Retire #4

[egroen 384]

Gordie Howe, alone, is the only Red Wing who is inarguably a better all-time player than Red Kelly.

I would rank Lidstrom and perhaps Sawchuk or Lindsay ahead of him, but that is it. Yzerman brought more intangibles to the team, but Kelly will easily go down as a better all-time player.

Red Kelly was a much better player than Abel and Delvecchio, and arguably better than Sawchuk and Lindsay, but for some reason his number has not been retired. The Detroit dynasty was able to win a Cup without Sawchuk (1950); they won without Abel (1954, 1955); they could win it even without Howe (1950). Only Kelly and Lindsay were the constants. However, the Wings had a great team in the late 1940s (including Lindsay) but couldn’t win their first Cup until Kelly emerged as an all-star defenseman in 1950. His ability to control both ends of the ice put them over the top. He was a Red Wings captain for two years (after Lindsay and before Howe) and was a 6-time 1st team All-Star (2-time 2nd Team).

Kelly was easily the second-best Detroit defenseman ever, behind only Lidstrom (and not behind him by much).

Red Kelly finished in the top three in Hart voting three times (1951, 1953, 1954) as well as a 4th in '56. Extrememly impressive for a defenseman. No other Wing (aside from Howe obviously) made it to the top three during the dynasty years, even once. In fact, Red Kelly alone had as many top-ten finishes as Lindsay and Sawchuk combined. He was easily the second-best defenseman of his generation and a lot closer to Doug Harvey than Harvey’s 7-1 Norris trophies would have you think. Kelly's reputation is hurt because the Norris trophy came into existence halfway through his prime. He was a unanimous first-team all-star in the three years immediately prior to the creation of the Norris, finishing immediately ahead of Harvey twice. Kelly is the equivalent of a four-time Norris winner (with two second-place finishes), which closes the gap a bit on Harvey's seven trophies.

He was easily the best offensive defenseman of his generation, distancing himself from Harvey, Gadsby, and all the others. He towered above his peers, leading all blueliners in scoring five years in a row (with three more top-three finishes). Kelly is also the best goal-scoring defenseman of his generation by a wide margin. During the 1950s, he scored 145 goals, nearly double what his closest competition accomplished (Gadsby 77, Harvey 57, Pronovost 55). Not even Bobby Orr could match Kelly's streak of leading all defense in goal-scoring eight years in a row.

Most impressively, Kelly accomplished something that was unheard of during his era: he cracked the top ten in scoring three times (1951, 1953, 1954, peaking at 6th place in the league) and was in the top ten in assists five times, peaking at 4th place.

His defensive game can be compared with Lidstrom's: very cerebral. He relied more on positioning than physical play, though ironically he was a golden gloves boxer. He was a 4-time Lady Byng winner, back when that trophy meant a lot more than it means today.

The only reason I can think his number is not retired is because he left the team on bad terms with Jack Adams. Adams forced him to play with a broken ankle in 1959, and to keep it a secret. When the Wings missed the playoffs, Kelly made a flippant remark to the media, “"I don't know, it might have been the ankle." to account for his poor play and an irate Jack Adams immediately shipped him off to Toronto (where he won another 4 Stanley Cups as a center). But Ted Lindsay had an even worse relationship with Jack Adams than the low-key and humble Kelly ever did; and of course Lindsay has his place in the rafters.

Edited December 30, 2008 by egroen

[j.hoop 64]

Gordie Howe, alone, is the only Red Wing who is inarguably a better all-time player than Red Kelly.

I would rank Lidstrom and perhaps Sawchuk or Lindsay ahead of him, but that is it. Yzerman brought more intangibles to the team, but Kelly will easily go down as a better all-time player.

Red Kelly was a much better player than Abel and Delvecchio, and arguably better than Sawchuk and Lindsay, but for some reason his number has not been retired. The Detroit dynasty was able to win a Cup without Sawchuk (1950); they won without Abel (1954, 1955); they could win it even without Howe (1950). Only Kelly and Lindsay were the constants. However, the Wings had a great team in the late 1940s (including Lindsay) but couldn’t win their first Cup until Kelly emerged as an all-star defenseman in 1950. His ability to control both ends of the ice put them over the top. He was a Red Wings captain for two years (after Lindsay and before Howe) and was a 6-time 1st team All-Star (2-time 2nd Team).

Kelly was easily the second-best Detroit defenseman ever, behind only Lidstrom (and not behind him by much).

