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Any News on Zetterberg?


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#21 Doggy

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 07:18 PM

QUOTE (Homer4ver @ December 21, 2008 - 07:14PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And yes, he won the Conn Smyth but it could have easily went to Crosby, Hossa or Datsyuk and no one would have questioned it, so he wasn't head and shoulders above the competition.

I certainly would have questioned Datsyuk getting the Smythe. Hank and Osgood were miles ahead of any other Red Wing, Datsyuk included.
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#22 RWK23

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 07:37 PM

QUOTE (Homer4ver @ December 21, 2008 - 07:14PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Regardless of how you feel about Zetterberg vs Hossa. The fact is, Datsyuk, who has led the team in scoring for three years(Would have been four without the lockout), has two Stanley Cups and an equally nice trophy case, makes $6.7 million per season.

NOTHING, either Zetterberg or Hossa has done justifies making anything more than Datsyuk and its that simple. The cap is going down next season and we have an allstar team of players taking less than market value to play in Detroit.

Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin all make over $8.5 mill and quite frankly Zetterberg isn't that kind of player, never has been and never will be.

And yes, he won the Conn Smyth but it could have easily went to Crosby, Hossa or Datsyuk and no one would have questioned it, so he wasn't head and shoulders above the competition.

Everything ive read about Hossa gives me the impression that he'll play for less, less than $8.5


Uh, yeah, a lot of people would have questioned it. The Conn Smythe should almost always go to a player on the Stanley Cup-winning team unless a player on the losing team just had an unreal postseason, a la Giguere in '02. Hossa and Crosby were both good, but neither were as good as Zetterberg. Same with Datsyuk.

You actually left out the one guy who actually had a legitimate argument, IMO, and that's Chris Osgood. I'm not saying that Zetterberg is as good as Crosby, Ovechkin, or Malkin, but let's not understate what he's done.

"...who fires it out to center ice, five seconds to go, Gonchar to Malkin over the Detroit line pushes it forward. BACKHAND TRY, OH, OSGOOD THE SAVE AND THE REBOUND SLIPS RIGHT PAST THE GOAL MARK! AND THE DETROIT RED WINGS ARE THE 2008 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS!" - Ken Kal

#23 big_D

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 07:57 PM

Did any one see Pav,s is leading the team in points now..?



#24 RWK23

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 08:14 PM

QUOTE (big_D @ December 21, 2008 - 07:57PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Did any one see Pav,s is leading the team in points now..?


Yeah, six points in two games will help with that. tongue.gif

Edited by RWK23, 21 December 2008 - 08:15 PM.

"...who fires it out to center ice, five seconds to go, Gonchar to Malkin over the Detroit line pushes it forward. BACKHAND TRY, OH, OSGOOD THE SAVE AND THE REBOUND SLIPS RIGHT PAST THE GOAL MARK! AND THE DETROIT RED WINGS ARE THE 2008 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS!" - Ken Kal

#25 Grim

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 08:36 PM

There are four players with cap numbers over $7.5M. Z has truly been great... but lets not go crazy.

#26 chrisdetroit

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 09:01 PM

QUOTE (Homer4ver @ December 21, 2008 - 07:14PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Regardless of how you feel about Zetterberg vs Hossa. The fact is, Datsyuk, who has led the team in scoring for three years(Would have been four without the lockout), has two Stanley Cups and an equally nice trophy case, makes $6.7 million per season.

NOTHING, either Zetterberg or Hossa has done justifies making anything more than Datsyuk and its that simple. The cap is going down next season and we have an allstar team of players taking less than market value to play in Detroit.

Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin all make over $8.5 mill and quite frankly Zetterberg isn't that kind of player, never has been and never will be.

And yes, he won the Conn Smyth but it could have easily went to Crosby, Hossa or Datsyuk and no one would have questioned it, so he wasn't head and shoulders above the competition.

