Retire #4

[jawbreaker 0]

I received a reply from Ansar Khan, and will post if he ever responds with anything further:

Hi Brett,

You make some compelling reasons for Kelly to have his number raised. I will ask Jim Devellano, next time I see him, if they ever considered it and what their reasoning was. The players I had ranked ahead of Kelly were: 1. Howe, 2. Yzerman, 3. Lidstrom, 4. Sawchuk, 5. Lindsay and 6. Delvecchio.

Ansar Khan

Rather strange order IMHO. Yzerman over Lidstrom? And it sure seems that Kelly has to be higher than #7. Top 10 dman of all-time should be higher and should be retired by the Red Wings.

I agree, that 3 players from each era is a wise choice. Plus, maybe Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the future (if they win a Cup and two, and will show the same level of play for 4-5 years).

[egroen 384]

Rather strange order IMHO. Yzerman over Lidstrom? And it sure seems that Kelly has to be higher than #7. Top 10 dman of all-time should be higher and should be retired by the Red Wings.

I agree, that 3 players from each era is a wise choice. Plus, maybe Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the future (if they win a Cup and two, and will show the same level of play for 4-5 years).

No arguments from me -- obviously Yzerman has a special place in the annals of Detroit sports, but once all his intangibles and heroics are not as fresh in everyone's mind, his overall ranking will likely fall in most Red Wings' fans minds. In terms of pure hockey accomplishments, Kelly, Lindsay and Sawchuk are better all-time. Lindsay was a warrior, a great leader and one of the most competitive players ever... but he was also one of the dirtiest ever -- but nowadays that is not talked about as much as his actual accomplishments on the ice.

Most gloss over Kelly and see that he only won one Norris in his career, without noticing that it did not exist until halfway through his prime. Looking back at All-Star votes (not for the all star game, but 1st team and 2nd team) and Hart voting will give you a very good idea of who would have won the Norris back then. Kelly is one of the few defensemen to ever receive 100% of the 1st team votes, and it is easy to see he would have had 4 Norris trophies (with two 2nd place finishes), and some would argue he would have 5.

Back then the Vezina trophy was what the Jennings trophy is nowadays (lowest GAA), so if you want to look at who would have really won what we consider the Vezina today, you also have to look at All Star votes.

Edited January 6, 2009 by egroen

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

I had not read that ... I have read the Toronto manager had plans to use him as a checker against Beliveau and the Habs and convinced him not to retire after Kelly threatened to after finding he was being traded to the Rangers by Jack Adams. Toronto ended up sending some scrub who only played like one season to Detroit for Kelly and it ended up being one of the most one-sided trades ever (Kelly helped the Leafs win 4 Cups). Jack Adams probably ended Detroit's dynasty prematurely by trading Lindsay and Kelly.

"some scrub"= Marc Reaume.

If we talk about Defencemen who changed the way the game is played, in order of career:

Doug Harvey, Leonard Kelly, Bobby Orr.

Starting in 1956-57, a player returned to the ice from serving a penalty if the opponents scored. Prior to this, the penalized player sat in the penalty box for the whole penalty, so multiple power-play goals on the same penalty were quite common. The League saw an "unfair" advantage being held by both Detroit and Montreal.

[egroen 384]

Marc Reaume ended up scoring all of two points in 47 games for Detroit. Not the best return Jack Adams ever received in a trade. Man, that guy could hold a grudge.

Some anecdotal info regarding Kelly and the trade from Detroit:

Kelly, by the late 50's was starting to slip as an all-star defenceman but he was still a great player. In the 1958-59 season, Kelly had an off year for Detroit and the Red Wings missed the playoffs with Jack Adams indirectly blaming Kelly. But Kelly was playing with a broken foot and was dismayed that Adams wouldn't have mentioned that. So, there was friction between the two.

In February of 1960, Adams traded Kelly and Bill McNeil to the Rangers for Bill Gadsby & Eddie Shack. Only Kelly wouldn't report, and retired.

Two interesting observations: Bill McNeil had just lost his wife and had young kids to look after but that didn't stop Adams from trading him away.

And, after the trade, Eddie Shack said bad things about the Rangers and had to return to NY after the trade was voided. The first time the Leafs met the Rangers after Kelly joined the Leafs, Shack took a number of runs at Kelly in retaliation for not reporting to NY and sentencing Shack to a longer stay with the Rangers.