Red Kelly finished in the top three in Hart voting three times (1951, 1953, 1954). No other Wing (aside from Howe obviously) made it to the top three during the dynasty years, even once. In fact, Red Kelly alone had as many top-ten finishes as Lindsay and Sawchuk combined. He was easily the second-best defenseman of his generation and a lot closer to Doug Harvey than Harvey’s 7-1 Norris trophies would have you think. Kelly's reputation is hurt because the Norris trophy came into existence halfway through his prime. He was a unanimous first-team all-star in the three years immediately prior to the creation of the Norris, finishing immediately ahead of Harvey twice. Kelly is the equivalent of a four-time Norris winner (with two second-place finishes), which closes the gap a bit on Harvey's seven trophies.

He was easily the best offensive defenseman of his generation, distancing himself from Harvey, Gadsby, and all the others. He towered above his peers, leading all blueliners in scoring five years in a row (with three more top-three finishes). Kelly is also the best goal-scoring defenseman of his generation by a wide margin. During the 1950s, he scored 145 goals, nearly double what his closest competition accomplished (Gadsby 77, Harvey 57, Pronovost 55). Not even Bobby Orr could match Kelly's streak of leading all defense in goal-scoring eight years in a row.

Most impressively, Kelly accomplished something that was unheard of during his era: he cracked the top ten in scoring three times (1951, 1953, 1954, peaking at 6th place in the league) and was in the top ten in assists five times, peaking at 4th place.

His defensive game can be compared with Lidstrom's: very cerebral. He relied more on positioning than physical play, though ironically he was a golden gloves boxer. He was a 4-time Lady Byng winner, back when that trophy meant a lot more than it means today.

The only reason I can think his number is not retired is because he left the team on bad terms with Jack Adams. Adams forced him to play with a broken ankle in 1959, and to keep it a secret. When the Wings missed the playoffs, Kelly made a flippant remark to the media, “"I don't know, it might have been the ankle." to account for his poor play and an irate Jack Adams immediately shipped him off to Toronto (where he won another 4 Stanley Cups as a center). But Ted Lindsay had an even worse relationship with Jack Adams than the low-key and humble Kelly ever did; and of course Lindsay has his place in the rafters.

GREAT WRITE-UP YOU DEFINITELY PROVIDE A SOLID STANCE, GET IT DONE ILLITCH!!

(SORRY IM IN CAPS IM AT WORK AND ITS STUCK THAT WAY)

[norrisnick 1]

#4 can go up during a joint ceremony with #91.

[egroen 384]

#4 can go up during a joint ceremony with #91.

I know I have advocated Fedorov as deserving of the honor, but Kelly is more on par with Lidstrom than he is with Fedorov.

[norrisnick 1]

I know I have advocated Fedorov as deserving of the honor, but Kelly is more on par with Lidstrom than he is with Fedorov.

Eh... I wouldn't go that far. Kelly, Lindsay, Fedorov, Delvecchio are about on par when you consider what they did with the Wings and without the Wings. Fats gets a bit of a bump because he was a lifer even though he wasn't as good as the other three at his peak. If Stevie wasn't captain for 20 years his contributions would likely fall in that same category, but he holds the ultimate trump card.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Egroen, you make some very substantial points and when you do something like that it is very hard to argue against. One thing I would really like to see is a cited article where Illitch states why his number is not up in the rafters. I hope this doesn't turn into another thread that people go back and forth why Fedorov or Shanny or Cheli or Draper or Ozzie or (insert players who won the cup with Detroit during the late 90s early 00's) deserves to be in the rafters.

How long have you wanted to post something like this Egroen?

[norrisnick 1]

Ilitch hasn't commented on taking #6 OUT of the rafters. I highly doubt he's said anything with regards to putting #4 in them.

[egroen 384]

Eh... I wouldn't go that far. Kelly, Lindsay, Fedorov, Delvecchio are about on par when you consider what they did with the Wings and without the Wings. Fats gets a bit of a bump because he was a lifer even though he wasn't as good as the other three at his peak. If Stevie wasn't captain for 20 years his contributions would likely fall in that same category, but he holds the ultimate trump card.

Kelly, Sawchuk and Lindsay are about on par; amongst the best all-time at their positions.

I have Fedorov, Delvecchio and Abel at a level right below.

Ilitch retired Delvecchio and Lindsay in 91, Sawchuk in 94 and Abel in 95.

Red Kelly is still alive, and has been admitted to the Hall of Fame as well as had his jersey "honored"by the Maple Leafs - could this be the reason Illitch never retired his number? Simply because it was honored elsewhere?

Edited December 30, 2008 by egroen

[egroen 384]

How long have you wanted to post something like this Egroen?