Everything ive read about Hossa gives me the impression that he'll play for less, less than $8.5


Dats signed his contract 2 or 3 years ago. Inflation has increased salaries since then. If Dats was signing a contract this year it would easily be for 7-8 mil. I expect Z to sign for 7.5 or more. 8mil would not surprise me.

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#27 chrisdetroit

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 09:08 PM

QUOTE (TheOwl @ December 21, 2008 - 05:42PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Does anyone actually see Hossa or Zetterberg not signing for a long term 7.45 deal if offered? It's not like thats a huge discount for either of them. The year after next year Lidstrom's contract expires, so it'll be interesting to see if he retires, signs for less, or keeps getting 7.45.


You're kidding right? Hossa or Z could easily get 9-10 mil on the open market. A 38 year old Sundin just got the equivalent of 10 mil. What makes you think that Z or Hossa in the prime of their careers couldn't get that much?

We are talking about franchise players in the prime of their careerss.

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#28 ben_usmc

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 09:14 PM

QUOTE (Homer4ver @ December 21, 2008 - 07:14PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Regardless of how you feel about Zetterberg vs Hossa. The fact is, Datsyuk, who has led the team in scoring for three years(Would have been four without the lockout), has two Stanley Cups and an equally nice trophy case, makes $6.7 million per season.

NOTHING, either Zetterberg or Hossa has done justifies making anything more than Datsyuk and its that simple. The cap is going down next season and we have an allstar team of players taking less than market value to play in Detroit.

Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin all make over $8.5 mill and quite frankly Zetterberg isn't that kind of player, never has been and never will be.

And yes, he won the Conn Smyth but it could have easily went to Crosby, Hossa or Datsyuk and no one would have questioned it, so he wasn't head and shoulders above the competition.

Everything ive read about Hossa gives me the impression that he'll play for less, less than $8.5

Exactly, on every account.
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#29 RedWingedKitten

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 09:19 PM

When Datsyuk signed his contract the cap was much lower, therefore a smaller percent of the Wings salary. If he were to have signed that contract today it would be somewhere between 7-7.5, which is the amount I believe Z will sign for.

#30 Homer4ver

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 09:20 PM

QUOTE (RWK23 @ December 21, 2008 - 07:37PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Uh, yeah, a lot of people would have questioned it. The Conn Smythe should almost always go to a player on the Stanley Cup-winning team unless a player on the losing team just had an unreal postseason, a la Giguere in '02. Hossa and Crosby were both good, but neither were as good as Zetterberg. Same with Datsyuk.

You actually left out the one guy who actually had a legitimate argument, IMO, and that's Chris Osgood. I'm not saying that Zetterberg is as good as Crosby, Ovechkin, or Malkin, but let's not understate what he's done.


Zetterberg had one shift, "The shift" that baised everyone towards naming him the best player in the league last season. He played well on a five on three and probably saved a goal but that was one game and one shift. He was an aferthought in the first two rounds, while Datsyuk was consistantly the Red Wings best forward during the entire playoffs.

Its the same argument as in 2002, the Smyth could have gone to Fedorov or Yzerman without question.

07-08 Playoff stats

Hossa:

20 games, 12 goals, 14 assists, 26 points, +8, 12 PIM, 2 GWG

Zetterberg:

22 games, 13 goals, 14 assists, 27 points, +11, 16 PIM, 4 GWG

Datsyuk:

22 games, 10 goals, 13 assists, 23 points, +13, 6 PIM, 1 GWG

Franzen:

16 games, 13 goals, 5 assists, 18 points, +13, 14 PIM, 5 GWG

Crosby:

20 games, 6 goals, 21 assists, 27 points, +7, 12 PIM, 1 GWG

Osgood:

19 games, 14 wins, 3 shutouts, 30 GA, .930 SV%, 1.55 GA, 22 shots per game

Fleury:

20 games, 14 wins, 3 shutouts, 41 GA, .933 SV%, 1.97 GA, 31 shots per game


Going with purely statistics, Hossa and Crosby both outscored Zetterberg, even if they lost. Fleury faced more shots per game and had nearly similar statistics, while Osgood was playing for the best defensive team in the league.

