Franzen or Hossa?

[TheOwl 77]

Holland didn't seem to convinced the he would get Hank signed. Maybe he is thinking what I am thinking, Hossa and Mule for the win. To me it's not between Mule and Hossa, it's between Z and Hossa. The Mule is a must.

I agree, I have a feeling Franzen will take something like 4 million a season. But really, losing Zetterberg is unimaginable. Detroit made this man, he's ours! Must keep the Swedes!

[Zune 0]

Keep both, let Zetterberg walk.

Two four goal scorers > One 35 goal scorer who won't take the sniper role unless paired with Datsyuk.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Franzen isn't the same type player as Hossa. We have a couple "Hossa" type players on the team already, but we only have one "Mule" type player. And he's ******* amazing at what he does!

With that said, I think Franzen and Hossa are tied with points... and I think Franzen scored more goals than Hossa in the playoffs last year. (and Hossa was on 'the best line in the world' --says Barry Melrose =)

Hossa and Franzen are both big power forwards with great hands. Have you seen hossa use his body?

I honestly will say I think I'd choose franzen and hossa over franzen and zetterberg....but it would be horrible to play against him.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

The sooner you trade Flip, the better. A guy like Filppula has the potential to be very valuable to quite a few teams. And as of now, teams are likely going to look at Flip's numbers, then look at the Wings depth and figure he could be much more valuable to their team than he is to the Wings. And I think Detroit's reputation for developing players precedes them. In the past few years, teams who have landed the Wings young players have gotten great value. Think Matthias and Quincey.

Oh would you just give it a break already, you're sounding really repetitive.

[Lilja 0]

Hossa is a rental. He wants one shot of the cup this year. He was only signed because there was room to do it this season. I see him only as a bonus and something tells me the intentions were never anything else.

Hossa will sign elsewhere for at least 8,5 in a team with capspace.

Detroit fans are just a tad bit too spoiled...

[chrisdetroit 189]

I am shocked that the LGW posters have so rapidly jumped on the keep Franzen bandwagon.

The season is less than half over so it's a little early to say who is playing better. Hoss or Mule.

Hossa is more talented than Franzen but it is looking like Mule is a slower developer. Both Hossa and Mule are about the same age but Mule looks like he is still improving. I think that Hossa is at his peak.

I'd be surprised if Kenny shopped Flip. He just signed him long term and he has so far been underachieving. The way he has been producing so far this year, I'd be surprised if another team would be willing to give him the $3mil per year. I like Flip and I think he has great potential but for various reasons, he isn't getting it done so far this year.

Z will be signed long term. This is a sure thing. A couple of weeks ago, they were getting close.

Hossa is not going to sign for less than what he makes now. That is just unrealistic.

I'd be surprised if Huds gets an offer sheet. I say this because there were only what 2? 3? offer sheets all of last year in the entire league. There are lots of other RFA's that I'd tender an offer to before Huds. He's very talented but unfortunately, he's small. Not many teams will be interested.

As I said, just my opinions.

[RWK23 0]

Keep both, let Zetterberg walk.

Two four goal scorers > One 35 goal scorer who won't take the sniper role unless paired with Datsyuk.

Wow, four posts and they all bash either Lidstrom or Zetterberg. Not a great way to endear yourself to the regulars around here.

Yeah, let's throw away all team loyalty and keep a rental (a great one, yes, but still a rental) over a future captain and Conn Smythe winner. Right...

[Datsyerberger 279]

Ultimately, this thread should be titled -Zetterberg- or Hossa. It will be very difficult to keep both AND preserve depth, and a Babcock coached Red Wings is all about depth. That said, keeping Z is a given. He's great, homebrewed talent, and by far our best option for future captain. Here's our alternate choices for captain:

Draper: Long time Wing and alternate, doesn't have enough minutes to be captain, imo.. and he'll probably retire around the same time as Lidstrom.

Datsyuk: *Insert bad call* Ref! Ref! Ahtrussmaheye tu doctor mamani! -- Seriously though, I think he's our 2nd best choice, but due to his English nervousness in public... Well, if we didn't have Z, he's who I'd take anyhow.

That's really it. There's noone on the team that's earned the C above Datsyuk, besides Zetterberg. We COULD live without Z, but I don't see it happening.

