Food for thought: Interesting Statistics that speak volumes

[seeinred 1,488]

and it is pretty clear that the instigator penalty will be banished in the near future (1-3 years).

Is it?

[uk_redwing 495]

Amazing, we have 6 guys on our 4th line?

4 of those 6 guys are 4th line guys yes.

[sureWhyNot 19]

OK, here are the numbers for guys with a handful of FM's this year, we'll refer to them as "2nd tier tough guys", or whatever. Also, ppl keep mentioning that there are Red Wings who people keep saying contribute in other ways, which is very true. Ppl also keep saying that guys like Lebda and Stuart are dmen so they won't have as many goals (as if it didn't go without saying), which is also true.

But I do want to point out that a ton of the guys who I have used in comparing their numbers to the Wings play for horrible teams - I mean who knows what they would be putting up on a winning squad. Also, I have included dmen in with forwards for both the Red Wings and the comparison players, so the whole "but Stuart and Lebda are dmen" argument is somewhat null and void.

Anyways, here is the list of "2nd tier tough guys"

------------------------------------------------------

A. Voros: 8 Goals; 6 Assists; -3; 6 FM

C. Fraser: 1 Goal; 6 Assists; -1; 5 FM

S. O'Brien: 0 Goals; 6 Assists; +1; 6 FM

C. McCormick: 1 Goal; 6 Assists; +2; 5 FM

S. Montador: 2 Goals; 6 Assists; +15; 5 FM

B. Eager: 5 Goals; 1 Assist; 0 (Even); 4 FM

M. Greene: 1 Goal; 5 Assists; +5; 4 FM

A. Mair: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; 0 (Even); 4 FM

M. Walker: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; +7; 4 FM

F. Bouillon: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; +4; 4 FM

N. Boynton: 4 Goals; 5 Assists; -2; 3 FM

T. Brouwer: 3 Goals; 7 Assists; +6; 3 FM

D. Byfuglien: 5 Goals; 5 Assists; +3; 3 FM

R. Carter: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; +9; 3 FM

B. Dubinsky: 5 Goals; 12 Assists; -2; 3 FM

S. Hartnell: 10 Goals; 9 Assists; -1; 3 FM

P. Mara: 2 Goals; 9 Assists; -2; 3 FM

B. Sutherby: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; +6; 3 FM (Been on IR Since Nov 21st)

D. Backes: 7 Goals; 7 Assists; -1; 3 FM

-----------------------------------------------------------

Now I could go third tier as well (guys with 1-2 FM this year) but then things would start getting quite extensive, and well -- the argument my side makes gets a lot stronger. However since there are so many guys with 1-2 FM this year I have opted against doing so.

Again, feel free to rationalize however you would like, keep conflating toughness/enforcer with goon, keep citing last years playoffs without acknoledging the fact we dressed two more then willing guys all year long, keep doing whatever makes you feel good.

Facts are facts, numbers are numbers -- and like it or not, they speak volumes.

[uk_redwing 495]

OK, here are the numbers for guys with a handful of FM's this year, we'll refer to them as "2nd tier tough guys", or whatever. Also, ppl keep mentioning that there are Red Wings who people keep saying contribute in other ways, which is very true. Ppl also keep saying that guys like Lebda and Stuart are dmen so they won't have as many goals (as if it didn't go without saying), which is also true.

But I do want to point out that a ton of the guys who I have used in comparing their numbers to the Wings play for horrible teams - I mean who knows what they would be putting up on a winning squad. Also, I have included dmen in with forwards for both the Red Wings and the comparison players, so the whole "but Stuart and Lebda are dmen" argument is somewhat null and void.

Anyways, here is the list of "2nd tier tough guys"

