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Wings got the talent, but what about the coaching?


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#1 FourtyThirteen

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 02:52 AM

We've all seen the Wings this year and how they've still got great depth and a roster that is by far one of the best in the league. The one thing that's bothering me is the coaching. It seems every game we're just holding on by a one goal lead and when ever we lose it's by two or three goals. I'm really starting to think that Todd McLellan was a huge part of making the 2007-2008 Stanley Cup Champions, Detroit's defense last year was unbelievable. But that's the past...

Lately Mike Babcock has been changing up the lines quite a bit this season. All the lines are mix-matched and there's no consistency through out the game (the Dallas Stars game is one example that was embarrassing). Mike Babcock thinks he has to swap the lines up because Marian Hossa is here, that's not the case. Zetterberg and Datsyuk were incredible last year due to their playing experience together and chemistry they had. Sure, new lines mates can build new chemistry, but that's going to take a while. I think the lines should have stayed the same and add Hossa with Franzen and Flippula. You saw how Flippula was setting up Franzen last year with his straight on passes, so why not add Hossa into the bunch? Not Zetterberg, Franzen, and Holmstrom. Why have two big guys? Hossa's big but he's not the type who stands in front of the net.

Sorry about the ranting, but I think a few things need to be cleaned up to give the Wings a kick start.

What's Daniel Cleary doing up with Hank and Pav? Even Hossa? I'd throw him with Hudler and Samuelsson. Cleary's not the type of player that can keep with the pace or even playing style with Z, Pav, or Hossa. He does decent when he's playing with teammates that play his style.

Lines that I want- (forwards wise)

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Hossa-Flippula-Franzen
Cleary-Hudler-Samuelsson
Maltby-Draper-Kopecky

Defensive paring

Kronwall-Rafalski
Lidstrom-Staurt
Lelja-Lebda
Chelios-Meech

What do you think? Seriously though something needs to be done about their defense...BRAD MCCRIMMION YOU SUCK! rolleyes.gif

#2 rwfan007

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 03:47 AM



nuff said...

he knows how to win, he has some new pieces this year both on the ice and behind the bench and is still trying to find the right combo. We are still winning games, so stop complaining. The guys will figure things out. Its not how, it is how many.

Edited by rwfan007, 13 December 2008 - 03:51 AM.

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#3 IceMunkee

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 04:05 AM

I understand your frustration, I do. The wings have been slightly frustrating. Here is my complaint with your post. You propose Babs is the issue. You propose he swapping lines to much. He did not start doing that until two games ago. When things get stale it is pretty common to swap lines up. As far as ZDH versus Dats and Hossa, have you seen the numbers? Our top two lines are rolling.... HARD. I think your grasping at straws with this. The reason the sharks are doing so well is Todd has taken everything he learned from Babs and applying it to the Sharks. Lets not think for 1 minute that Todd is the reason for our success. Our issues are on the defensive end. At this time we do not have a goalie that is coming up with the game winning saves/ Our defense is out of whack as well. We need to tighten up the net and the blueline. I believe the Wings are ranked pretty high in goals this year. I think right now we need 3 goals per game to win... Thats not Red Wings hockey. This is not a Coaching problem. Babs is one of the best in the league.
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#4 puckloo39

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 09:31 AM

I also understand your frustration, OP. I don't lay the lapses at Babs' feet, however, even though I tend to agree with you about Cleary. Love him, just the same.

We have the same team as last season, minus Dom and Drake. Dom (according to some here) didn't contribute that much aside from half the wins in the season, and Drake chipped in some goals in the playoffs, but not much else during the season. No knock, just true. We are dealing with the season here, not the playoffs, before the slappies start yapping about the playoffs. We have to get to the finals to worry about that.

Adding Hossa shouldn't have upset any chemistry. By all rights, his arrival just added more firepower to an already embarrassing array of richness in Detroit. While Babs is no Scotty Bowman - who managed the 2002 HHOF on Ice with skill and savvy - Babs is no novice. If anything, the players need to look in the mirror and decide whose "problem" it is that they've only managed to accumulate a 19-5-4 record. /sarcasm dry.gif

There have been key injuries (Lidstrom, Cheli, Homer) and shaky goaltending. There is plenty of responsibility on the parts of everyone in the room. Intangibles sometimes win championships and that spark seems to be missing so far this season, IMO. I'd stop short of calling it a Cup hangover. That happens to first time winners and novices, not this locker room.