Now, a more interesting situation: Who are the As in a coupla years? Here's what I think (Assuming Lidstrom and Draper retire, and Z is C)

Datsyuk

Rafalski (he'll be our #1 D-man if we keep him)

Kronwall or Franzen? Both consistent players that can speak good English.

3 As assumes rotation.

On another note, can you imagine Homer as an Alternate? (Imagine Swedish Chef voice) *Insert bad call* "Ref! See da pooka? Pooka shoota off da pointa, deflecta Homer stick and in-a. Homer step-a in da creasa, out da creasa, in da creasa, out da creasa, out da crease ven pook deflecta. Reffa is bad call a-makin, Homer shoot da goal a-countin'... bork bork bork!"

But anyhow, here is my very, very optimistic prediction for the roster next year, based on results thus far. This is assuming Z takes a pay cut for both his performance this year -and- because of the cap situation (let's say that the economy stabilizes a little and the cap doesn't move up or down). I'm also being optimistic with a couple contracts here.. since I'm a fan, and not a GM, I might as well be optimistic. These are also the lines I'd like to see, assuming everyone performs like we'd want them to.

Datsyuk (6.7) - Zetterberg (7.0 -- I said very optimistic, dammit!) - Homer (2.25)

Franzen (3.0) - Hudler (3.0) - Leino (.9) -- Yep, I'm being very optimistic with Franzen + Hudler. Edit: And with Leino.

Kopecky (.6) - Helm (.6) - Cleary (2.85) -- Or Cleary on the 2nd line if Babs isn't ready for Leino on the 2nd.

Maltby (.88) - Draper (1.58) - Meech (.5) -- Meech has shown himself to be a capable grinding forward. Possibly keep Kopecky on the 4th line and put him on the 3rd with Helm? That'd be fast. That got me thinking of a VERY fast alternate 3rd (plus alternate 4th)

Helm - Draper - Meech. Zooooooooom!

Maltby - Cleary - Kopecky -- I don't see Cleary being on the 4th as a permanent line, but you might see something like this happen after the end of a PK shift for Cleary, or if Cleary or one of the top 6 is injured (in which case Cleary gets moved up)

Downey OR Mac (.5) -- Meech goes on D if more than 1 D-man is out or performing poorly, and the 'enforcer' becomes the 12th forward. I honestly think Holland is keeping Downey in the system 'til Mac retires, making sure Downey has atleast a two-way contract in the AHL, so he can play out as the Wings enforcer once our situation becomes less messy. I just have a gut feeling that the Wings don't intend on ditching him (Though usually when I have a gut feeling, it means a long day on the John)

Lidstrom (7.4) - Raffi (6)

Stuart (3.75) - Kronwall (3)

Lilja (1.2) - Big Rig! (.9?) -- Possible rotation of him and other defensive prospects, to see who does best in the big game.

Lebda (.65)

There's a possibility Cheli remains in the system. I mean, he is Cheli. If the Wings have kept him up 'til this point, and he wants to continue playing, there's a good chance he'll have a job. I may be in a minority here, but I personally believe that the leadership, defensive know-how, and loyalty he brings is worth a small hit, even if he only plays part of the time. Let's say (.6). That makes it a full 23 man roster. The Wings have the flexibility to play with a 22 man roster (with both Meech and Big Rig who can play forward) to avoid putting someone on LTIR if they take a minor injury -- and if its anyone on the 4th line/reserve besides Draper who takes a minor injury, they put them on LTIR and call up a prospect for some ice time.

Ozzie (1.4)

Howard (.75) -- This is assuming Howard plays well enough to get a chance, and that they decide Larsson could use another year of development.

PP players: Z, Dats, Homer, Lidstrom, Raffy, Kronwall, Stuart? Big Rig? Leino? Hudler, Franzen, and maybe Cleary. That's a scary good selection.

PK players: Z, Dats, Lidstrom, Kronwall, Stuart, Lilja, Cleary, Franzen, Draper, Maltby, Helm?, Cheli if he's on the roster. That's a pretty nice selection, too.

Another Edit: Unless Filppula starts kicking ass, we don't lose much by trading him off for a pick. We have a plethora of PK and PP specialists, and a wealth of capable 2nd liners AND centers. He seems more and more and more to be the odd man out unless Hudler really starts to suck or Flip really owns.

With Cheli, that's a 23 man roster. The price tag?

