Filpula and Cleary's point totals

[LidstromIsASuperhero 29]

I was looking over the stats of guys on our team last night and noticed that filpula and cleary are wayyy down there. For the contracts they have, they ought to be doing better. Now, take into account that all of the players above them in points this season are regulars on our powerplay units.

Fact of the matter is, I think Filpula and Cleary would be putting up similar numbers to, for instance, samuellson and hudler, if they had the regular power play time that the rest of our top 6 plus hudler has been getting.

[Guest Crymson]

I was looking over the stats of guys on our team last night and noticed that filpula and cleary are wayyy down there. For the contracts they have, they ought to be doing better. Now, take into account that all of the players above them in points this season are regulars on our powerplay units.

Fact of the matter is, I think Filpula and Cleary would be putting up similar numbers to, for instance, samuellson and hudler, if they had the regular power play time that the rest of our top 6 plus hudler has been getting.

Cleary's point numbers may be as a result of missing many games and only being able to see out of one eye.

[Guest lnvincible]

Cleary's point numbers may be as a result of missing many games and only being able to see out of one eye.

Clearly i believe has an excuse , as for filppula.

He needs to step up.

[b.shanafan14 733]

Filppula and Cleary both have the potential to put up points, but the Wings are just so damn good its hard to crack the top 6, and if you don't you get 2/3 of whatever is left after the equivalent of two #1 lines worth of ice time is used up.

Edited December 4, 2008 by b.shanafan14

[Guest Crymson]

Filppula and Cleary both have the potential to put up points, but the Wings are just so damn good its hard to crack the top 6, and if you don't you get 2/3 of whatever is left after the equivalent of two #1 lines worth of ice time is used up.

Cleary and Filppula will begin producing, I'm sure.

[yzerman&thewings=CUP 0]

Filppula and Cleary both have the potential to put up points, but the Wings are just so damn good its hard to crack the top 6, and if you don't you get 2/3 of whatever is left after the equivalent of two #1 lines worth of ice time is used up.

I believe Flip's point totals would be better if Hossa wasn't here, so as long as we're winning I'm not going to complain too much. We all know he has the talent, so if someone in the top 6 goes down, we know they're there to step up. But then again, Huds is having a great season, so Flip should step it up soon.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I was looking over the stats of guys on our team last night and noticed that filpula and cleary are wayyy down there. For the contracts they have, they ought to be doing better. Now, take into account that all of the players above them in points this season are regulars on our powerplay units.

Fact of the matter is, I think Filpula and Cleary would be putting up similar numbers to, for instance, samuellson and hudler, if they had the regular power play time that the rest of our top 6 plus hudler has been getting.

Hudler has 5 even strength goals. Considering he gets about the 9th most even strength time and has the third most ES goals, its not just all about the PP. Unlike Filppula, Hudler knows what to do with the puck when he gets within 20 feet of the net. Filppula always seems to make the wrong decision in scoring position.

As for Cleary - he gets a free pass. No being able to see is going to affect your passing, shooting, and positioning.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I was looking over the stats of guys on our team last night and noticed that filpula and cleary are wayyy down there. For the contracts they have, they ought to be doing better. Now, take into account that all of the players above them in points this season are regulars on our powerplay units.

Fact of the matter is, I think Filpula and Cleary would be putting up similar numbers to, for instance, samuellson and hudler, if they had the regular power play time that the rest of our top 6 plus hudler has been getting.

Cleary has missed a few games as noted, so regarding this he should be given some leeway.

Catch 22 here, yes it is a bit disturbing to see their offensive numbers down when Cleary is a very capable offensive playmaker to a decent degree and Flipper surprised with nearly 20 goals last season, but also keep in they sometimes play more defensive roles. Flipper hasn't been getting power play time like you stated, and once Holmstrom gets back, Cleary might not be on the power play much either.

That all being said, I am glad both of them are Wings.

[eva unit zero 271]

I was looking over the stats of guys on our team last night and noticed that filpula and cleary are wayyy down there. For the contracts they have, they ought to be doing better. Now, take into account that all of the players above them in points this season are regulars on our powerplay units.