Here is what bothers me: the reason the W record is as good as it is has to do with the fact that the offense - Hossa, notably, early on - has managed to pot one more goal than the goalies have let in. I am not convinced that we can continue winning all season in that fashion.

They will sort it out, I believe, but some soul searching may be in order. One of my fan-friends from another team mentioned that he thought the Wings in general and some in particular might be believing their own press from last season. I can't disagree with that.



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#5 ManLuv4Clears

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 09:32 AM

Scotty Bowman was notorious for constant line changing....

#6 puckloo39

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 09:35 AM

QUOTE (ManLuv4Clears @ December 13, 2008 - 08:32AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Scotty Bowman was notorious for constant line changing....


right you are. laugh.gif

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#7 lets go pavel

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 09:40 AM

Maybe my memory is hazy, but I remember a lot more line changing last season. It seemed like every game we weren't playing well last year ... not even necessarily losing, but just not playing with jump ... Babs was juggling someone around. This season it seems like we've seen very little until the last few games.

My only complaint with the coaching, and for purely personal reasons, is that DZH didn't stay together for the whole game last night. I was pretty excited when I saw them out there for the opening faceoff, I'd have liked to see what those lines could do over an entire game ...
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#8 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 09:47 AM

QUOTE (FourtyThirteen @ December 13, 2008 - 01:52AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We've all seen the Wings this year and how they've still got great depth and a roster that is by far one of the best in the league. The one thing that's bothering me is the coaching. It seems every game we're just holding on by a one goal lead and when ever we lose it's by two or three goals. I'm really starting to think that Todd McLellan was a huge part of making the 2007-2008 Stanley Cup Champions, Detroit's defense last year was unbelievable. But that's the past...

Lately Mike Babcock has been changing up the lines quite a bit this season. All the lines are mix-matched and there's no consistency through out the game (the Dallas Stars game is one example that was embarrassing). Mike Babcock thinks he has to swap the lines up because Marian Hossa is here, that's not the case. Zetterberg and Datsyuk were incredible last year due to their playing experience together and chemistry they had. Sure, new lines mates can build new chemistry, but that's going to take a while. I think the lines should have stayed the same and add Hossa with Franzen and Flippula. You saw how Flippula was setting up Franzen last year with his straight on passes, so why not add Hossa into the bunch? Not Zetterberg, Franzen, and Holmstrom. Why have two big guys? Hossa's big but he's not the type who stands in front of the net.

Sorry about the ranting, but I think a few things need to be cleaned up to give the Wings a kick start.

What's Daniel Cleary doing up with Hank and Pav? Even Hossa? I'd throw him with Hudler and Samuelsson. Cleary's not the type of player that can keep with the pace or even playing style with Z, Pav, or Hossa. He does decent when he's playing with teammates that play his style.

Lines that I want- (forwards wise)

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Hossa-Flippula-Franzen
Cleary-Hudler-Samuelsson
Maltby-Draper-Kopecky

Defensive paring

Kronwall-Rafalski
Lidstrom-Staurt
Lelja-Lebda
Chelios-Meech

What do you think? Seriously though something needs to be done about their defense...BRAD MCCRIMMION YOU SUCK! rolleyes.gif

Lines are going to be changing, no matter what team you are.

To win the Stanley Cup, you need good coaching.

The Wings recently won a Stanley Cup.

They have good coaching.

#9 thedisappearer

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 10:13 AM

So, we're dogpiling on the goalie sammy Hudler the defense the refs league bias against us coaching now? Ok.

Babcock is lazy and he sucks!

Edited by thedisappearer, 13 December 2008 - 10:13 AM.

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#10 Red Crazy

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 10:33 AM

Mike Babcock is a great coach. This lazy play is not his doing.

Why are people dumping on Cleary??? He is one of a few players that has any jump in the last few games.

#11 j.hoop

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 11:07 AM

QUOTE (FourtyThirteen @ December 13, 2008 - 02:52AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We've all seen the Wings this year and how they've still got great depth and a roster that is by far one of the best in the league. The one thing that's bothering me is the coaching. It seems every game we're just holding on by a one goal lead and when ever we lose it's by two or three goals. I'm really starting to think that Todd McLellan was a huge part of making the 2007-2008 Stanley Cup Champions, Detroit's defense last year was unbelievable. But that's the past...