------------------------------------------------------

A. Voros: 8 Goals; 6 Assists; -3; 6 FM

C. Fraser: 1 Goal; 6 Assists; -1; 5 FM

S. O'Brien: 0 Goals; 6 Assists; +1; 6 FM

C. McCormick: 1 Goal; 6 Assists; +2; 5 FM

S. Montador: 2 Goals; 6 Assists; +15; 5 FM

B. Eager: 5 Goals; 1 Assist; 0 (Even); 4 FM

M. Greene: 1 Goal; 5 Assists; +5; 4 FM

A. Mair: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; 0 (Even); 4 FM

M. Walker: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; +7; 4 FM

F. Bouillon: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; +4; 4 FM

N. Boynton: 4 Goals; 5 Assists; -2; 3 FM

T. Brouwer: 3 Goals; 7 Assists; +6; 3 FM

D. Byfuglien: 5 Goals; 5 Assists; +3; 3 FM

R. Carter: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; +9; 3 FM

B. Dubinsky: 5 Goals; 12 Assists; -2; 3 FM

S. Hartnell: 10 Goals; 9 Assists; -1; 3 FM

P. Mara: 2 Goals; 9 Assists; -2; 3 FM

B. Sutherby: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; +6; 3 FM (Been on IR Since Nov 21st)

D. Backes: 7 Goals; 7 Assists; -1; 3 FM

-----------------------------------------------------------

Now I could go third tier as well (guys with 1-2 FM this year) but then things would start getting quite extensive, and well -- the argument my side makes gets a lot stronger. However since there are so many guys with 1-2 FM this year I have opted against doing so.

Again, feel free to rationalize however you would like, keep conflating toughness/enforcer with goon, keep citing last years playoffs without acknoledging the fact we dressed two more then willing guys all year long, keep doing whatever makes you feel good.

Facts are facts, numbers are numbers -- and like it or not, they speak volumes.

What a post. This is worthy of several medals.

I salute you sir!

[Wings_Fan_In_Exile 3]

I agree with you to a point, especially that our 4th line doesn't seem to be providing energy/grit OR scoring. However i am curious how many of the names you listed are actually 4th line players vs 3rd liners AND how much they command in salary, lenth of contract (as somebody else mentioned as well).

As far as Lucic vs Carcillo, I'd have to go with Lucic as well. BUT if Carcillo played in a hockey market I think he'd get a lot more respect than he currently does. Same goes for Doan to an extent. Carcillo is the man and can put up points.. but Lucic is moreso the man.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

I agree with you to a point, especially that our 4th line doesn't seem to be providing energy/grit OR scoring. However i am curious how many of the names you listed are actually 4th line players vs 3rd liners AND how much they command in salary, lenth of contract (as somebody else mentioned as well).

As far as Lucic vs Carcillo, I'd have to go with Lucic as well. BUT if Carcillo played in a hockey market I think he'd get a lot more respect than he currently does. Same goes for Doan to an extent. Carcillo is the man and can put up points.. but Lucic is moreso the man.

I might have to disagree when you say that Carcillo is able to put up points; he did pot 13 goals last season but is on pace for only 10 points this season. No disagreement however when you say that Carcillo is the man; I think I'd give my left arm to have a guy that brings his toughness and intensity onto the ice for the Wings.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Hockeytown0001

[Wings_Fan_In_Exile 3]

I might have to disagree when you say that Carcillo is able to put up points; he did pot 13 goals last season but is on pace for only 10 points this season. No disagreement however when you say that Carcillo is the man; I think I'd give my left arm to have a guy that brings his toughness and intensity onto the ice for the Wings.

I've been disappointed with his point total so far this season, last year he was one of the top goal scorers for Phoenix the last few weeks of the season (not saying a ton, but 24 points in 57 games was decent for a scrapper and his goal scoring was picking up). Maybe it was a fluke, I haven't seen much of his play this year.

But yeah, man I'd love to have him on our team. Hell i'd love any fourth liner that brought that kind of energy.

[Frozen-Man 144]

OK, here are the numbers for guys with a handful of FM's this year, we'll refer to them as "2nd tier tough guys", or whatever. Also, ppl keep mentioning that there are Red Wings who people keep saying contribute in other ways, which is very true. Ppl also keep saying that guys like Lebda and Stuart are dmen so they won't have as many goals (as if it didn't go without saying), which is also true.

But I do want to point out that a ton of the guys who I have used in comparing their numbers to the Wings play for horrible teams - I mean who knows what they would be putting up on a winning squad. Also, I have included dmen in with forwards for both the Red Wings and the comparison players, so the whole "but Stuart and Lebda are dmen" argument is somewhat null and void.