Fact of the matter is, I think Filpula and Cleary would be putting up similar numbers to, for instance, samuellson and hudler, if they had the regular power play time that the rest of our top 6 plus hudler has been getting.

Let's compare the four players you brought up, goals, assists, and ES/PP/PK time.

OVERALL:

Samuelsson: 24GP, 5g-16a-21pt, 376:18 TOI

Hudler: 24GP, 9g-11a-20pt, 310:35 TOI

Filppula: 24GP, 2g-6a-8pt, 382:14 TOI

Cleary: 16GP, 2g-6a-8pt, 256:10 TOI

EVEN STRENGTH

Samuelsson: 3g-6a-9pt, 315:39 TOI

Hudler: 5g-3a-8pt, 249:01 TOI

Filppula: 2g-6a-8pt, 328:53 TOI

Cleary: 2g-5a-7pt, 196:06 TOI

Average ESTOI: 272:54

POWER PLAY:

Samuelsson: 2g-10a-12pt, 59:55 TOI

Hudler: 4g-8a-12pt, 61:33 TOI

Filppula: 0g-0a-0pt, 7:07 TOI

Cleary: 0g-1a-1pt, 24:47 TOI

Average PPTOI: 38:37

PENALTY KILL:

Samuelsson: 0g-0a-0pt, 0:44 TOI

Hudler: 0g-0a-0pt, 0:01 TOI

Filppula: 0g-0a-0pt, 46:14 TOI

Cleary: 0g-0a-0pt, 35:17 TOI

Average PKTOI: 20:34

I don't even need to point out with any significant math that Filppula is playing considerably more than Hudler, yet Hudler is scoring more. So let's take half of the difference between Hudler and Filppula's ice time on the PP and trade that from Hudler to Filppula for ES time. Hudler loses 30 minutes playing with Zetterberg in favor of 30 minutes playing with guys like Draper and Maltby, which based on simple match would result in a loss of 5 points. Filppula loses 30 minutes playing with Datsyuk and Zetterberg to play in Hudler's spot with Zetterberg. Filppula has yet to score a point on the PP, so we'll use his overall rate and say he would score one point, which means that his point total would remain unchanged.

Cleary and Filppula have been far less effective with the man advantage than Hudler and Samuelsson because they are different styles of players; Hudler is the most offensively capable of the four, and Samuelsson currently plays a different role on the PP than the other three (a role Hudler is also capable of playing) while Flip and Cleary are more defensively capable players and so see more time on shutdown lines and on the PK. Being concerned about Flip's scoring right now is silly; however with the contract he has he needs to prove he is going to be able to be a two-way contributor or he will be trade bait. Cleary is a good, skilled versatile winger whose fate may ultimately rest with the outcome of the Zetterberg/Hudler/Hossa/Franzen series of negotiations in the next few weeks as he makes too much to be just a checking line winger, but he's cheap, good, and versatile as a top-sixer. And he has a good attitude where he'll play whatever role he's needed in.

[eva unit zero 271]

I believe Flip's point totals would be better if Hossa wasn't here, so as long as we're winning I'm not going to complain too much. We all know he has the talent, so if someone in the top 6 goes down, we know they're there to step up. But then again, Huds is having a great season, so Flip should step it up soon.

Hossa might be a valid excuse; except that Flip plays more than Hossa does.

[thedatsyukian 7]

Filp is just off to a slow start, I think with a little bit of time he'll go back to the hype train.

[Z and D for the C 712]

I don't even need to point out with any significant math that Filppula is playing considerably more than Hudler, yet Hudler is scoring more. So let's take half of the difference between Hudler and Filppula's ice time on the PP and trade that from Hudler to Filppula for ES time. Hudler loses 30 minutes playing with Zetterberg in favor of 30 minutes playing with guys like Draper and Maltby, which based on simple match would result in a loss of 5 points. Filppula loses 30 minutes playing with Datsyuk and Zetterberg to play in Hudler's spot with Zetterberg. Filppula has yet to score a point on the PP, so we'll use his overall rate and say he would score one point, which means that his point total would remain unchanged.

What on earth are you talking about?