Lately Mike Babcock has been changing up the lines quite a bit this season. All the lines are mix-matched and there's no consistency through out the game (the Dallas Stars game is one example that was embarrassing). Mike Babcock thinks he has to swap the lines up because Marian Hossa is here, that's not the case. Zetterberg and Datsyuk were incredible last year due to their playing experience together and chemistry they had. Sure, new lines mates can build new chemistry, but that's going to take a while. I think the lines should have stayed the same and add Hossa with Franzen and Flippula. You saw how Flippula was setting up Franzen last year with his straight on passes, so why not add Hossa into the bunch? Not Zetterberg, Franzen, and Holmstrom. Why have two big guys? Hossa's big but he's not the type who stands in front of the net.

Sorry about the ranting, but I think a few things need to be cleaned up to give the Wings a kick start.

What's Daniel Cleary doing up with Hank and Pav? Even Hossa? I'd throw him with Hudler and Samuelsson. Cleary's not the type of player that can keep with the pace or even playing style with Z, Pav, or Hossa. He does decent when he's playing with teammates that play his style.

Lines that I want- (forwards wise)

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Hossa-Flippula-Franzen
Cleary-Hudler-Samuelsson
Maltby-Draper-Kopecky

Defensive paring

Kronwall-Rafalski
Lidstrom-Staurt

Lelja-Lebda
Chelios-Meech

What do you think? Seriously though something needs to be done about their defense...BRAD MCCRIMMION YOU SUCK! rolleyes.gif



sorry man, after i saw that, this post loses all validity. you wanna see what happens with those two getting more ice time than lids?!?
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#12 b.shanafan14

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 11:45 AM

The offense isn't the problem, the coaching isn't the problem. Its our previously great defensive team giving up too many uncharacteristic turnovers. The defense has been playing a little better lately, now the goaltending has to come around, and it will. Is it frustrating so far? Hell yes. But I'm almost certain things will be fine by the all-star break.

#13 redwing_sparty

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 12:04 PM

you really shouldn't have even started this thread. didn't u know u were going to get slammed?
yeah, babs is not the problem. he won a cup last year if you didnt notice, and the offense is not even close to the problem. defense has been god awful lately.
as for line changes, they just started like a game or two ago, and sometimes things need to be changed up.
last night, i will grant you, the offense wasn;t there (lebda?), and the wings actaully played ok defensively. it is shameful to lose to dallas though.
anyways, babs has been pushing these guys anyway he can. He's trying to figure out how to get these guys playing like they were last season. he is NOT the problem.
(this is a rather disjointed post, i'm sorry. i have a hangover, so cut me some slack)

#14 GoWings1905

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 12:20 PM

QUOTE (FourtyThirteen @ December 13, 2008 - 02:52AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What's Daniel Cleary doing up with Hank and Pav? Even Hossa? I'd throw him with Hudler and Samuelsson. Cleary's not the type of player that can keep with the pace or even playing style with Z, Pav, or Hossa. He does decent when he's playing with teammates that play his style.


^ I stopped reading here. Cleary has been the Red Wings best forward since coming back from the eye injury. The great part about Cleary is he can be either a top six forward or a third line player. I don't understand why you think he can't keep up the pace with Z, Pavel, or Hossa. Cleary has two goals and eight points in the past five games playing on a line with the big guns.

I don't care if you want to make arguments about juggling lines, but at least try to have some validity when making a case about a player. Cleary is one of the few guys on the team busting his ass every shift and lately he has been rewarded for it.

Babcock is the best coach in the league too. Period.
 
 
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#15 wingslionstigers

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 12:44 PM

QUOTE
We have the same team as last season, minus Dom and Drake. Dom (according to some here) didn't contribute that much aside from half the wins in the season, and Drake chipped in some goals in the playoffs, but not much else during the season. No knock, just true. We are dealing with the season here, not the playoffs, before the slappies start yapping about the playoffs. We have to get to the finals to worry about that.


Um im gonna stop reading because you already proved you dont know much about nothing. Why do you think they brought Drake to the Red Wings? To score points?? LOL He was brought here for grit and leadership something were missing and need badly this year. Drake would be about the best thing that could happen to our team right now. Do you know nothing besides what shows up on the stat sheet?

QUOTE
^ I stopped reading here. Cleary has been the Red Wings best forward since coming back from the eye injury. The great part about Cleary is he can be either a top six forward or a third line player. I don't understand why you think he can't keep up the pace with Z, Pavel, or Hossa. Cleary has two goals and eight points in the past five games playing on a line with the big guns.

I don't care if you want to make arguments about juggling lines, but at least try to have some validity when making a case about a player. Cleary is one of the few guys on the team busting his ass every shift and lately he has been rewarded for it.

