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Any News on Zetterberg?


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#41 VM1138

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 11:29 PM

I feel like vomiting from reading so much anti-Zetterberg stuff on a Wings message board. Disgusting. A few weeks ago he was a god among men and now he's just your average almost-star?

Wow...
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#42 MaynardJKeenan

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 11:46 PM

QUOTE (gcom007 @ December 21, 2008 - 10:47PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hossa>Datsyuk>Zetterberg in my opinion...

They're all truly outstanding, but I think Hossa's got more pure scoring power along with the great D and incredibly hard work. I think Datsyuk really is a better all around player than Z and on top of that, he's outscored Z consistently (largely due to injuries, but that's worth considering too...especially considering the nature of back injuries) and I honestly don't think Z deserved the Conn Smythe anymore than Dats or Osgood. In fact, I said it then and I feel the same way now, I would've given it to Datsyuk. He's one of those guys like Lidstrom that does everything in such a smooth and efficient manner that you oftentimes don't even recognize just how great he is because it just seems so simple and natural.

That said, I could honestly see Hossa signing for Datsyuk money before Z would. Just a hunch, but I think it says something...I'm not trying to knock anyone, but I'm just not quite as nuts over Z as some. He's great, but I don't think he's worlds beyond Hossa or Datsyuk at all. Hossa would've won the Conn Smythe if he was on our squad hands down without a doubt. He would've done all the overall stuff Zetterberg does and would've scored more and more consistently. He's simply an outstanding, profoundly exceptional hockey player on so many levels.

Anyways...

Hank+Hossa at $7.25 million each long term '09...dreams can come true...

thumbup.gif I'm with you on this one. Hossa is just too good to let go. I wish we could keep both, but Hossa > Zetts.


#43 RWK23

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 11:52 PM

QUOTE (VM1138 @ December 21, 2008 - 11:29PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I feel like vomiting from reading so much anti-Zetterberg stuff on a Wings message board. Disgusting. A few weeks ago he was a god among men and now he's just your average almost-star?

Wow...


Completely agree. It doesn't help that Z is one of my favorite players, but I couldn't disagree more with some of the opinions around here regarding him. I'm also surprised by the amount of people who think that Hossa is better than Z and the amount of people that would rather have Hossa than Z if it came down to it despite everything Hank has done for this team in his 5+ seasons here.
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#44 Homer4ver

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 12:57 AM

QUOTE (zettsyukwall415 @ December 21, 2008 - 11:07PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not getting into this whole debate but I just had to comment on this line. Are you seriously trying to tell me that a guy who had 29 goals and 66 points had a better season than a guy who had 43 goals and 92 points?


66 points in 72 games, 60 of those games on arguably the worst team in the league. While outscoring Zetterberg in the playoffs.

Since the lockout:

Z:

274 points in 245 games, 1.12 PPG
129 goals

Hossa:

199 points in 186 games, .93 PPG
89 goals

Datsyuk:

305 points in 268 games, .89 PPG
107 goals


Neither Hossa or Z have played in more games or have even been as consistant as Datsyuk. While Zetterberg scores at a higher pace than either of the other two, he is still injured more frequently make him less valuable.

Datsyuk's salary sets the benchmark, if either Hossa or Z wants to make more than $6.7 million they actually have to outperform Datsyuk before its justified and since the lockout, that has yet to happen.

And this isn't about hating Zetterberg, im merely pointing out that the tired Zetterberg vs Datsyuk thing is over, its Z vs Hossa now and Hossa has been the superior player his entire career.

Loyalty goes out of the window when players start demanding a salary that they do not deserve. Since you know, Lidstrom is the best player in the world according to most of you, theres no reason for Z to make more than Nick, certainly not a million dollars more.

Hossa + Franzen > Zetterberg + Hudler

#45 Statts

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 01:36 AM

Hank and Hossa are amazing players.
Hank is priority #1. The fact that Hossa signed with the Wings in the first place is banana.gif
Just enjoy the high of having Hossa this year and deal with the hangover when the time comes.
P.S what an awesomely horrible decision to make. Wings fans are truly spoiled.
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#46 Doggy

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 01:50 AM

QUOTE (Homer4ver @ December 22, 2008 - 12:57AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Z:

274 points in 245 games, 1.12 PPG
129 goals

Hossa:

199 points in 186 games, .93 PPG
89 goals

Datsyuk:

305 points in 268 games, .89 PPG
107 goals

After looking at these numbers, I regret to inform you that nothing you post from here on is worth reading because you yourself aren't even reading it.
Rough as guts.