[VM1138 1,921]

Flip has potential, but I'm beginning to think it will never be realized. Let's face it, he's had some hot streaks, but overall he is not a consistent or reliable threat. He can do some pretty neat things but he seems to have trouble finishing. And like people pointed out, he's not suffering from lack of ice time.

Flip is probably the most talented player we have that I would let walk if I had to. He's just not where we all thought he'd be two years ago.

[Guest Crymson]

Flip has potential, but I'm beginning to think it will never be realized. Let's face it, he's had some hot streaks, but overall he is not a consistent or reliable threat. He can do some pretty neat things but he seems to have trouble finishing. And like people pointed out, he's not suffering from lack of ice time.

Flip is probably the most talented player we have that I would let walk if I had to. He's just not where we all thought he'd be two years ago.

Jumping the gun a bit, aren't we? The five-year deal was done in order that he be given time to develop with the team. Some players take longer to develop than do, say, Malkin et al.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Crymson

[eva unit zero 271]

What on earth are you talking about?

Filppula plays a ton at even strength with the same guys he would be playing with on the PP. He doesn't really produce offensively at even strength as much as the guys who are currently being used on the power play; he certainly hasn't produced enough to justify removing one of them for him. Holmstrom/Datsyuk/Hossa on the first unit and Franzen/Zetterberg/Hudler on the second unit. Who exactly is Filppula going to produce more offense than on the power play?

Maybe put Flip on the second unit wing, and move Hudler to the point; but that takes away the left hand/right hand shot setup that Babcock likes to use and that put Samuelsson on the point in the first place.

[The Secret 304]

A good player will find ways to play well despite their current role, ice time etc. Although I have not been much of a Hudler fan he is quickly winning me over and I am starting to see his worth, perhaps he needs a second crack at the second line?! Filpula on the other hand show very brief flashes of what he may be capable of but IMO he is not at all a $3 Million player right now and is not making a good case for himself currently. I'd would debate on trading him this or next season as we have some good looking players in GR ready to get in.

[Mors 201]

Jumping the gun a bit, aren't we? The five-year deal was done in order that he be given time to develop with the team. Some players take longer to develop than do, say, Malkin et al.

At $3 million per season he better step up his development, that's a little pricey for 8 points and -2 in 24 games.

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

They are both expendable if we're trying to re-sign Hossa/Franzen in my book. Granted it would be a downgrade, we have players that can play that role in the minors (or sign someone for cheaper than ~3 mil).

Edited December 4, 2008 by DatsyukownzU13

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I'm beginning to think that the only reason why Holland paid Flip that $3 million a year, is in anticipation of losing Hossa, Franzen, or both in next year's free agency. Thus, starting next year Flip will be more of a regular on the PP.

If that isn't the reason, then this was a bad signing, because there's no reason to pay $3 million to a guy that you expect to be a 3rd liner for several seasons, and who isn't even a regular on the PP.

At this point Flip looks somewhat valuable in the long run, but very expendable short-term.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Both Cleary and Filppula have struggled offensively to this point. I am not going to write off Filppula as overpaid yet, but he has been the most disappointing player so far this season on the Red Wings. Hudler is badly outplaying Filppula in about half of the ice time.

I am not going to judge Cleary too much because of the eye injury. It wouldn't be fair to say Cleary has underachieved with an injury that clearly (no pun intended) affected his ability to play the game. Even with the eye trouble, Cleary was terrific in penalty kill situations and he made a great play to set up Hossa's goal the other night. The Red Wings are going to need Dan Cleary when April rolls around.

[FinRedWing 172]

Both Cleary and Filppula have struggled offensively to this point. I am not going to write off Filppula as overpaid yet, but he has been the most disappointing player so far this season on the Red Wings. Hudler is badly outplaying Filppula in about half of the ice time.

Half of the ice time?

We get it,you don't like Val.

Yeah,sure he's got more minutes than Hudler,but like I've said we've not actually banged 'em in 5 on 5. Like eva showed,Filppula's minutes come from PK and 5 on 5.

Another thing eva proved was this:

EVEN STRENGTH

Hudler: 5g-3a-8pt, 249:01 TOI

Filppula: 2g-6a-8pt, 328:53 TOI

Hudler's blowing him away partly because of a HOT PP.