56.06 -- That's damned close. I think some of those .5 contracts are actually .45, and Big Rig's might be .85, so I'm not sure on that. By god, that might work! And it most certainly does if you keep the 23rd man in GR. Alternate chances for Helm, Ericsson, and any other worthy players to get ice time.

Franzen & Hudler 3, Z 7? Git r done, Kenny!

(We can hope)

Edited December 31, 2008 by The Wheeled Winger

[Zune 0]

Wow, four posts and they all bash either Lidstrom or Zetterberg. Not a great way to endear yourself to the regulars around here.

Yeah, let's throw away all team loyalty and keep a rental (a great one, yes, but still a rental) over a future captain and Conn Smythe winner. Right...

Before this season, Hossa outperformed Zetterberg. During this season, Hossa has outperformed Zetterberg. If we had a choice between drafting Zetterberg or Hossa, everyone would have wanted Hossa.

Hes the exact player we've been lacking since Shanahan started playing a soft mans game.

Zetterberg at this point is redundant and as the stats show, hes done nothing to suggest that he should be paid more than Datsyuk or Lidstrom.

And its not bashing Lidstrom, its just another case of a player being overrated by a fan base who still can't comprehend going from an eighty million dollar pay roll to a fifty million dollar pay roll.

If you're going to spend $7 + million on a player, he should be able to pot 40 goals, regardless of position.

Everyone suggests that Lidstrom runs the PP but its cleary Datsyuk. Datsyuk hold the puck, Datsyuk makes backhand passes from the goal line, makes ridiculous passes to an open Lidstrom or Rafalski.

Theres no one suggesting that Lidstrom isn't a great defender but hes a defensive defenseman who happens to play on a great offensive minded team. Take Holmstrom or Datsyuk out of the equation and his production on the offensive end would drop drastically. And this is the same guy people wanted to throw $10 million at when the cap increased.

Kronwall looked just fine replacing him on the PP, so maybe the legend of Lidstrom is in fact a result of never getting injured and coinicidently the one time he actually did get hurt, so did the rest of the D corps so the team blew, which was instantly blamed on Lidstrom being sidelined.

The fact is, until now we've never seen a team without Lidstrom but with a remaining, strong, defensive group. Personally, I hope he misses multiple games, just to show that he is human after all and that a defenseman, even a multiple Norris winner, isn't more valuable than a forward.

[lets go pavel 2]

Before this season, Hossa outperformed Zetterberg. During this season, Hossa has outperformed Zetterberg. If we had a choice between drafting Zetterberg or Hossa, everyone would have wanted Hossa.

Hes the exact player we've been lacking since Shanahan started playing a soft mans game.

Zetterberg at this point is redundant and as the stats show, hes done nothing to suggest that he should be paid more than Datsyuk or Lidstrom.

And its not bashing Lidstrom, its just another case of a player being overrated by a fan base who still can't comprehend going from an eighty million dollar pay roll to a fifty million dollar pay roll.

If you're going to spend $7 + million on a player, he should be able to pot 40 goals, regardless of position.

Everyone suggests that Lidstrom runs the PP but its cleary Datsyuk. Datsyuk hold the puck, Datsyuk makes backhand passes from the goal line, makes ridiculous passes to an open Lidstrom or Rafalski.

Theres no one suggesting that Lidstrom isn't a great defender but hes a defensive defenseman who happens to play on a great offensive minded team. Take Holmstrom or Datsyuk out of the equation and his production on the offensive end would drop drastically. And this is the same guy people wanted to throw $10 million at when the cap increased.

Kronwall looked just fine replacing him on the PP, so maybe the legend of Lidstrom is in fact a result of never getting injured and coinicidently the one time he actually did get hurt, so did the rest of the D corps so the team blew, which was instantly blamed on Lidstrom being sidelined.

The fact is, until now we've never seen a team without Lidstrom but with a remaining, strong, defensive group. Personally, I hope he misses multiple games, just to show that he is human after all and that a defenseman, even a multiple Norris winner, isn't more valuable than a forward.

WTF??? I don't even know where to begin ... Zetterberg is redundant? First of all, I don't think any GM in the league would complain about having too many Zetterbergs. Hossa has 3 more goals than Z, even on assists. Z centers a line, Z is a top PKer and usually the 1st guy out when we're down 2 men. They are different players, but you are drastically underestimating what Z brings to the team.