Anyways, here is the list of "2nd tier tough guys"

------------------------------------------------------

A. Voros: 8 Goals; 6 Assists; -3; 6 FM

C. Fraser: 1 Goal; 6 Assists; -1; 5 FM

S. O'Brien: 0 Goals; 6 Assists; +1; 6 FM

C. McCormick: 1 Goal; 6 Assists; +2; 5 FM

S. Montador: 2 Goals; 6 Assists; +15; 5 FM

B. Eager: 5 Goals; 1 Assist; 0 (Even); 4 FM

M. Greene: 1 Goal; 5 Assists; +5; 4 FM

A. Mair: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; 0 (Even); 4 FM

M. Walker: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; +7; 4 FM

F. Bouillon: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; +4; 4 FM

N. Boynton: 4 Goals; 5 Assists; -2; 3 FM

T. Brouwer: 3 Goals; 7 Assists; +6; 3 FM

D. Byfuglien: 5 Goals; 5 Assists; +3; 3 FM

R. Carter: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; +9; 3 FM

B. Dubinsky: 5 Goals; 12 Assists; -2; 3 FM

S. Hartnell: 10 Goals; 9 Assists; -1; 3 FM

P. Mara: 2 Goals; 9 Assists; -2; 3 FM

B. Sutherby: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; +6; 3 FM (Been on IR Since Nov 21st)

D. Backes: 7 Goals; 7 Assists; -1; 3 FM

-----------------------------------------------------------

Now I could go third tier as well (guys with 1-2 FM this year) but then things would start getting quite extensive, and well -- the argument my side makes gets a lot stronger. However since there are so many guys with 1-2 FM this year I have opted against doing so.

Again, feel free to rationalize however you would like, keep conflating toughness/enforcer with goon, keep citing last years playoffs without acknoledging the fact we dressed two more then willing guys all year long, keep doing whatever makes you feel good.

Facts are facts, numbers are numbers -- and like it or not, they speak volumes.

I think you make several assumptions that are not necessarily true. First you state "who knows what they would be putting up on a winning squad." That is correct but both ways - we have had several guys who did much better on bad teams (for example Kyle Quincey had 0 goals, 1 assist and was a -3 in 13 regular season games with the Wings but has 2 goals, 16 assists and is a +7 in 27 games with a pretty bad Kings team).

Don't get me wrong I don't think that enforcer = goon by any stretch I just don't think that your facts and numbers speak volumes because I don't think that there is enough info as I stated earlier. How many times do those guys put their teams shorthanded, how much TOI do they get a game, do they dress the player almost every game, can they block shots, win faceoffs, do they kill penalties, do they draw penalties, do they have sharp hockey minds that can help bring the younger guys along, etc.

[Guest Shoreline]

OK, I will keep this short and focused on pure statistics. There has been a ton of debate regarding team toughness, which unfortunately results in the same 'ole "do we need an enforcer" debate.

One thing that dawned on me as I would read through the various threads dealing with the topic is that those who believe we do not have a toughness issue constantly revert too the stance that those who question our toughness and/or feel we need to add some want to "goon it up", and "are stupid and want a team full of Boogard's", etc., etc.

I am somewhat puzzled at how the assertion that the Wings need to add some toughness to the lineup is the equivalent to calling for a team full of goons, or the desire to have a bunch of Boogard's instead of real hockey players.

Anyways, I am starting to go on way too long here so I will get to the point of the post. Below you will see a list of Wings, their point totals for the season and the number of games they have been in the lineup for. Then below that you will see a list of players who make up the league leaders in fighting majors (remember, they are the leaders, if was going to get into guys down the list 3-4 FM but there are too many) as well as their point totals on the year & ammount of games played.

These may surprise some of those who conflate "toughness" and "willingness to drop the mitts from time to time" with "goonery", and "enforcers=worthless hockey players."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kopecky: 1 Goal; 3 Assists (29 Games)

Stuart: 0 Goals; 2 Assists (28 Games)

Draper: 1 Goal; 2 Assists (29 Games)

Meech: 1 Goal; 2 Assists (15 Games)

Maltby: 2 Goals; 2 Assists (27 Games)

Lebda: 2 Goals; 3 Assists (26 Games)

______________________________________

B. Prust: 1 Goal; 1 Assists; 11 FM (21 Games)

D. Carcillo: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 8 FM (25 Games)

D. Clarkson: 5 Goals; 4 Assists; 8 FM (26 Games)

C. Janssen: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; 8 FM (23 Games)

J. Boll: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; 10 FM (21 Games)

B.J. Crombeen: 7 Goals; 6 Assists; 8 FM (16 Games)

