Sharks attribute success to Shelley's watchful Eye

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

Shelley's salary, according to the nhlpa.com website:

08/09 Compensation: $725,000.00

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Hey thanks for proving yourself wrong - We had an enforcer in the line-up and yet Lidstrom still got run-over. What gives?

Wow, you really don't get it at all. Big hits in hockey aren't going to magically disappear with an enforcer in the lineup. It's a deterrent, and if you watched the video or even remember that game Laperriere took a nice beating. That single game brought the team very close and the whole bench was congratulating Downey after his 5 pim major.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Hey thanks for proving yourself wrong - We had an enforcer in the line-up and yet Lidstrom still got run-over. What gives?

We had McCarty in the line-up in the Nashville series and Tootoo still stomped on Kris Drapers back and spent the entire series being a little *****. Having a fighter in the line-up did NOTHING to stop that.

If you think having Downey and/or McCarty in the line-up is going to solve this teams problems by making the rest of the team more physical you're sorely mistaken. In fact it would make it worse. One of our greatest strengths last season was that whilst no-one dropped the gloves, the players stood up for themselves physically and were not intimidated by the opposition - guys like Hudler and Sammy getting involved in scrums and facewashing - they weren't going to scare anyone, but they were prepared to stand up and not run away and hide. Every single opponent in the playoffs tried goonery at some point in each series and what good did it do them? None whatsoever, the wings shrugged it off and continued to outwork and outplay them.

This year, the shying away from physical stuff is just one of a myriad of problems this team faces as a result of "we won the cup" syndrome. Adding a fighter will only worsen the lack of "one-for-all, all-for-one" attitude of last year because why stand up for yourself when you can get someone to do it for you?

People are mentioning the Zetterberg roughing against Calgary - quite rightly - he got pushed around and no-one came to his defense. Last season all the skaters would have piled into a scrum, this year everyone stood around and let it happen. Having Downey on the bench though (lets be honest, he wouldn't be on the ice with Z) would not have prevented it one little bit, and even if he was on the ice, he's not going to pile in and drop the gloves because he'd probly get the extra penalty.

Which leads me on the instigator rule.....deserving of its own thread......in its current format it makes it nearly impossible for enforcers to be the policeman on the ice that you all describe.

NEV, one question, ever been to a Detroit Red Wings game? Felt the energy of the building, the smell of the rink, the walking of the tunnel from the parking garage, the mystique of bud Lynch on the announcements, or Karen Newman singing the National Anthem?

I can tell not, because you speak like a soccer fan, not a hockey fan sir. I suggest you try attending an NHL game before you talk down to people. Also, were you around watching the Wings in the 80s are did you decide that you'd join the fan base when they started winning cups? Just curious.

[Frozen-Man 144]

lol, such fantastic reasoning - The fact that we won the cup without an enforcer proves the fact that the enforcer was key. Bravo!

I'd like for us to have a little bit more toughness on the team and 1 or 2 guys who are prepared to drop the gloves - but as 1 of 18 regular skaters, not a 2-shift-per-game passenger like Downey. Any fighter on our roster needs to be able hold his place as a player first and foremost and a fighter second. Shanny, McCarty and Lapointe were all on the team because they could play. That they fought was an added bonus.

HaHaHa that's what I was thinking. Additionally, the whole point of the article that started this thread is that the Sharks lost in the PLAYOFFS last year because they didn't have a guy like Shelley in the lineup. Don't get me wrong I would love a guy who would drop the gloves more but that is not really what Drake and Downey brought to the team. We were still last in fights last year with 21 and yet we won the cup anyway. With the season just a little over 1/3 over we have 7 fights this year which will put us right about where we were last year. Again, I would love to have a great enforcer who can play well for our team but that is not really an option for our team and the good ones either take up quite a bit of cap space (which we don't have) or are fixing to be RFA or UFA's and will get that big raise.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

Hey thanks for proving yourself wrong - We had an enforcer in the line-up and yet Lidstrom still got run-over. What gives?

We had McCarty in the line-up in the Nashville series and Tootoo still stomped on Kris Drapers back and spent the entire series being a little *****. Having a fighter in the line-up did NOTHING to stop that.