Anyways, the Leafs decided to try to acquire Kelly but no one could no why they wanted Kelly when they had 4 top defencemen already. What isn't known is that in a practice one day, Johnny Wilson, an ex Red Wing, told Imlach that he'd bet that if Leafs offered their spare defenceman Marc Reaume to Adams, that he would take it. For some reason, Adams like Reaume. So the offer was made and Kelly became a Leaf.

Imlach didn't let on his plans to convert Kelly to centre to play against Beliveau and also to feather great passes to Frank Mahovlich. When Kelly appeared at centre, in his first game, the fans were mostly surprised. Kelly was such an outstanding player that he had no problem with the adjustment.

Its interesting that you bring up the union thing. This a whole different topic that can be discussed but Kelly and Gordie Howe, were responsible for the new players association led by Ted Lindsay to collapse because they took the Red Wings out of the association at a critical time.

It was not a moment that Kelly and especially Howe should NOT be proud of as a lot of their fellow players suffered because of their decision.

Edited January 13, 2009 by egroen

[VM1138 1,921]

Adams cleaning out the Wings roster in '57 was one of the biggest mistakes ever made in the NHL. Imagine how many more Cups we could have had, had we kept the all-stars instead of shipping them out.

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

More accurately, Kelly refused to play defense for Toronto; he agreed to play for them, but only as a forward.

Not according to Mr. Kelly, in this segment done for "Legends of Hockey: The First Season":

The Red Head.

What Mr. Kelly says is along the same line as the passage provided by egroen. I wonder if "Red" was used on a forward line when he played at St. Michael's College in junior?

The quotes from Mr. Lindsay and Mr. Howe seem to sum up their feelings and speak volumes of Mr. Kelly's importance to the DRW and to hockey, as a player.

Also:

Red Kelly.

I had forgotten that while in Toronto, he was working two jobs: hockey player and Member of Parliament.

[union drone 0]

What Kelly, Lindsay, or anyone else did after leaving the Wings has no bearing on whether they deserve to have their number hanging from the rafters. The only thing that matters is their performance as a Wing.

Retired players that could be included in the group of hanging banners who are not?

Larry Aurie, Ebbie Goodfellow, Syd Howe, Red Kelly, Jack Stewart, Norm Ullman.

Active players who have a good chance at jersey retirement upon the close of their careers?

Nick Lidstrom, Chris Osgood, Sergei Fedorov.

Beyond that, several other players were good enough for short periods, but did not play in Detroit for long enough, or are good enough players now, but have yet to play for long enough. Also a disqualification would be anyone who joined the Wings after playing for another NHL team; this rules out guys like Shanahan who were top notch players for years in Detroit.

The idea of "automatic disqualification" for players who didn't start their career in Detroit is positively SILLY!

Let's say a hypothetical player played his first 20 games for, say, the Isles, gets traded to Detroit, goes on to play 1000+ games in Wings uniform scores 500+ goals, 1000+ plus points and wins several personal awards and is critical part of a cup or two, you would automatically disqualify him??!?

[union drone 0]

I had not read that ... I have read the Toronto manager had plans to use him as a checker against Beliveau and the Habs and convinced him not to retire after Kelly threatened to after finding he was being traded to the Rangers by Jack Adams. Toronto ended up sending some scrub who only played like one season to Detroit for Kelly and it ended up being one of the most one-sided trades ever (Kelly helped the Leafs win 4 Cups). Jack Adams probably ended Detroit's dynasty prematurely by trading Lindsay and Kelly.

Although I am not at all against retiring Kelly's number, the four cups with the Leafs is a BIG mark against him, especially considering that the Leafs were a) Detroit's most hated rival, and b) two of those four Leafs Cups were won AGAINST Detroit in the Finals.

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

Larry Aurie, Ebbie Goodfellow, Syd Howe, Red Kelly, Jack Stewart, Norm Ullman.

Also a disqualification would be anyone who joined the Wings after playing for another NHL team; this rules out guys like Shanahan who were top notch players for years in Detroit.

Also Howe.

Edited February 9, 2009 by cusimano_brothers