#47 zettsyukwall415

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 02:02 AM

QUOTE (Homer4ver @ December 22, 2008 - 12:57AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
66 points in 72 games, 60 of those games on arguably the worst team in the league. While outscoring Zetterberg in the playoffs.


Part of the reason they were one of the worst teams last year was because of his lack of production. And it doesn't matter if he played on a worse team. Z still outscored him by 26 points proving he had a better season. And he didn't outscore Z in the playoffs. He had one less point in 2 more games. There's no guarantee he would have gotten points in those 2 games.


QUOTE
Datsyuk's salary sets the benchmark, if either Hossa or Z wants to make more than $6.7 million they actually have to outperform Datsyuk before its justified and since the lockout, that has yet to happen.


As has been mentioned, he signed that deal 2 years ago. Salaries have gone up since then. Gomez, Campbell, and even Drury all make more than Datsyuk. There's no way Zetterberg makes less than them unless he signs a longer deal. Eric Staal just signed a contract that'll pay him $8.25 million a year and he hasn't been as good as Zetterberg either.

Another thing I'd like to add is that we wouldn't even have Hossa this year if it weren't for Z. It's because of his willingness to give up a year of unrestricted free agency at what is now a bargain price that we were able to acquire him.

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#48 Grim

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 02:30 AM

Relax everyone... no one should be suggesting that we let Zetterberg go. He will certainly get his extension. The only real concerns are the terms in his new contract. I say something in the neighborhood of Datsyuk and Lidstrom's current numbers is more than fair. If the terms are rich, hopefully KH can tack on some lean years at the end to help lower the cap number.

Realistically Z is not among the top-3 centermen in the league nor should he be paid as one. Some might say that Sundin's signing set the new bar. That was a desperation offer made by the Nucks hurting to sign anyone.

Honestly, Franzen's future contract worries me much more than Zetterberg's. Hossa is a pure afterthought.


#49 ComradeWasabi

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 02:50 AM

QUOTE (Homer4ver @ December 22, 2008 - 12:57AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Datsyuk:

305 points in 268 games, .89 PPG
107 goals


Post complete
QUOTE (thedisappearer @ December 13, 2008 - 10:13AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So, we're dogpiling on the goalie sammy Hudler the defense the refs league bias against us coaching now? Ok.

Babcock is lazy and he sucks!

#50 norrisnick

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 05:42 AM

QUOTE (Homer4ver @ December 21, 2008 - 10:00PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My opinion has nothing to do with being biased, its the fact that Zetterberg has been outperformed by Datsyuk completely during his career.
Not true. It is not a fact. It is an opinion. And said opinion is biased.

Datsyuk took less than hes worth to play here and hes done everything asked of him by the organization.

Not true. $6.7M/yr was a massive gamble for a guy that hadn't shown up in the playoffs for years. Good on Pavel for making good, but he did not take less than he was worth at the time he signed that contract.

Zetterberg expecting 8.5 mill, even for one season is irrational and doesn't shine well on his "Next captain" moniker.

Z "allegedly" asked for $8.25M/yr. These are negotiations. Hossa asked for significantly more than what he signed for as well.

Last season, Hossa outperformed Zetterberg and this season hes doing the same.

Not true on the former and I'll contend the latter as well. Hossa is way too loose with the puck coming out of our end. His turnovers have led to a few too many goals against and he's too sloppy with his D as well taking far too many penalties.

Last season, Datsyuk outperformed Zetterberg during the regular season and 75% of the playoffs

Not true on either account.

and hes making $6.7 million, along with tons of other "Franchise players" that signed after him.

Pavel signed his deal before he showed that he was capable of "franchise" level play.

Not one person has given me a solid reason as to why Z should make anything more than $7 mill per season

Might be because you've never been capable of recognizing a solid reason even if it is staring you in the face.

and "Inflation" is meaningless. Its two seasons and we're going through the worst recession in twenty years, the cap is going to decrease for at least two seasons.

I'm sure Kenny will take it into account when he looks at the market.