If you think having Downey and/or McCarty in the line-up is going to solve this teams problems by making the rest of the team more physical you're sorely mistaken. In fact it would make it worse. One of our greatest strengths last season was that whilst no-one dropped the gloves, the players stood up for themselves physically and were not intimidated by the opposition - guys like Hudler and Sammy getting involved in scrums and facewashing - they weren't going to scare anyone, but they were prepared to stand up and not run away and hide. Every single opponent in the playoffs tried goonery at some point in each series and what good did it do them? None whatsoever, the wings shrugged it off and continued to outwork and outplay them.

This year, the shying away from physical stuff is just one of a myriad of problems this team faces as a result of "we won the cup" syndrome. Adding a fighter will only worsen the lack of "one-for-all, all-for-one" attitude of last year because why stand up for yourself when you can get someone to do it for you?

People are mentioning the Zetterberg roughing against Calgary - quite rightly - he got pushed around and no-one came to his defense. Last season all the skaters would have piled into a scrum, this year everyone stood around and let it happen. Having Downey on the bench though (lets be honest, he wouldn't be on the ice with Z) would not have prevented it one little bit, and even if he was on the ice, he's not going to pile in and drop the gloves because he'd probly get the extra penalty.

Which leads me on the instigator rule.....deserving of its own thread......in its current format it makes it nearly impossible for enforcers to be the policeman on the ice that you all describe.

The bolded section pretty much outlines why you have no clue about the NHL game. Rather than waste my time trying to enlighten you about teamwork and locker room bonding I will just sit back and read more of your posts for the mere entertainment value. .

[Frozen-Man 144]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/92980-j...-sharks-rolling

Pretty misleading header. I read the article - the Sharks do not "attribute success to Shelley's watchful eye". In fact, no one from the Sharks is even quoted or attributed to saying anything about the subject. The only person who did "attribute success to Shelley's watchful eye" is Archie Roboostoff some random guy who joined two days ago joined a site where any fan can contribute an article. That's right check out the site it is open source and anybody can contribute an article just like this guy did. I'm thinking of writing an article on how no TV timeouts after an icing call is why the Sharks are doing so well this year and then starting a thread here citing the article and stating that the Sharks claimed that no TV timeouts after icing calls are the reason for their success. AGAIN, THE SHARKS ARE NOT MAKING THIS CLAIM SOME SHARKS FAN WHO IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH THE SHARKS OR EVEN A PROFESSION WRITER WHO MIGHT HAVE ACCESS TO THE SHARKS MANAGEMENT OR PLAYERS JOINED AN OPEN SOURCE SITE TWO DAYS AGO AND WROTE HIS OPINION ON THE SUBJECT BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT THE SHARKS OPINION.

To cite this as how the Sharks think about their season is silly. If this guy wants to have that opinion or any poster here wants to have that opinion that is fine BUT THERE IS NO INDICATION THAT IT IS THE SHARKS OPINION.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

NEV, one question, ever been to a Detroit Red Wings game? Felt the energy of the building, the smell of the rink, the walking of the tunnel from the parking garage, the mystique of bud Lynch on the announcements, or Karen Newman singing the National Anthem?

I can tell not, because you speak like a soccer fan, not a hockey fan sir. I suggest you try attending an NHL game before you talk down to people. Also, were you around watching the Wings in the 80s are did you decide that you'd join the fan base when they started winning cups? Just curious.

I was there on Monday night and the crowd was electric waiting for something physical to happen like the rivalry of old. When folks were leaving you could sense the disappointment from both a loss and an uneventful game. The most physical action that happened was Kopecky s***ting his pants while McLeod and McCormick were ready to beat his ass.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

I was there on Monday night and the crowd was electric waiting for something physical to happen like the rivalry of old. When folks were leaving you could sense the disappointment from both a loss and an uneventful game. The most physical action that happened was Kopecky s***ting his pants while McLeod and McCormick were ready to beat his ass.

lol, well said.

Kopecky is lucky that he 'faked getting at' McLeod and Cody, that would've been bad for Kops.

[Frozen-Man 144]

lol, well said.

Kopecky is lucky that he 'faked getting at' McLeod and Cody, that would've been bad for Kops.