Edited December 4, 2008 by FinRedWing

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Half of the ice time?

We get it,you don't like Val.

Yeah,sure he's got more minutes than Hudler,but like I've said we've not actually banged 'em in 5 on 5. Like eva showed,Filppula's minutes come from PK and 5 on 5.

Another thing eva proved was this:

EVEN STRENGTH

Hudler: 5g-3a-8pt, 249:01 TOI

Filppula: 2g-6a-8pt, 328:53 TOI

Hudler's blowing him away,but only on PP.

That's a quick assumption you made. I like Filppula - sorry if calling him a disappointment isn't acceptable. It's pretty evident that you are a big fan of Filppula and there's nothing wrong with that. However, I am not sure you would ever say anything remotely negative about Filppula, even when it's justified.

I called Filppula the most disappointing player on the team so far this season. I am pretty sure that's a fair statement. With a new contract, I expected more than eight points and minus two in 24 games from Filppula. The fact is the Red Wings have plenty of forwards that can kill penalties and play solid defense. Filppula isn't giving the Red Wings anything right now that they don't already have. That could change and I even stated in my previous post that I wasn't giving up on Filppula because of the slow start.

I will have to remember that making a constructive criticism of a player is now considered as not liking the player.

[FinRedWing 172]

That's a quick assumption you made. I like Filppula - sorry if calling him a disappointment isn't acceptable. It's pretty evident that you are a big fan of Filppula and there's nothing wrong with that. However, I am not sure you would ever say anything remotely negative about Filppula, even when it's justified.

I called Filppula the most disappointing player on the team so far this season. I am pretty sure that's a fair statement. With a new contract, I expected more than eight points and minus two in 24 games from Filppula. The fact is the Red Wings have plenty of forwards that can kill penalties and play solid defense. Filppula isn't giving the Red Wings anything right now that they don't already have. That could change and I even stated in my previous post that I wasn't giving up on Filppula because of the slow start.

I will have to remember that making a constructive criticism of a player is now considered as not liking the player.

Look who's the one making quick assumptions. Sure I'm happy for the one Finn we've got.

But I can and will say negative things about anyone,as long as it's justified.

I'd really like to know who is giving us a lot of offense aside from our two PP lines?

Half of our team must not be having great seasons then.

But yeah,it's all about the 3 million,I know.

Did you really expect more than 30-35 points from Filppula playing in the 3rd line with no PP time? Well,that's not reasonable if you did.

Btw,did you just ignore those even strength stats?

And I will have to remember that bashing a player in every chance you get is just constructive criticism.

I bet saying things like 310 is half of 380 is just constructive criticism too. (half of the ice time,remember?)

Edited December 4, 2008 by FinRedWing

[egroen 384]

We are legitimately looking at losing our #1, #4, #5 and #6 top point getters right now who also happen to be 4 of our top 7 goal scorers. I don't give a rat's ass about Filppula's potential and defensive play if keeping him means we can't keep at least two out of those 4 (Hossa, Franzen, Samuelsson, Hudler).

[norrisnick 1]

Look who's the one making quick assumptions. Sure I'm happy for the one Finn we've got.

But I can and will say negative things about anyone,as long as it's justified.

I'd really like to know who is giving us a lot of offense aside from our two PP lines?

Half of our team must not be having great seasons then.

But yeah,it's all about the 3 million,I know.

Did you really expect more than 30-35 points from Filppula playing in the 3rd line with no PP time? Well,that's not reasonable if you did.

Btw,did you just ignore those even strength stats?

And I will have to remember that bashing a player in every chance you get is just constructive criticism.

I bet saying things like 310 is half of 380 is just constructive criticism. (half of the ice time,remember?)

I'm guessing that the guy that gave him $3M/yr did. And I'm guessing that he hoped Fil would assert himself enough offensively to force Babcock's hand to give him some PP time. If he would do anything remotely dangerous offensively you bet your ass that Babcock would split PP time between Fil and Hudler. As it stands one is tied for the team lead in PP points and the other is tied with the one-eyed man in offense. The one-eyed man that has played 8 fewer games.