I would then argue that the only thing that put Zetterberg ahead of the pack was his defensive play, which again, culminated during one game of the Stanley Cup finals. It was an obvious bias, especially when he didn't and will never win a Selke.

Saying that Zetterberg was head and shoulders above the rest is just wrong, any of the three (Datsyuk, Zetterberg or Franzen) could have won, along with Hossa or Crosby. Z didn't dominate in any fashion, he played well but the Conn Smyth is not indicative of overall ability.

Theres no reason that either Zetterberg or Hossa deserves more salary per season over Datsyuk or Lidstrom. Both players took pretty sizeable discounts to stay in Detroit and thats pretty much the only reason they have been successful post lockout.

If Datsyuk really wanted to cash out, he would have signed for eight million per season with Philly and Lidstrom would be making nine or ten million for the Rangers. Both players took a discount to continue winning, so I don't see how the so called "Future captain" can justify making $8.5 million a season, especially with the current economy and lowered salary cap.

If Hossa is willing to take less for the same time frame, than sign him, even if it means losing Zetterberg, its not like we don't have secondary scoring that wouldn't replace him.

#31 Homer4ver

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 09:26 PM

QUOTE (chrisdetroit @ December 21, 2008 - 09:08PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You're kidding right? Hossa or Z could easily get 9-10 mil on the open market. A 38 year old Sundin just got the equivalent of 10 mil. What makes you think that Z or Hossa in the prime of their careers couldn't get that much?

We are talking about franchise players in the prime of their careerss.


Lets talk about franchise players:

Datsyuk, Thornton, Crosby, Malkin, Iginla, Lidstrom, Luongo, Kovalchuk, Nash, Gaborik all make less than ten million dollars per season. All of the players listest besides, Crosby, Lidstrom and Malkin make $6.7 mill or less per season.

Everyone, including Zetterberg, Holland and yourself knows that the salary cap is going to decline next season and probably the one after that too.

If Z pushes for anything more than Hossa's $7.4 million hes delusional. The only thing that may justify a $8.5 million dollar pay check is:

- Finishing a full season
- Leading the team in scoring
- Winning a Selke
- Winning a Hart, Pearson, Conn Smyth(Again)

If none of those things happens, give me just one example of why Zetterberg is more valuable than Datsyuk or even Hossa.

Edited by Homer4ver, 21 December 2008 - 09:29 PM.


#32 Homer4ver

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 09:33 PM

QUOTE (RWK23 @ December 21, 2008 - 08:14PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, six points in two games will help with that. tongue.gif


He dominated both games, what these points don't count?

Datsyuk was off to a slow start but in nearly every game, every shift he created some kind of scoring chance. Hes now leading the team in scoring, which is where everyone should expect him to be.

Hes on pace for 30 goals, 87 points and more than likely a Selke win or top three nomination.

Ive yet to see a good reason for anyone to justify Zetterberg making nearly two million more dollars per season over the teams leading scorer and reigning Selke/Byng winner, who was also second in team playoff scoring.

#33 RWK23

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 09:55 PM

First off, not that this makes a huge deal, but you got Z's +/- wrong. It was actually +16, which led all playoff performers, not +11.

Second of all:
Nashville series - 6 GP, 2 G, 2 A, 4 points, +2, 31 SOG, 1 GWG
Colorado series - 4 GP, 5 G, 4 A, 9 points, +6, 23 SOG, 1 GWG
Dallas series - 6 GP, 4 G, 4 A, 8 points, +7, 30 SOG, 1 GWG
Pittsburgh series - 6 GP, 2 G, 4 A, 6 points, +1, 32 SOG, 1 GWG

An afterthought the first two rounds? Really?

Third of all, Henrik Zetterberg will never win a Selke? Really? The dude was a finalist last year and finished second to his teammate. That's a bold prediction with not much to back it up.