Babcock is the best coach in the league too. Period.


Cleary has played like s*** on the top lines. Are we watching the same guys? He looks like he has no idea how to flow with them players. He doesnt even play his game when hes on those lines. He plays much better when he is on the 3rd line and sticks to his game. You said he has like 5 assists, how couldnt you get points all you have to do is touch the puck here and there and you have a good chance of getting a few helpers when your on a line with Hossa and Dats. I haven't seen Cleary make any good passes that created goals all i have seen is him hand the puck off to his line mates.

#16 BeeRYCE

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 12:57 PM

I think we have enough talent up front to make it Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Hossa for some full games.


#17 Z and D for the C

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 01:04 PM

Did anyone notice how ZDH was together for the first period last game and they didn't do anything? People act like it'd be the second coming of jesus. Putting them together will not solve our problems, which some people seem to think.

Just cause you look like the gimp don't mean you play like the gimp!


#18 SDavis35

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 01:09 PM

QUOTE (IceMunkee @ December 13, 2008 - 04:05AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I understand your frustration, I do. The wings have been slightly frustrating. Here is my complaint with your post. You propose Babs is the issue. You propose he swapping lines to much. He did not start doing that until two games ago. When things get stale it is pretty common to swap lines up. As far as ZDH versus Dats and Hossa, have you seen the numbers? Our top two lines are rolling.... HARD. I think your grasping at straws with this. The reason the sharks are doing so well is Todd has taken everything he learned from Babs and applying it to the Sharks. Lets not think for 1 minute that Todd is the reason for our success. Our issues are on the defensive end. At this time we do not have a goalie that is coming up with the game winning saves/ Our defense is out of whack as well. We need to tighten up the net and the blueline. I believe the Wings are ranked pretty high in goals this year. I think right now we need 3 goals per game to win... Thats not Red Wings hockey. This is not a Coaching problem. Babs is one of the best in the league.


This.

QUOTE (thedisappearer @ December 13, 2008 - 10:13AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So, we're dogpiling on the goalie sammy Hudler the defense the refs league bias against us coaching now? Ok.

Babcock is lazy and he sucks!


Don't worry, we'll work our way up to Holland soon.


#19 GoWings1905

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 01:15 PM

QUOTE (wingslionstigers @ December 13, 2008 - 12:44PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cleary has played like s*** on the top lines. Are we watching the same guys? He looks like he has no idea how to flow with them players. He doesnt even play his game when hes on those lines. He plays much better when he is on the 3rd line and sticks to his game. You said he has like 5 assists, how couldnt you get points all you have to do is touch the puck here and there and you have a good chance of getting a few helpers when your on a line with Hossa and Dats. I haven't seen Cleary make any good passes that created goals all i have seen is him hand the puck off to his line mates.


I don't know what you are watching, but evidently not Cleary. You can discredit Cleary's points, but eight points in five games speaks for itself. Your reasoning is weak - there is more to getting points than having good linemates or randomly touching the puck to get an assist like you claim. Cleary has had great jump playing as a top six forward. If Cleary wasn't playing well, why wouldn't Babock just move him back to the third line with Hudler and Filppula then?

Your statement that you never see Cleary make passes that create goals is laughable. Off the top of my head, perhaps you missed the Anaheim game. Cleary's hustle and pass led directly to Hossa's game-winning goal that night. If that's not enough for you, Cleary also made a great effort to knock the puck out of the air and set up Filppula's goal in the Chicago game last Saturday night. Cleary also made the pass to Hossa that resulted in the game being tied at four.

I don't know what other proof you need, but it would help to have some actual evidence before you make claims that Cleary is directly getting points because of his linemates. Many of the goals Cleary's linemates have scored in the past five games have been because of Cleary's hustle and playmaking ability. Maybe you can come up with some actual proof that Cleary has "played like s***" on the top lines instead of making baseless claims with no evidence to support your theories.
 
 
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#20 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 01:20 PM

I was with you until you took a shot at Cleary, again with this. 2 goals and 8 points in 5 games, and consistently the hardest working player on the ice, WITH the big guns also on the ice. What more does he need to do? Start playing like Ovechkin night in and night out for people to give him respect? He's versatile. He can kill penalties, and he does it well, he can score goals, 20 in back to back years, he can set up plays, maybe his 14 assists this season arent that good afterall right?

As for Babcock, yeah, I mean three straight 50 win seasons is nothing. And a Stanley Cup and a trip to the WCF, man anyone could do that.

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