And Lidstrom is overrrated because he stays healthy? That may be the dumbest thing I have read on these boards. And his numbers are only good because he plays on an "offensive-minded" team?? Most of the teams in the league are "offensive-minded", why don't they have D-men putting up those types of numbers? And don't tell me it's all because of Pavel and Homer, he was putting up great numbers long before either of them became a significant contributor ...

Edited December 31, 2008 by lets go pavel

[Datsyerberger 279]

Zetterberg is the clear-cut future captain and he's our top PK forward, while putting up PPGish points. Hossa is good, maybe even a bit better than Z on everything but defensive end (and only a slight but respectable edge to Z there), but he's not a captaincy candidate and he's going to require more money than Z in a situation that's already gonna be a cap pain in the ass.

As for Lidstrom.. yes, he's a defensive defenseman, possibly the best in that aspect of all time. It just happens that he's a defensive defenseman that's also got world class offensive talent.

Edit: It's also worth noting that Z is a center and Hossa is not, something that generally = extra value in today's league. He's also a quite above average face-off man

Edited December 31, 2008 by The Wheeled Winger

[Zune 0]

WTF??? I don't even know where to begin ... Zetterberg is redundant? First of all, I don't think any GM in the league would complain about having too many Zetterbergs. Hossa has 3 more goals than Z, even on assists. Z centers a line, Z is a top PKer and usually the 1st guy out when we're down 2 men. They are different players, but you are drastically underestimating what Z brings to the team.

And Lidstrom is overrrated because he stays healthy? That may be the dumbest thing I have read on these boards. And his numbers are only good because he plays on an "offensive-minded" team?? Most of the teams in the league are "offensive-minded", why don't they have D-men putting up those types of numbers? And don't tell me it's all because of Pavel and Homer, he was putting up great numbers long before either of them became a significant contributor ...

You're deliberately taking things out of context because you can't actually defend your points. Lidstrom is overrated because we've never seen this team play without him for a long period of time, EXCEPT 06-07 when every defenseman was injured and Lilja was our #1 guy. That was used as the "Doom and gloom" aspect of losing Lidstrom.

Honestly, I don't think this team will miss a beat when Lidstrom retires. This isn't 2002, his role on the PP is much different, he takes wrist shots for Homer to tip, as opposed to standing on the right point and ripping them glove side.

These same arguments happened at the thought of losing Yzerman before Datsyuk and Zetterberg came around. Guess what? The team kept on moving and perform at a higher level than even the 2002 team. You can't throw your entire bankroll at the feet of a 35 + year old player, even Nick Lidstrom.

The entire concept of "Loyalty" and holding onto players past their worth is what ruins prospects and leads to having tons of RFA because they spend four years in the minors waiting for a spot that a veteran is keeping warm.

The payroll bar should be Datsyuk, until he is outperformed, no one should get paid higher.

[Datsyerberger 279]

Everyone suggests that Lidstrom runs the PP but its cleary Datsyuk. Datsyuk hold the puck, Datsyuk makes backhand passes from the goal line, makes ridiculous passes to an open Lidstrom or Rafalski.

While that's not entirely true, you could make a respectable argument that it is indeed becoming more and more so. Though I disagree with the majority of your points on Lidstrom in the rest of the post, this is actually an interesting argument worth looking at. Datsyuk, in my opinion, is one of the most offensively undervalued players in the league (even though he is quite well respected). The -only- person I'd currently put ahead of him as a playmaking passer is Big Joe, and Datsyuk is more valuable defensively (and very underrated physically, given his performance since the playoffs last season). I'm calling him dead even with Crosby, which I know I'll catch homer-hell for, but that's my personal gauging of performance with the opinion that the West is, in general, more defensively responsible than the East. Crosby is a frigging beastly strong skater (though not as agile as Dats), and a better goalscorer, though (though not by a whole lot). Feel free to rip me a new one on this without fear of reciprocation, because I'm not going to turn this into one of THOSE threads, just evaluating Datsyuk's skills--and I believe Thornton and Crosby to be the only 2 at or above his level.

[Zune 0]

Zetterberg is the clear-cut future captain and he's our top PK forward, while putting up PPGish points. Hossa is good, maybe even a bit better than Z on everything but defensive end (and only a slight but respectable edge to Z there), but he's not a captaincy candidate and he's going to require more money than Z in a situation that's already gonna be a cap pain in the ass.