I. Laperriere: 4 Goals; 8 Assists; 8 FM (29 Games)

G. Parros: 3 Goals; 5 Assists; 10 FM (27 Games)

Sh. Thornton: 1 Goal; 3 Assists; 8 FM (29 Games)

A. Asham: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 7 FM (28 Games)

E. Boulton: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 7 FM (25 Games)

D.Hordichuk: 3 Goals; 1 Assist; 7 FM (26 Games)

C. Neil: 2 Goals; 1 Assist; 7 FM (21 Games)

C. Orr: 1 Goal; 2 Assists; 7 FM (32 Games)

J. Shelley: 1 Goal; 2 Assists; 7 FM (27 Games)

K. Barch: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 6 FM (28 Games)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Take these numbers however you want, that's completely up too you. But I think it is very clear that there is a difference b/t worthless goon and guy who scraps from time to time in regards to their contribution to the teams success.

This is not arguing anything, the purpose is to illustrate that when people on the boards call for more toughness, or an "enforcer", the response kinda needs to be something different then claiming that those individuals "want a team full of goons" because it implies that "goons" are worthless, have no skill, and offer nothing else then meaningless fights. Well, if these so called "goons" (ya know the guys listed above with numbers comparable to the Wings listed above them) AKA the league leaders in FM's, then we have issues with a almost a quarter of our roster contributing the same "worthless" efforts as the said "goons".

Bah, this turned into a lot longer project then I wanted it too, and I apologize for those who are annoyed by it. Just figured I would throw it out there.

Even without these stats some of us know by watching the games that the Wings need an enforcer or two who can also contribute more than just PIMs. The Wings need to re-shape their attitude this season as it's one of apathy and timidness. Gearing up the physical nature of it puts the guys on their toes, and puts more energy into the team and fans. However, your stats only help in understanding people look retarded when they suggest the enforcers in this league are purely goons who can't contribute anything else. Wings simply need an enforcer. Great post. There's a time for skill, there's a time to use an enforcer. Not having both means your skill guys get to be your enforcers, i.e. get to deal with other team's enforcers and physical players.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Shoreline

[Seraph 240]

We are a tough team. We don't need to worry about too much added toughness. The only drawback of our toughness is that we have to consciously turn it on. Which is not entirely a bad thing. If we went out there, lacked skill, and required on physical play to get everything done, all our guys would be injured. I'm content with what we have now. The pain train can take care of the rest.

The playoff team of last year was very gritty and hard to play against. Malkin couldn't bring the puck into our zone because Kronner was an assassin. We physically wore out the Stars. Datsyuk and Zetterberg both were throwing very notable hits that I can still remember. Which is a good sign.

We don't have much cap room to do anything anyway. Our team is tough when it needs to be. Our team is smart and skilled. That is what Red Wing hockey is all about.

[uk_redwing 495]

We are a tough team.

You people do make me laugh sometimes

[Guest Crymson]

First off, three of the Wings players you've listed are defensemen whereas nearly all of the so-called comparable players you've listed are forwards. Further, Draper and Maltby bring things to the table that none of said so-called comparable players bring. What did Kopecky bring? Hossa.

You people do make me laugh sometimes

Aren't you the guy who was whining all of last season about how the team wasn't tough enough to win the Cup?

Edited December 16, 2008 by Crymson

[sureWhyNot 19]

First off, three of the Wings players you've listed are defensemen whereas nearly all of the so-called comparable players you've listed are forwards. Further, Draper and Maltby bring things to the table that none of said so-called comparable players bring. What did Kopecky bring? Hossa.

Aren't you the guy who was whining all of last season about how the team wasn't tough enough to win the Cup?

You really managed to show your true colors in terms of how little you know about hockey:

S. O'Brien, S. Montador (you know, the guy with the +15), M. Greene, M. Walker, F. Bouillon, N. Boynton & P. Mara are all dmen. I mean I assume this is the list you were talking about seeing as though the first list is made up not of my selection, rather the GUYS LEADING THE LEAGUE IN FM's, or as you like to refer too them; "goons."

Sorry, I wish I could dictate who fights and when but I can't. Nice try thought - in a cute, completely inconcequntial kinda way.

And no, I was not the one last year (when we had Downey and Drake) whining about not being tough enough to win the cup. You see I use a little thing called reason when I argue a point, and last year there wasn't an argument to be made that stated we weren't tought enough.

Again though, nice try.