Using Zetterberg's current contract to justify overpaying him now is ridiculous. He took a lengthy, terrible deal, played better than expectations and was underpaid. It could have very easily went the other way and Z could have turned into a third liner making $3 mill per season.

I highly doubt Kenny will be trying to "make it up" to Z. But by the same account using Pavel's lengthy terrible deal that vastly underpays him as a benchmark is equally stupid. Things change.

Its the same thing the organization did with Kronwall and is doing with Filippula. Does that mean if Flip turned into an 80 point two-way center, the team should throw $2 million per season extra at him to make up for overpaying for his services?

No, and the team won't do so with Z either.

And Mats Sundin is worth $10 million pro-rated because hes signing with a terrible team. Hes getting paid extra to deal with the fact that hes not going to win this season. If he signed with a contender he would have dropped his price significantly.

Doubtful. On the open market Z would get ridiculous offers. You know it as well as everyone else does.

Its a simple argument, Z vs Hossa and its an obvious choice. Everyone has been waiting years for Datsyuk to get a legitment sniper on his line, all of the pipe dreams of Kovalchuk are finally here. Hossa is good for 40, 50 and maybe 60 goals with Dats.

Marian better get on his horse if he wants to score 50-60+. At his current pace he might hit what Z got last season.

If that means sacrificing a second line center than so be it,

Laughable. Wait, scratch that. Not funny at all. Sad would be a better word.

we have another center to take his place in Flip, who happens to be earning a second liners salary.


Fil is neither capable of taking over for Z, nor is he earning a 2nd liners' salary. He is being paid one (by cap hit anyway), but not yet earning it.

In your dozens of usernames you've never once managed to use reason. You're an irrational one-trick pony and that's a dead giveaway every single time.

Til we meet again...

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#51 thedisappearer

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 07:33 AM

QUOTE (VM1138 @ December 21, 2008 - 10:29PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I feel like vomiting from reading so much anti-Zetterberg stuff on a Wings message board. Disgusting. A few weeks ago he was a god among men and now he's just your average almost-star?

Wow...

Saying Hossa and/or Dats is better than Zetterberg is NOT anti-Z. It's an opinion. No one WANTS him to leave. We all love Zetterberg and want to find a way to keep him. It's just that for the first time in Red Wings history, we have to balance the cap wit h the players we have. It will break my heart if Z leaves, but if it means we keep Hossa, well, I believe the team will better. Doesn't mean I hate Zetterberg at all.
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#52 PROBIE4PREZ

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 08:52 AM

8.25 mill a season would make me vomit .. where the hell is the Home Town Discount there?!? 7.5 is a hometown discount or even 7.25 .. but 8.25 really??!?
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#53 chrisdetroit

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 08:58 AM

QUOTE (Homer4ver @ December 21, 2008 - 09:26PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lets talk about franchise players:

Datsyuk, Thornton, Crosby, Malkin, Iginla, Lidstrom, Luongo, Kovalchuk, Nash, Gaborik all make less than ten million dollars per season. All of the players listest besides, Crosby, Lidstrom and Malkin make $6.7 mill or less per season.

Everyone, including Zetterberg, Holland and yourself knows that the salary cap is going to decline next season and probably the one after that too.

If Z pushes for anything more than Hossa's $7.4 million hes delusional. The only thing that may justify a $8.5 million dollar pay check is:

- Finishing a full season
- Leading the team in scoring
- Winning a Selke
- Winning a Hart, Pearson, Conn Smyth(Again)

If none of those things happens, give me just one example of why Zetterberg is more valuable than Datsyuk or even Hossa.


You are ignoring one very important part of this. Inflation. All of the guys mentioned signed before this year. Compare that to the one franchise player that signed this year - Sundin who went for 10mil.

Any of those guys that you mention sign this year and it's gonna be for 9-10 mil

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#54 chrisdetroit

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 09:12 AM

QUOTE (PROBIE4PREZ @ December 22, 2008 - 08:52AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
8.25 mill a season would make me vomit .. where the hell is the Home Town Discount there?!? 7.5 is a hometown discount or even 7.25 .. but 8.25 really??!?


Sundin just signed for $10 mil a year. Last year Edmonton offered Hossa $10mil a year. What makes you think that Z wouldn't command 9-10 mil a year on the open market?

$8.25 is in fact a discount.

Like it or not, that's the market.