"The shift" might have clinched the Conn Smythe for Zetterberg, but it didn't win it for him. I'm not going to argue that I think he's worth 8.5 million or whatever, but I feel like the people who are brushing him off as someone who isn't an elite player are clearly forgetting about what he did for us last year. Yeah, maybe he isn't in the league of a Crosby or Malkin, but he was as good as or better than both in the postseason last year.
"...who fires it out to center ice, five seconds to go, Gonchar to Malkin over the Detroit line pushes it forward. BACKHAND TRY, OH, OSGOOD THE SAVE AND THE REBOUND SLIPS RIGHT PAST THE GOAL MARK! AND THE DETROIT RED WINGS ARE THE 2008 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS!" - Ken Kal

#34 RWK23

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 09:58 PM

QUOTE (Homer4ver @ December 21, 2008 - 09:33PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He dominated both games, what these points don't count?

Datsyuk was off to a slow start but in nearly every game, every shift he created some kind of scoring chance. Hes now leading the team in scoring, which is where everyone should expect him to be.

Hes on pace for 30 goals, 87 points and more than likely a Selke win or top three nomination.

Ive yet to see a good reason for anyone to justify Zetterberg making nearly two million more dollars per season over the teams leading scorer and reigning Selke/Byng winner, who was also second in team playoff scoring.


What? I wasn't brushing off Datsyuk's games. He was amazing in both. You're misinterpreting what I meant by that. It wasn't meant as a negative. I was just giving the reason he's leading the team in scoring now.

And as to your last point, inflation. That's the justification. And trust me, he won't be making $2 million more than him when all is said and done. I'm confident his cap number will be below or equal to Lidstrom's.

Edited by RWK23, 21 December 2008 - 09:59 PM.

"...who fires it out to center ice, five seconds to go, Gonchar to Malkin over the Detroit line pushes it forward. BACKHAND TRY, OH, OSGOOD THE SAVE AND THE REBOUND SLIPS RIGHT PAST THE GOAL MARK! AND THE DETROIT RED WINGS ARE THE 2008 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS!" - Ken Kal

#35 Doggy

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 10:04 PM

QUOTE (Homer4ver @ December 21, 2008 - 09:33PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ive yet to see a good reason for anyone to justify Zetterberg making nearly two million more dollars per season over the teams leading scorer and reigning Selke/Byng winner, who was also second in team playoff scoring.

Datsyuk's cap hit is more than $4m more than Hank's right now. It doesn't mean he is worth $4m more. Things change after a contract is signed. Your logic is flawed and your opinion is heavily biased.

Edited by Doggy, 21 December 2008 - 10:04 PM.

Rough as guts.

#36 HomeNugget

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 10:38 PM

Though a lot of people like to think so, how much money Zetterberg makes has nothing to do with the salary of anyone else. Zetterberg is not stupid. He knows how much he's worth on the open market.

#37 gcom007

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 10:47 PM

Hossa>Datsyuk>Zetterberg in my opinion...

They're all truly outstanding, but I think Hossa's got more pure scoring power along with the great D and incredibly hard work. I think Datsyuk really is a better all around player than Z and on top of that, he's outscored Z consistently (largely due to injuries, but that's worth considering too...especially considering the nature of back injuries) and I honestly don't think Z deserved the Conn Smythe anymore than Dats or Osgood. In fact, I said it then and I feel the same way now, I would've given it to Datsyuk. He's one of those guys like Lidstrom that does everything in such a smooth and efficient manner that you oftentimes don't even recognize just how great he is because it just seems so simple and natural.

That said, I could honestly see Hossa signing for Datsyuk money before Z would. Just a hunch, but I think it says something...I'm not trying to knock anyone, but I'm just not quite as nuts over Z as some. He's great, but I don't think he's worlds beyond Hossa or Datsyuk at all. Hossa would've won the Conn Smythe if he was on our squad hands down without a doubt. He would've done all the overall stuff Zetterberg does and would've scored more and more consistently. He's simply an outstanding, profoundly exceptional hockey player on so many levels.