[Guest Shoreline]

You really managed to show your true colors in terms of how little you know about hockey:

S. O'Brien, S. Montador (you know, the guy with the +15), M. Greene, M. Walker, F. Bouillon, N. Boynton & P. Mara are all dmen. I mean I assume this is the list you were talking about seeing as though the first list is made up not of my selection, rather the GUYS LEADING THE LEAGUE IN FM's, or as you like to refer too them; "goons."

Sorry, I wish I could dictate who fights and when but I can't. Nice try thought - in a cute, completely inconcequntial kinda way.

And no, I was not the one last year (when we had Downey and Drake) whining about not being tough enough to win the cup. You see I use a little thing called reason when I argue a point, and last year there wasn't an argument to be made that stated we weren't tought enough.

Again though, nice try.

Ouch.

[CrossoverThrash 0]

Whoa, whoa, whoa

First of all, Carcillo would not put up numbers close to Lucic, and if he did it would only be because he played on a line with Pavel and Hank as you suggest. Savard and Kessel aren't Datsyuk and Zetterberg either.

Also, I don't see where you get your logic that 6'0 205lb. Carcillo would be "the one roughing up" 6'4 220lb. Lucic? Don't begin to tell me Carcillo is tougher either because Lucic beats the s*** out of people.

My point? Lucic is a top line player and Carcillo is a third line agitator. Lucic all the way.

My logic is Carcillo very rarely loses to fight and beats the s*** out of people and had more knockouts he had the balls to take on Ivinanns he also got a hattrick last year, he has much more potential than lucic, i think lucic's talent level has been reached. There both good players but put carcillo in the right enviournment and he's guaranteed to thrive, he's a severe work in progress though.

[skacore 2]

My logic is Carcillo very rarely loses to fight and beats the s*** out of people and had more knockouts he had the balls to take on Ivinanns he also got a hattrick last year, he has much more potential than lucic, i think lucic's talent level has been reached. There both good players but put carcillo in the right enviournment and he's guaranteed to thrive, he's a severe work in progress though.

Carcillo loses much more often than Lucic does. He'd had probably 1 knockout in his entire career. Lucic also fought Ivanans last year, except that resulted in a draw whereas Carcillo was TKO'd by Ivanans. No way in hell does he have more potential than Lucic, he's what, 24? Lucic is 20 and already a first line player and becoming an elite power forward. Lucic also hits much, much harder than Carcillo. I like both players just being logical about it.

[skacore 2]

What did Kopecky bring? Hossa.

Oooohh!!! All this time I've been thinking that the Wings have been holding onto Kopecky because of his AMAZING size and because he's sooo young still. Now I get it, it's because of his friend making abilities!

[CrossoverThrash 0]

Carcillo loses much more often than Lucic does. He'd had probably 1 knockout in his entire career. Lucic also fought Ivanans last year, except that resulted in a draw whereas Carcillo was TKO'd by Ivanans. No way in hell does he have more potential than Lucic, he's what, 24? Lucic is 20 and already a first line player and becoming an elite power forward. Lucic also hits much, much harder than Carcillo. I like both players just being logical about it.

Carcillo has already had a game this year in which hes knocked down 2 guys, and last year he destoyed Barch. Lucic Loses more often than Carcillo.

[skacore 2]

Carcillo has already had a game this year in which hes knocked down 2 guys, and last year he destoyed Barch. Lucic Loses more often than Carcillo.

there's no way in hell Lucic loses more often than Carcillo lol he's lost maybe 2-3 fights so far in the NHL

[Guest Crymson]

You really managed to show your true colors in terms of how little you know about hockey:

S. O'Brien, S. Montador (you know, the guy with the +15), M. Greene, M. Walker, F. Bouillon, N. Boynton & P. Mara are all dmen.

You're right that I didn't look very closely at the list. I think saying that I don't know much about hockey is a bit off.

That said, in the context of your original point it certainly bears mentioning that of the D-men you've listed here, only O'Brien and Montador make less than ~2m, and they will be an RFA and a UFA next year, respectively---which means they're in for a good payday. As such, dropping the salaries of fourth-liners in order to pick them up ain't an option. If they're able to fight and able to score, then they get paid, and this is the salary cap era. It's all well and good to say that we should drop some player of little value in order to pick up a player who is obviously good, but that's not really in meeting with reality.

That said, way to "discuss." Perhaps you'd rather take up dictation instead.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Crymson

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

You're right that I didn't look very closely at the list. I think saying that I don't know much about hockey is a bit off.