As for Lidstrom.. yes, he's a defensive defenseman, possibly the best in that aspect of all time. It just happens that he's a defensive defenseman that's also got world class offensive talent.

Edit: It's also worth noting that Z is a center and Hossa is not, something that generally = extra value in today's league. He's also a quite above average face-off man

Except the fact that Datsyuk is the better faceoff man, always has been. Everytime the team needs a goal with the goalie pulled, Datsyuk or Draper take the faceoff.

Ive yet to hear one decent argument for Zetteberg being a better captain "Cadidate" over Datsyuk or anyone else on the team. English has nothing to do with it, Datsyuk talks, screams and ******* at the refs more frequently than Z, fights, blocks more shots and scores more points. Hes everything Zetterberg is but better, yet he can't be captain because Zetterberg can speak slightly more clearly? Idiotic

If Z didn't take his terrible five year deal making $2.6 milion, this wouldn't be a discussion. Z took his market value at the time and now he looks like a hero because he outperfromed his contract(A bad decision on his part).

The only way I would automatically appoint Z next captain would be if he took a long term deal for the same cash as Datsyuk. If he is expecting $8 million than thats not leadership, its greed.

[Datsyerberger 279]

Except the fact that Datsyuk is the better faceoff man, always has been. Everytime the team needs a goal with the goalie pulled, Datsyuk or Draper take the faceoff.

That's not entirely true. Zetterberg has consistently taken more faceoffs than Datsyuk per season while putting up a similar percentage (cue eva with numbers, go go go). Datsyuk is the one to take the faceoffs in those particular situations for 2 reasons: he's the team's best playmaking center, and he's unparalleled at stripping the puck in the offensive zone. Draper gets those situations because he's a demi-deity in the faceoff circle.

Zetterberg is the superior player on the PK, which I see you didn't argue.

The reason that clear english is important for the captain is because he frequently has to act as the spokesman and face of the franchise. Datsyuk's english is fine for bitching at the refs, and that's one of the primary functions of alternates: ***** at ref. You'll notice that Datsyuk does it more often than Lidstrom, and Lidstrom is our current captain (Lids has that great condescending head-shake, though. Has anyone else noticed that? It reminds me of this: http://ronpaulsaysno.ytmnd.com/ ) Lidstrom also speaks excellent English and is generally calm and cool--an aspect in which Z is very similar.

I'm not going to argue over intangibles. They are largely a matter of opinion from the perspective of a fan like me who isn't in the locker room or on the bench, so I'll state my opinion that Z is superior in this regard. However, Datsyuk is hands down my favorite player of the two.

Edit: It's worth noting that Datsyuk's current contract is one that was generally considered over-valued in a league where the cap was considerably lower than it is now. Compared to contracts for player of his caliber in the league now, he's severely underpaid. If Z takes the same money that Dats makes, I will worship the ground he stands on.

Edited December 31, 2008 by The Wheeled Winger

[StormJH1 231]

And its not bashing Lidstrom, its just another case of a player being overrated by a fan base who still can't comprehend going from an eighty million dollar pay roll to a fifty million dollar pay roll.

If you're going to spend $7 + million on a player, he should be able to pot 40 goals, regardless of position.

Everyone suggests that Lidstrom runs the PP but its cleary Datsyuk. Datsyuk hold the puck, Datsyuk makes backhand passes from the goal line, makes ridiculous passes to an open Lidstrom or Rafalski.

Theres no one suggesting that Lidstrom isn't a great defender but hes a defensive defenseman who happens to play on a great offensive minded team. Take Holmstrom or Datsyuk out of the equation and his production on the offensive end would drop drastically. And this is the same guy people wanted to throw $10 million at when the cap increased.

Kronwall looked just fine replacing him on the PP, so maybe the legend of Lidstrom is in fact a result of never getting injured and coinicidently the one time he actually did get hurt, so did the rest of the D corps so the team blew, which was instantly blamed on Lidstrom being sidelined.

The fact is, until now we've never seen a team without Lidstrom but with a remaining, strong, defensive group. Personally, I hope he misses multiple games, just to show that he is human after all and that a defenseman, even a multiple Norris winner, isn't more valuable than a forward.

Wow, I guess "Zune" is an appropriate screen name for you, since your entire argument froze up and crashed right from the get-go.

I don't an Avalanche fan circa 1997 would've gone as negative on some of the Red Wings as you just did on Lidstrom. The guy is multiple Norris winner and sure-fire H of F'er...clearly it's not only the delusions of Red Wings fans that have led to his reputation.

