 02:57 PM

QUOTE (2probert4 @ October 22, 2008 - 03:17PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
MLSE would get to rent the ACC to the new team....theres your payout you spoke of....

Actually I was thinking a team would be better off relocating to Hamilton, Ont.

There's an arena there (Balsillie would pay for the renovations if he's to bring a team to Hamilton), & as another poster already mentioned - the interest was evident when Balsillie went ahead, & took down-payments for season tickets.

I'm pretty certain that the MLSE would demand a massive payout (something like $50 million) for infringement.


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#59 HadThomasVokounOnFortSt

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 07:45 PM

Yeah, not sure much about Canada but what about a team in Winnipeg?

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#60 AZWingsfan2008

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 08:02 PM

QUOTE (Andrew @ October 21, 2008 - 10:50AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Two words come to mind - LA Clippers!!! As bad as the Leafs are, they are royalty in Toronto. Who is going to come watch the "B" team play?





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