A while

There are three pretty distinct eras of Red Wings' success, and it would be nice to see that history honored in the rafters. None of the players from the first two Cups are up there (despite Aurie's jersey having been officially retired decades ago), and I think they should get some representation like the latest Cup teams will with Yzerman and Lidstrom.

[norrisnick 1]

Kelly, Sawchuk and Lindsay are about on par; amongst the best all-time at their positions.

I have Fedorov, Delvecchio and Abel at a level right below.

Ilitch retired Delvecchio and Lindsay in 91, Sawchuk in 94 and Abel in 95.

Red Kelly is still alive, and has been admitted to the Hall of Fame as well as had his jersey retired by the Maple Leafs - could this be the reason Illitch never retired his number? Simply because it was retired elsewhere?

Kelly and Sawchuk had a lot of success elsewhere after their Red Wing career and LW is a historically weak position so Lindsay being the 2nd best ever isn't quite as impressive as being among the best centers, defensemen, or goalies. Fedorov is every bit as good as Lindsay was.

If you rank only Red Wing achievements Fedorov is right there with them.

Using the logic of Kelly not being up there, Sawchuk almost shouldn't be either. And with Abel up there guys like Goodfellow should as well. It's almost as if they picked the marquee guys of the 50s dynasty (with the exception of Kelly which is odd) and we'll see if they do the same of the 90s/00s heyday. At the very least Nick and Sergei should join Stevie. The three pillars.

[Reds4Life 51]

Totally agree, 3rd best Red Wings player (after Gordie and Lids) ever imho.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Reds4Life

[egroen 384]

Kelly and Sawchuk had a lot of success elsewhere after their Red Wing career and LW is a historically weak position so Lindsay being the 2nd best ever isn't quite as impressive as being among the best centers, defensemen, or goalies. Fedorov is every bit as good as Lindsay was.

If you rank only Red Wing achievements Fedorov is right there with them.

Using the logic of Kelly not being up there, Sawchuk almost shouldn't be either. And with Abel up there guys like Goodfellow should as well. It's almost as if they picked the marquee guys of the 50s dynasty (with the exception of Kelly which is odd) and we'll see if they do the same of the 90s/00s heyday. At the very least Nick and Sergei should join Stevie. The three pillars.

From your original comment I thought you were saying Kelly's jersey deserves to be retired just as soon as Fedorov's does IE. NEVER -- I forgot you were also in favor of Fedorov's jersey being retired (I take a lot of crap for that).

Lindsay was not just one of the best LWers ever (admittedly the weakest position throughout the NHL's history), but one of the best forwards ever. He has an Art Ross and has been top ten in the league in points 8 times; also lead the league in goals once with ten years in the top 10 for goals. I think he is still the only forward ever to lead the league in points, goals, assists and PIM (though not all in one season, of course). Fedorov's prime was just too short to contend with that, and though Fedorov is clearly better defensively, both were playoff monsters.

Ultimately, I would like to see the following guys have their jerseys retired:

Early Cup Years

Larry Aurie (officially retired in '38, unretired by Illitch)

Syd Howe

Ebbie Goodfellow

Dynasty Years

Add Kelly

Modern Years

Add Lidstrom and Fedorov to Yzerman's jersey.

That's 3 each from the early and modern years -- which seems appropriate and not excessive.

[Vincanni 1]

Damn, after reading all that I definitely have to agree, seems the offensive Defensemen was immensely underrated at the time. Could also be some sort of Red Wing dynasty curse where for some reason or another an integral part of each team is left from the banners, with this one's possibly being Fedorov assuming the collective sentiment towards him subsides. Granted most casual fans I know still practically hate the guy.

[egroen 384]

Incidently, the Norris family created the Norris Trophy after James Norris' death largely because of Red Kelly's play. It was fitting he won it the first year it was ever presented. He received a lot of recognition back in the day, it's just been over the past couple decades he has been overlooked.

I've emailed Ansar Khan (who has Kelly as his #7 Red Wing of all time - I also asked for an explanation of that) and asked him to bring it up some time if he gets a chance. I'd love to have him ask about Larry Aurie as well, but that would be cruel and possibly get him kicked off the beat, for whatever strange reason.

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

Howe, Lindsay, Sawchuk. Check. Of the "retired players", Kelly deserves the honour. When he landed in Toronto, "Punch" Imlach moved him to Centre and, from there, made Senator Frank Mahovlich into a star.

Howie Young, Bob Baun, Terry Murray, Colin Campbell and Uwe Krupp were among many who wore #4 after Kelly.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Missed this when it was originally put up here, but a damn fine and convincing argument you make, egroen.

[HadThomasVokounOnFortSt 878]

You brought up a good point. I think we should retire number 4.