No comment as to the article having nothing to do with the Sharks opinion?

[up2here 41]

For the record I am neither pro enforcer nor anti enforcer but I beleive this team needs a shake-up. I have been biting my tongue about Kopecky for a while but now it has to be said. There is nothing anyone can say to convince me that he should be in ther line-up over any of Downey,Helm or Leino. Why not throw Downey in there and see what happens?

[Frozen-Man 144]

For the record I am neither pro enforcer nor anti enforcer but I beleive this team needs a shake-up. I have been biting my tongue about Kopecky for a while but now it has to be said. There is nothing anyone can say to convince me that he should be in ther line-up over any of Downey,Helm or Leino. Why not throw Downey in there and see what happens?

Not wanting Kopey to go through waivers is the only reason I can think of.

[Z and D for the C 712]

You sound like an idiot -- plain and simple. I tried to think of other ways of saying it, but clearly it wouldn't have gotten through to you. For you to say that a guy who played 56 of the 82 regular season games had absolutely nothing to do with the teams overall success not only shows that you are clueless about hockey, but you really have no comprehension of team sports whatsoever.

The only thing that makes me cringe worse then watching the Wings play of late is reading posts like this, from people who will sit here all year and attempt to discredit the idea of having ANY sort of muscle on the time, while at the same time insist that guys like Dats, Zett, Hossa, etc should not only be looked at for our offense (and from the looks of our goaltending we're going to need a lot of it) but also the grit and what not needed to complete a well rounded hockey team.

I hate to tell ya man but you are in for a whirl of dissapointment. I am not trying to say that if we had Downey we would be playing better or win the cup, so don't even try framing it that way. We are so lacking in the "contact" aspect of hockey (you do remember it's a contact sport) that Downey or McCarty probably wouldn't do much at this point.

Detroit has turned into a one trick poney -- Undersized, offensive minded forwards and undersized, and subpar dmen with a handful of absolute superstars mixed in -- those being Zetterberg, Homer, Dats, Hossa, Franzen, Lids & Rafalski.

Guess what -- that will win us some games no doubt -- but it won't win you a cup.

Go back and read some of my other posts, that's not what I'm saying. Having a Martin Lucic would be awesome, but it's not as easy as just saying we want him. I'm not against "having any muscle", but Downey isn't the answer to all our problems like some people think. However I would be in favor of putting Downey in over Kopecky.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Trying to teach Wings fans about the value of an enforcer is like trying to teach little kids about the value of reading Shakespeare. There's no point to it.

How can you argue against idiots who claim that Downey is a useless player, just because he doesn't put up points? It's hopeless.

I wonder if any Wings player actually agrees with some of the B.S. the anti-enforcer crowd is spewing about Downey and enforcers in general?

[up2here 41]

Trying to teach Wings fans about the value of an enforcer is like trying to teach little kids about the value of reading Shakespeare. There's no point to it.

How can you argue against idiots who claim that Downey is a useless player, just because he doesn't put up points? It's hopeless.

I wonder if any Wings player actually agrees with some of the B.S. the anti-enforcer crowd is spewing about Downey and enforcers in general?

I beleive the game is changing and the Enforcer is slowly dying and I think the newer generation of fans see that and the older ones do not. Now this doesnt mean we dont still need an enforcer now but we may not in 10 years.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

I beleive the game is changing and the Enforcer is slowly dying and I think the newer generation of fans see that and the older ones do not. Now this doesnt mean we dont still need an enforcer now but we may not in 10 years.

Most teams in the league carry at least one enforcer and several other middleweights. How is the league changing again?

In fact, fighting is up this year. And most of those enforcers are guys who don't score any more points than Downey does.

[Johnny Law 15]

Trying to teach Wings fans about the value of an enforcer is like trying to teach little kids about the value of reading Shakespeare. There's no point to it.

How can you argue against idiots who claim that Downey is a useless player, just because he doesn't put up points? It's hopeless.

I wonder if any Wings player actually agrees with some of the B.S. the anti-enforcer crowd is spewing about Downey and enforcers in general?

That's bs and you know it, the Wings have had alot of success without having a classic enforcer on the roster. Whatever a persons specific ideology may be regarding enforcers at the end of the day they just want the Wings to win.