The argument that "we've never known how good the Wings could be without Lidstrom, ergo, he probably isn't that important is absurd." Aside from the fact that Lidstrom WAS injured down the stretch against Colorado last season, and the Wings DID struggle, what team are you watching? I'm not even sure that someone demanding that their defenseman scores "40 goals" has even been watching the NHL since Paul Coffey played for the Oilers.

And I don't know where this notion that Lidstrom isn't a great offensive defenseman comes from, exactly. Watch a hockey team like the Minnesota Wild, as I'm forced to do nowadays on a pretty regular basis, and you'll appreciate why the Wings have such a superior powerplay to other teams in the league. I don't care if it's Franzen, Holmstrom, or Dino Freakin' Ciccarelli cleaning up garbage on the doorstep--that powerplay is ENTIRELY focused on getting the puck to Lidstrom at the point, so that he can either shoot or draw enough attention to free up Datsyuk or Zetterberg on the boards.

Jeez.

[Datsyerberger 279]

Wow, I guess "Zune" is an appropriate screen name for you, since your entire argument froze up and crashed right from the get-go.

Hahaha, that's f***in' brutal. Ouch, man.

(Don't get discouraged, Zune -- its a tough crowd here)

[Zune 0]

That's not entirely true. Zetterberg has consistently taken more faceoffs than Datsyuk per season while putting up a similar percentage (cue eva with numbers, go go go). Datsyuk is the one to take the faceoffs in those particular situations for 2 reasons: he's the team's best playmaking center, and he's unparalleled at stripping the puck in the offensive zone. Draper gets those situations because he's a demi-deity in the faceoff circle.

Zetterberg is the superior player on the PK, which I see you didn't argue.

The reason that clear english is important for the captain is because he frequently has to act as the spokesman and face of the franchise. Datsyuk's english is fine for bitching at the refs, and that's one of the primary functions of alternates: ***** at ref. You'll notice that Datsyuk does it more often than Lidstrom, and Lidstrom is our current captain (Lids has that great condescending head-shake, though. Has anyone else noticed that? It reminds me of this: http://ronpaulsaysno.ytmnd.com/ ) Lidstrom also speaks excellent English and is generally calm and cool--an aspect in which Z is very similar.

I'm not going to argue over intangibles. They are largely a matter of opinion from the perspective of a fan like me who isn't in the locker room or on the bench, so I'll state my opinion that Z is superior in this regard. However, Datsyuk is hands down my favorite player of the two.

Edit: It's worth noting that Datsyuk's current contract is one that was generally considered over-valued in a league where the cap was considerably lower than it is now. Compared to contracts for player of his caliber in the league now, he's severely underpaid. If Z takes the same money that Dats makes, I will worship the ground he stands on.

The cap was going to be 52 million the year Datsyuk signed, its going to be $56 million next season and less the following season.

And some, scratch that, most would argue that the problem with the Wings is that they don't have an exciting standout player that attracts fans to the game.

1. Datsyuk is funny and consistently the best interview on the team. Watch his Selke and Byng winning speeches from last season for evidence.

2. Nick Lidstrom is efficient and could possibly be the best at what he does but hes boring. He plays a boring style, hes a boring interview and hes too safe.

3. Datsyuk is a highlight reel player, even on a national scale. He hits more and fights.

Zetterberg or Lidstrom's ability to verbalize hockey cliche's says nothing of their leadership ability.

Why does everyone love an Ovechkin interview? Because hes funny, he speaks broken engrish and hes an amazing offensive force. Does anyone actually care about hearing Sidney Crosby, Jerome Iginla or Joe Thornton talk? They all sound the same and all read the same book of canned NHL responses.

As far as Zetterberg being the superior player on the PK, thats up for debate. Datsyuk gets the majority of his take aways in the defensive zone, along the boards. How many times a game do you see him skating in his own zone with two or three players on him and he makes a pass to get it out of the zone?

Zetterberg is the "Safe" defensive player. He doesn't make mistakes but he doesn't take risks either. Its the risk that allows Datsyuk and Hossa to have odd man rushes on the PK. Or allows Datsyuk to strip the puck and get rid of it.

Its really an argument of whether or not you prefer passive or aggressive defense. And really, arguing which of the two is a better defensive player is pointless. Datsyuk has a Selke, nothing will change that. The only arguments ive ever seen in the past regarding that is posters who think Z should have won because they prefer his style.