Simple economics

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#55 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 09:22 AM

QUOTE (PROBIE4PREZ @ December 22, 2008 - 08:52AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
8.25 mill a season would make me vomit .. where the hell is the Home Town Discount there?!? 7.5 is a hometown discount or even 7.25 .. but 8.25 really??!?

*Seeking* a deal in the $8.25 million range is not the same as obtaining it. First and foremost, plenty of teams would be Z $8.25 per to play for them, so lets get that out of the way first. Second, $8.25 is where Z's agent is *starting* at, which is massively different than where they'll most likely finish. The truth is no matter where Z's agent comes in initially at Kenny will then push to get him to take a home-town discount (whether he comes in at $8.25 or $7.25 for that matter). Z has been around the organization long enough to know the sacrifice those have to make to be a Red Wing and I'd be very willing to bet his deal won't have a Cap hit over $7.75 million. My guess is it'll be right around Lidstrom-type dollars.
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


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#56 Frozen-Man

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 10:06 AM

QUOTE (Homer4ver @ December 22, 2008 - 12:00AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My opinion has nothing to do with being biased, its the fact that Zetterberg has been outperformed by Datsyuk completely during his career. Datsyuk took less than hes worth to play here and hes done everything asked of him by the organization.

Zetterberg expecting 8.5 mill, even for one season is irrational and doesn't shine well on his "Next captain" moniker.

Last season, Hossa outperformed Zetterberg and this season hes doing the same.

Last season, Datsyuk outperformed Zetterberg during the regular season and 75% of the playoffs and hes making $6.7 million, along with tons of other "Franchise players" that signed after him.

Not one person has given me a solid reason as to why Z should make anything more than $7 mill per season and "Inflation" is meaningless. Its two seasons and we're going through the worst recession in twenty years, the cap is going to decrease for at least two seasons.

Using Zetterberg's current contract to justify overpaying him now is ridiculous. He took a lengthy, terrible deal, played better than expectations and was underpaid. It could have very easily went the other way and Z could have turned into a third liner making $3 mill per season.

Its the same thing the organization did with Kronwall and is doing with Filippula. Does that mean if Flip turned into an 80 point two-way center, the team should throw $2 million per season extra at him to make up for overpaying for his services?

And Mats Sundin is worth $10 million pro-rated because hes signing with a terrible team. Hes getting paid extra to deal with the fact that hes not going to win this season. If he signed with a contender he would have dropped his price significantly.

Its a simple argument, Z vs Hossa and its an obvious choice. Everyone has been waiting years for Datsyuk to get a legitment sniper on his line, all of the pipe dreams of Kovalchuk are finally here. Hossa is good for 40, 50 and maybe 60 goals with Dats. If that means sacrificing a second line center than so be it, we have another center to take his place in Flip, who happens to be earning a second liners salary.



I agree the inflation argument doesn't make much sense based upon the current circumstances. Everything is down drastically from two years ago. Furthermore, if Z should get $8M (which many have stated he should get because of inflation) that is 16.25% more than Dats got less than 2 years ago, in April of 2007. Based upon the inflation argument that makes the inflation rate roughly 8.125% per year (assuming Z doesn't sign until April of 2009 and he should be signed well before that). The inflation rate in 2007 was 2.85% and will probably be about 3.61% for 2008. That is a two year inflation total of 6.46% but people are trying to argue that inflation is the reason for a 16.25% increase in salary, which is off by about 10% (and is still not entirely accurate because inflation matters differently to different industries and when revenue is going down like it is this year there is often negative inflation within a specific market). However, if Z gets his price based off Dats contract plus inflation he gets $7.13M. I think Z will get a little more than that and maybe even closer to $8M but it won't be because of inflation it will either be because 1) management thinks he is more valuable; or 2) he won't take as big a home discount.

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#57 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 10:32 AM

QUOTE (Frozen-Man @ December 22, 2008 - 10:06AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree the inflation argument doesn't make much sense based upon the current circumstances. Everything is down drastically from two years ago. Furthermore, if Z should get $8M (which many have stated he should get because of inflation) that is 16.25% more than Dats got less than 2 years ago, in April of 2007. Based upon the inflation argument that makes the inflation rate roughly 8.125% per year (assuming Z doesn't sign until April of 2009 and he should be signed well before that). The inflation rate in 2007 was 2.85% and will probably be about 3.61% for 2008. That is a two year inflation total of 6.46% but people are trying to argue that inflation is the reason for a 16.25% increase in salary, which is off by about 10% (and is still not entirely accurate because inflation matters differently to different industries and when revenue is going down like it is this year there is often negative inflation within a specific market). However, if Z gets his price based off Dats contract plus inflation he gets $7.13M. I think Z will get a little more than that and maybe even closer to $8M but it won't be because of inflation it will either be because 1) management thinks he is more valuable; or 2) he won't take as big a home discount.