I would like to see Downey up for the Sharks game, they should have plenty of energy and emotion going into that game but Downey can provide some if necessary. I'm 100% sure some players would feel more comfortable with him in the lineup, it violates basic human setup to think otherwise.

The real problem is how we get cap space....

[HOCKEY MATTERS 167]

The real problem is how we get cap space....

get rid of al sobatka. the 4th line has to take turns driving the Zamboni. plus it should only be a 2 minute penalty for swinging octopie around instead of the 10 billions dollar fine for al doing it.

that should help.

[Datzooky 0]

Here is an article on topic from a couple months ago.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic.../810210334/1004

[Mors 201]

Not wanting Kopey to go through waivers is the only reason I can think of.

What's the risk? Losing an extremely valuable asset to the team? Kopecky is a joke. 17 points in a 133 games now I think it's time to stop pretending he's going to develop into anything this team is lacking.

[Frozen-Man 144]

I beleive the game is changing and the Enforcer is slowly dying and I think the newer generation of fans see that and the older ones do not. Now this doesnt mean we dont still need an enforcer now but we may not in 10 years.

Also, it seems like too often it pro-enforcer v. anti-enforcer. I am not anti-enforcer at all. I loved seeing Shanny drop the gloves and love seeing a fight in a game. I think that they should get rid of the instigator penalty and would hate it if they took fighting out of the game (in fact it is one of the best things about hockey - other sports players are always mouthing off but in hockey that gets you punched - it helps keep egos and attitudes in check as well as cheap shots). However, to say that Shelley is the reason for the Sharks success is silly to me; simplistic, basic, and silly. To argue that without Downey we would not have won the Cup is unimportant because it is an improvable statement. We might have lost, but I doubt it and since there is no way to alter reality there is no way to know. Drake and Downey were undoubtedly important to the team, but there is know way of knowing if we would have lost without them. Downey was not a big enforcer, he was a guy who was willing to fight and I appreciate that and loved every time that he fought but in honesty I think the grit of the team was shown more in Pav's willingness to throw the body and to muck it up on the boards.

The team this year is lacking passion but I don't think that the fact that Downey will drop the gloves will change that. His enthusiasm and work ethic would likely have more of an impact on the team than being willing to fight would. The team is playing uninspired until they are down a couple of goals then they try hard. Maybe it is the fact that they played till June (Pitt looks a little uninspired as well), maybe they have Cup hangover, maybe they just don't have the desire like they did last year, or maybe they know its a long season and think they can turn it on in the second half. Who knows, but Kronner isn't hitting (neither is Stuart), Nick is playing sub-par (although picking it up lately), Dats and Z while playing hard hard have seemed a few steps off and are not getting tape to tape passes, neither goalie is playing well, and there is just a lack of jump from the team in general. I don't think Downey is going to change all that very much. The guys don't seem afraid of the other team, afraid of cheap shots, or afraid of getting hit - they just aren't working as hard as the other team - and until they do bringing up Downey or Mac or whoever won't change much.

[Guest Shoreline]

Hey thanks for proving yourself wrong - We had an enforcer in the line-up and yet Lidstrom still got run-over. What gives?

Well, goalies still allow goals. What gives? May as well just pull them 100% of the time for another scorer. You just proved yourself and your own logic wrong here.

We had McCarty in the line-up in the Nashville series and Tootoo still stomped on Kris Drapers back and spent the entire series being a little *****. Having a fighter in the line-up did NOTHING to stop that.

Probably because the "fighter" wasn't much of a fighter, or a message sender. Duh. Who the hell is afraid of McCarty?

If you think having Downey and/or McCarty in the line-up is going to solve this teams problems by making the rest of the team more physical you're sorely mistaken. In fact it would make it worse. One of our greatest strengths last season was that whilst no-one dropped the gloves, the players stood up for themselves physically and were not intimidated by the opposition - guys like Hudler and Sammy getting involved in scrums and facewashing - they weren't going to scare anyone, but they were prepared to stand up and not run away and hide. Every single opponent in the playoffs tried goonery at some point in each series and what good did it do them? None whatsoever, the wings shrugged it off and continued to outwork and outplay them.