That said, in the context of your original point it certainly bears mentioning that of the D-men you've listed here, only O'Brien and Montador make less than ~2m, and they will be an RFA and a UFA next year, respectively---which means they're in for a good payday. As such, dropping the salaries of fourth-liners in order to pick them up ain't an option. If they're able to fight and able to score, then they get paid, and this is the salary cap era. It's all well and good to say that we should drop some player of little value in order to pick up a player who is obviously good, but that's not really in meeting with reality.

That said, way to "discuss." Perhaps you'd rather take up dictation instead.

This made me laugh coming from a guy where 9 out of 10 of his posts are ripping on someone else's post or opinion. Pot, meet kettle.

[CrossoverThrash 0]

there's no way in hell Lucic loses more often than Carcillo lol he's lost maybe 2-3 fights so far in the NHL

He has lost more than that and has a higher loss ratio since he dosen't fight as much.

[sureWhyNot 19]

You're right that I didn't look very closely at the list. I think saying that I don't know much about hockey is a bit off.

That said, in the context of your original point it certainly bears mentioning that of the D-men you've listed here, only O'Brien and Montador make less than ~2m, and they will be an RFA and a UFA next year, respectively---which means they're in for a good payday. As such, dropping the salaries of fourth-liners in order to pick them up ain't an option. If they're able to fight and able to score, then they get paid, and this is the salary cap era. It's all well and good to say that we should drop some player of little value in order to pick up a player who is obviously good, but that's not really in meeting with reality.

That said, way to "discuss." Perhaps you'd rather take up dictation instead.

Ha ha, anything you have to say or argue in regards to the Red Wings or hockey in general holds very, very little validity in my book.

You didn't look very closely at first? HALF THE LIST WAS DMEN, how do you miss that if you look at all.

So it's either a) you're not very familiar with anything in and around the NHL besides the Red Wings org. or b) (and this wouldn't suprise me) You are like so many other people on here who argue irrelevant points by literally contriving up things that aren't true whatsoever.

Either way, I am not very keen on giving any argument you make much consideration.

[Guest Crymson]

Ha ha, anything you have to say or argue in regards to the Red Wings or hockey in general holds very, very little validity in my book.

You didn't look very closely at first? HALF THE LIST WAS DMEN, how do you miss that if you look at all.

So it's either a) you're not very familiar with anything in and around the NHL besides the Red Wings org. or b) (and this wouldn't suprise me) You are like so many other people on here who argue irrelevant points by literally contriving up things that aren't true whatsoever.

Either way, I am not very keen on giving any argument you make much consideration.

By the way that you ignored everything I just said, I can see that.

I'm sad to see the state that these forums have devolved to. It seems to me that most of those who were actually interested in supporting and appreciating the team rather than merely bashing it, and those who were actually interested in having intelligent discussion rather than simply yelling their opinions about what was wrong with the organization, have hit the road. Sadly, it seems last season's Cup win brought a flood of people to this board who, having tasted victory, are now angered and indignant when presented with anything less than perfection. I know I can be caustic in my own way, and that I'm certainly no more perfect than the next guy, but I feel sad for those who still look for intelligent discussion on these boards and instead find themselves turned off by the constant flood of nonsense. But maybe it's just me.

I also feel sorry for you---such hostility. Anger much?

Anyway, I'm done on this one.

[Datzooky 0]

Ha ha, anything you have to say or argue in regards to the Red Wings or hockey in general holds very, very little validity in my book.

You didn't look very closely at first? HALF THE LIST WAS DMEN, how do you miss that if you look at all.

So it's either a) you're not very familiar with anything in and around the NHL besides the Red Wings org. or b) (and this wouldn't suprise me) You are like so many other people on here who argue irrelevant points by literally contriving up things that aren't true whatsoever.

Either way, I am not very keen on giving any argument you make much consideration.

No these boards have went to hell. I've been mostly reading since 2002 and I have never seen it this bad.

There are a lot of great posters here, these are just a few:

Edicius

Eva Unit Zero

Haroldsnepsts

Norrisnick

I use to read these boards to hear these guys and others discuss hockey. Now there are just a ton of tools calling each other names and you really have to work hard to find any piece of useful information.

People are complaining about how bad the Wings are after winning the cup, but I think these boards are the main casualty.