I don't think you understand what people mean by inflation in this case. They aren't referring to US economic inflation, rather they're referring to the NHL's Salary Cap inflation which has skyrocketed in excess of 15% the past two seasons.
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


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#58 Frozen-Man

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 10:48 AM

QUOTE (NeverForgetMac25 @ December 22, 2008 - 11:32AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think you understand what people mean by inflation in this case. They aren't referring to US economic inflation, rather they're referring to the NHL's Salary Cap inflation, which has skyrocketed in excess of 15% the past two seasons.


I fully understand what is meant by inflation, but the problem is the NHL's Salary Cap inflation has been spurred to it's 15% based upon a flourishing economy and economic outlook based upon late 2002 through early 2007. If you look at real inflation and economic growth charts that was a high time where the price of everything wheat, corn, gas, and even NHL contracts and salary cap. That is no longer the reality. The price of wheat, corn, gas, and even the NHL salary cap and thus contracts will be going down. Contracts were never going to be able to sustain a 7-8% increase every year. That would have them doubling roughly every 12 years. My point what that the inflation in the Salary Cap is loosely tied to real inflation. Gas prices sky rocketed earlier in the year but are down to a 5 year low because there is less demand and not near as much money in the economy to purchase it. NHL salary caps and contracts are not immune to this phenomenon, there is going to be less money to throw around next year and probably for several years after that. NHL salaries cannot maintain an inflation clip that is 2-3 times the rate of everything else in the country. The system will collapse on itself (which incidentally was a major part of the problem that led to the last lockout). The owners and management know that the NHL salary cap/contract levels are directly related to US inflation and economic outlook.

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#59 chrisdetroit

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 11:27 AM

QUOTE (NeverForgetMac25 @ December 22, 2008 - 10:32AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think you understand what people mean by inflation in this case. They aren't referring to US economic inflation, rather they're referring to the NHL's Salary Cap inflation which has skyrocketed in excess of 15% the past two seasons.


Thank you. Finally somebody else understands.

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#60 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 11:28 AM

QUOTE (Frozen-Man @ December 22, 2008 - 10:48AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I fully understand what is meant by inflation, but the problem is the NHL's Salary Cap inflation has been spurred to it's 15% based upon a flourishing economy and economic outlook based upon late 2002 through early 2007. If you look at real inflation and economic growth charts that was a high time where the price of everything wheat, corn, gas, and even NHL contracts and salary cap. That is no longer the reality. The price of wheat, corn, gas, and even the NHL salary cap and thus contracts will be going down. Contracts were never going to be able to sustain a 7-8% increase every year. That would have them doubling roughly every 12 years. My point what that the inflation in the Salary Cap is loosely tied to real inflation. Gas prices sky rocketed earlier in the year but are down to a 5 year low because there is less demand and not near as much money in the economy to purchase it. NHL salary caps and contracts are not immune to this phenomenon, there is going to be less money to throw around next year and probably for several years after that. NHL salaries cannot maintain an inflation clip that is 2-3 times the rate of everything else in the country. The system will collapse on itself (which incidentally was a major part of the problem that led to the last lockout). The owners and management know that the NHL salary cap/contract levels are directly related to US inflation and economic outlook.

"Loosely" is the key word. The fact of the matter is even if the Cap were to relatively stay close to where its at right now things are very different then when Datsyuk signed his contract. He signed a $6.7 contract when he showed no signs of playoff production and with the cap at a meager $44 million. If we assume that both Dats and Z are comparable, the NHL's salary cap inflation since that time shows that Z's contract if adjusted to current NHL economics would be in the $8 million range, *just the same as if Dats' contract was up this year.*

No one (especially myself) ever said the NHL could sustain an inflation rate 2-3 times what the rate of everything else is in this country. That wasn't the point.
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).





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