Now you just proved you clearly missed last season. Must have only started watching in the playoffs.

Care to check out the fight card? Downey and Drake were sure as hell fighting a lot, and both were laying some pretty big hits, as well as taking the pressure off the boys so they could work their magic throughout the season.

This year, the shying away from physical stuff is just one of a myriad of problems this team faces as a result of "we won the cup" syndrome. Adding a fighter will only worsen the lack of "one-for-all, all-for-one" attitude of last year because why stand up for yourself when you can get someone to do it for you?

This argument was shot down several times already given the amount of points and +/- a good amount of enforcers have. No need to kick a dead horse.

People are mentioning the Zetterberg roughing against Calgary - quite rightly - he got pushed around and no-one came to his defense. Last season all the skaters would have piled into a scrum, this year everyone stood around and let it happen. Having Downey on the bench though (lets be honest, he wouldn't be on the ice with Z) would not have prevented it one little bit, and even if he was on the ice, he's not going to pile in and drop the gloves because he'd probly get the extra penalty.

No, but instead he might turn around and run after a few of Calgary's players. You obviously miss the point of an enforcer altogether with statements like that. They aren't there to just fight. They also use their body and hit people, as well as try to score on occasion, and they do.

Which leads me on the instigator rule.....deserving of its own thread......in its current format it makes it nearly impossible for enforcers to be the policeman on the ice that you all describe.

Strange because fights are up the last few seasons. Looks like they are doing it anyways.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

That's bs and you know it, the Wings have had alot of success without having a classic enforcer on the roster. Whatever a persons specific ideology may be regarding enforcers at the end of the day they just want the Wings to win.

I would like to see Downey up for the Sharks game, they should have plenty of energy and emotion going into that game but Downey can provide some if necessary. I'm 100% sure some players would feel more comfortable with him in the lineup, it violates basic human setup to think otherwise.

The real problem is how we get cap space....

You must be referring to the years they won the President's Trophy and not the Stanley Cup, correct? Correct me if I'm wrong, but every year they won the cup they had a Downey type player playing more than half of the regular season games and a Drake like player in all of the games including playoffs. Players who play the game with their heart on their sleeve like the aforementioned can make a positive impact in the locker room and on the ice....

[Mors 201]

It is funny how fast people forget that Downey played in 56 games last season, and the team continually sung his praises the entire time.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

For the record I am neither pro enforcer nor anti enforcer but I beleive this team needs a shake-up. I have been biting my tongue about Kopecky for a while but now it has to be said. There is nothing anyone can say to convince me that he should be in ther line-up over any of Downey,Helm or Leino. Why not throw Downey in there and see what happens?

I respect your unbiased opinion. I agree.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Okay, I have gathered all the team's fighting majors from around the league. Granted there's no need to have 37 fighting majors as Anaheim does (although what a blast to watch them play); however, we're at 7 and the CURRENT best team in the League is towards the bottom of that list with 17 fighting majors. It's 'cute' that the Red Wings are bucking the trend and all, but they're also becoming hard to watch at times and inneffective.

Rank Team Fight Totals

1 Anaheim Ducks 37

2 Vancouver Canucks 36

3 Philadelphia Flyers 32

4 St. Louis Blues 31

5 Chicago Blackhawks 29

6 Calgary Flames 27

7 New York Rangers 26

8 New Jersey Devils 25

9 Colorado Avalanche 24

10 Edmonton Oilers 24

11 Phoenix Coyotes 24

12 Atlanta Thrashers 23

13 Columbus Blue Jackets 23

14 Nashville Predators 22

15 Dallas Stars 20

16 Los Angeles Kings 20

17 Buffalo Sabres 19

18 New York Islanders 19

19 Boston Bruins 18

20 Tampa Bay Lightning 18

21 Minnesota Wild 17

22 San Jose Sharks 17

23 Toronto Maple Leafs 17

24 Ottawa Senators 16

25 Pittsburgh Penguins 16

26 Montreal Canadiens 15

27 Carolina Hurricanes 14

28 Florida Panthers 10

29 Washington Capitals 10

30 Detroit Red Wings 7