Anyways...

Hank+Hossa at $7.25 million each long term '09...dreams can come true...

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#38 Homer4ver

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 11:00 PM

QUOTE (RWK23 @ December 21, 2008 - 09:55PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
First off, not that this makes a huge deal, but you got Z's +/- wrong. It was actually +16, which led all playoff performers, not +11.

Second of all:
Nashville series - 6 GP, 2 G, 2 A, 4 points, +2, 31 SOG, 1 GWG
Colorado series - 4 GP, 5 G, 4 A, 9 points, +6, 23 SOG, 1 GWG
Dallas series - 6 GP, 4 G, 4 A, 8 points, +7, 30 SOG, 1 GWG
Pittsburgh series - 6 GP, 2 G, 4 A, 6 points, +1, 32 SOG, 1 GWG

An afterthought the first two rounds? Really?

Third of all, Henrik Zetterberg will never win a Selke? Really? The dude was a finalist last year and finished second to his teammate. That's a bold prediction with not much to back it up.

"The shift" might have clinched the Conn Smythe for Zetterberg, but it didn't win it for him. I'm not going to argue that I think he's worth 8.5 million or whatever, but I feel like the people who are brushing him off as someone who isn't an elite player are clearly forgetting about what he did for us last year. Yeah, maybe he isn't in the league of a Crosby or Malkin, but he was as good as or better than both in the postseason last year.


My opinion has nothing to do with being biased, its the fact that Zetterberg has been outperformed by Datsyuk completely during his career. Datsyuk took less than hes worth to play here and hes done everything asked of him by the organization.

Zetterberg expecting 8.5 mill, even for one season is irrational and doesn't shine well on his "Next captain" moniker.

Last season, Hossa outperformed Zetterberg and this season hes doing the same.

Last season, Datsyuk outperformed Zetterberg during the regular season and 75% of the playoffs and hes making $6.7 million, along with tons of other "Franchise players" that signed after him.

Not one person has given me a solid reason as to why Z should make anything more than $7 mill per season and "Inflation" is meaningless. Its two seasons and we're going through the worst recession in twenty years, the cap is going to decrease for at least two seasons.

Using Zetterberg's current contract to justify overpaying him now is ridiculous. He took a lengthy, terrible deal, played better than expectations and was underpaid. It could have very easily went the other way and Z could have turned into a third liner making $3 mill per season.

Its the same thing the organization did with Kronwall and is doing with Filippula. Does that mean if Flip turned into an 80 point two-way center, the team should throw $2 million per season extra at him to make up for overpaying for his services?

And Mats Sundin is worth $10 million pro-rated because hes signing with a terrible team. Hes getting paid extra to deal with the fact that hes not going to win this season. If he signed with a contender he would have dropped his price significantly.

Its a simple argument, Z vs Hossa and its an obvious choice. Everyone has been waiting years for Datsyuk to get a legitment sniper on his line, all of the pipe dreams of Kovalchuk are finally here. Hossa is good for 40, 50 and maybe 60 goals with Dats. If that means sacrificing a second line center than so be it, we have another center to take his place in Flip, who happens to be earning a second liners salary.




#39 zettsyukwall415

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 11:07 PM

QUOTE (Homer4ver @ December 21, 2008 - 11:00PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Last season, Hossa outperformed Zetterberg and this season hes doing the same.


I'm not getting into this whole debate but I just had to comment on this line. Are you seriously trying to tell me that a guy who had 29 goals and 66 points had a better season than a guy who had 43 goals and 92 points?

2008 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS!!!

#40 GoWings1905

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 11:15 PM

QUOTE (Homer4ver @ December 21, 2008 - 11:00PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Last season, Hossa outperformed Zetterberg and this season hes doing the same.

Last season, Datsyuk outperformed Zetterberg during the regular season and 75% of the playoffs and hes making $6.7 million, along with tons of other "Franchise players" that signed after him.


^ How did you come to that conclusion in either case?
 
 
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