[eva unit zero 271]

What Kelly, Lindsay, or anyone else did after leaving the Wings has no bearing on whether they deserve to have their number hanging from the rafters. The only thing that matters is their performance as a Wing.

Retired players that could be included in the group of hanging banners who are not?

Larry Aurie, Ebbie Goodfellow, Syd Howe, Red Kelly, Jack Stewart, Norm Ullman.

Active players who have a good chance at jersey retirement upon the close of their careers?

Nick Lidstrom, Chris Osgood, Sergei Fedorov.

Beyond that, several other players were good enough for short periods, but did not play in Detroit for long enough, or are good enough players now, but have yet to play for long enough. Also a disqualification would be anyone who joined the Wings after playing for another NHL team; this rules out guys like Shanahan who were top notch players for years in Detroit.

[VM1138 1,921]

Eh... I wouldn't go that far. Kelly, Lindsay, Fedorov, Delvecchio are about on par when you consider what they did with the Wings and without the Wings. Fats gets a bit of a bump because he was a lifer even though he wasn't as good as the other three at his peak. If Stevie wasn't captain for 20 years his contributions would likely fall in that same category, but he holds the ultimate trump card.

The NHL players that Kelly played with all considered him the greatest defenseman and the one of the best all-around players to play in the game. He deserves any recognition he can get.

[VM1138 1,921]

Damn, after reading all that I definitely have to agree, seems the offensive Defensemen was immensely underrated at the time. Could also be some sort of Red Wing dynasty curse where for some reason or another an integral part of each team is left from the banners, with this one's possibly being Fedorov assuming the collective sentiment towards him subsides. Granted most casual fans I know still practically hate the guy.

It certainly was. At the time, defensemen were almost always stay-at-home. Kelly was revolutionary, I wish I could have seen him play.

[eva unit zero 271]

Howe, Lindsay, Sawchuk. Check. Of the "retired players", Kelly deserves the honour. When he landed in Toronto, "Punch" Imlach moved him to Centre and, from there, made Senator Frank Mahovlich into a star.

More accurately, Kelly refused to play defense for Toronto; he agreed to play for them, but only as a forward.

[egroen 384]

More accurately, Kelly refused to play defense for Toronto; he agreed to play for them, but only as a forward.

I had not read that ... I have read the Toronto manager had plans to use him as a checker against Beliveau and the Habs and convinced him not to retire after Kelly threatened to after finding he was being traded to the Rangers by Jack Adams. Toronto ended up sending some scrub who only played like one season to Detroit for Kelly and it ended up being one of the most one-sided trades ever (Kelly helped the Leafs win 4 Cups). Jack Adams probably ended Detroit's dynasty prematurely by trading Lindsay and Kelly.

Edited January 6, 2009 by egroen

[Yzersyukstromberg 0]

What a great thread...

There are a few Wings that come to mind for me when it comes to jerseys that need to be retired, but I agree with all above...Kelly's #4 should be hanging in the rafters.

A player like Nick Lidstrom is a given, he'll get the same treatment Stevie did upon his retirement, with a ceremony the next season...

Others like Ozzy and Fedorov deserve consideration, but like a few people mentioned in earlier posts, there's still several outstanding players from the early Red Wings cup teams that deserve consideration as well.

I am all for honouring players who made huge contributions to the Red Wings organization, but at the same time, I'm not sure I want us to be just like the Canadiens and retire so many numbers that current players are forced to wear oddball numbers. I like the fact the a jersey retirement in Detroit remains the 'highest honour' and hope that whatever jerseys get retired in the upcoming years follow that trend....

Just my humble opinion...

[egroen 384]

I received a reply from Ansar Khan, and will post if he ever responds with anything further:

Hi Brett,

You make some compelling reasons for Kelly to have his number raised. I will ask Jim Devellano, next time I see him, if they ever considered it and what their reasoning was. The players I had ranked ahead of Kelly were: 1. Howe, 2. Yzerman, 3. Lidstrom, 4. Sawchuk, 5. Lindsay and 6. Delvecchio.

Ansar Khan

[norrisnick 1]

The NHL players that Kelly played with all considered him the greatest defenseman and the one of the best all-around players to play in the game. He deserves any recognition he can get.

“They always talk about Bobby Orr as being the greatest defenseman who ever played, and I wouldn’t take anything away from him. He changed hockey. He became the mobile defenseman, tremendous player. But Harvey was still a better hockey player. When you look at Harvey, he had (Jean Beliveau), (Rocket) Richard, (Henri) Richard, Bert Olmstead, Boom Geoffrion, and yet when (Montreal) got on the power play, he was the maestro. He controlled every one of those guys."

-Ted Lindsay