Faceoffs taken over the last three seasons-

Z:

2636 taken, won 54%

Datsyuk:

2303 taken, won 56%

Penalty Kill time over last three seasons-

Z:

408.38 minutes

D:

372.47 minutes

Keep in mind that Babcock finally started using Datsyuk on the PK three seasons ago.

[Datsyerberger 279]

The cap was going to be 52 million the year Datsyuk signed, its going to be $56 million next season and less the following season.

And some, scratch that, most would argue that the problem with the Wings is that they don't have an exciting standout player that attracts fans to the game.

1. Datsyuk is funny and consistently the best interview on the team. Watch his Selke and Byng winning speeches from last season for evidence.

2. Nick Lidstrom is efficient and could possibly be the best at what he does but hes boring. He plays a boring style, hes a boring interview and hes too safe.

3. Datsyuk is a highlight reel player, even on a national scale. He hits more and fights.

Zetterberg or Lidstrom's ability to verbalize hockey cliche's says nothing of their leadership ability.

Why does everyone love an Ovechkin interview? Because hes funny, he speaks broken engrish and hes an amazing offensive force. Does anyone actually care about hearing Sidney Crosby, Jerome Iginla or Joe Thornton talk? They all sound the same and all read the same book of canned NHL responses.

Don't get me wrong, Datsyuk (and Ovenchicken) has some hilarious lines. But the broken english is part of what makes it funny. Some would debate whether that's a good thing or not for a captain on a North American team.

Anyone that argues the italicized is a ******* moron (as I hope you'll agree). Datsyuk is widely regarded as one of the most exciting and flashy players in the league by anyone that knows anything about the league other than the top 3 players for their team.

However, you are seriously undervaluing Zetterberg's highlightreelness. Did you miss the playoffs, or just most of his goals this year?

As for Lidstrom being a boringr.. personality wise, no, he's not Iginla. He's not any more boring than the league's poster boy, though. As for him being a boring player.. I and many others here find him one of the most exciting players on the team (admittedly, though, it does take an experienced hockey-watching eye to enjoy Lidstrom to the fullest). Expect to catch some flak over that statement.

Edit (Yea yea, I can never get it done in one post): I'm not disagreeing that there are many who regard the Wings as a boring team. The reason for that, however, is not because of a lack of a flashy player, but rather the lack of fights and a low amount of grit and physicality as compared to many other teams in the league.

Edited December 31, 2008 by The Wheeled Winger

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Before this season, Hossa outperformed Zetterberg. During this season, Hossa has outperformed Zetterberg. If we had a choice between drafting Zetterberg or Hossa, everyone would have wanted Hossa.

Hes the exact player we've been lacking since Shanahan started playing a soft mans game.

Zetterberg at this point is redundant and as the stats show, hes done nothing to suggest that he should be paid more than Datsyuk or Lidstrom.

And its not bashing Lidstrom, its just another case of a player being overrated by a fan base who still can't comprehend going from an eighty million dollar pay roll to a fifty million dollar pay roll.

If you're going to spend $7 + million on a player, he should be able to pot 40 goals, regardless of position.

Everyone suggests that Lidstrom runs the PP but its cleary Datsyuk. Datsyuk hold the puck, Datsyuk makes backhand passes from the goal line, makes ridiculous passes to an open Lidstrom or Rafalski.

Theres no one suggesting that Lidstrom isn't a great defender but hes a defensive defenseman who happens to play on a great offensive minded team. Take Holmstrom or Datsyuk out of the equation and his production on the offensive end would drop drastically. And this is the same guy people wanted to throw $10 million at when the cap increased.

Kronwall looked just fine replacing him on the PP, so maybe the legend of Lidstrom is in fact a result of never getting injured and coinicidently the one time he actually did get hurt, so did the rest of the D corps so the team blew, which was instantly blamed on Lidstrom being sidelined.

The fact is, until now we've never seen a team without Lidstrom but with a remaining, strong, defensive group. Personally, I hope he misses multiple games, just to show that he is human after all and that a defenseman, even a multiple Norris winner, isn't more valuable than a forward.

Comparing players who have spent their entire post-CBA careers in opposite conferences almost always make the Eastern Conference player look better. The better Dman top to bottom reside in the West, and its also been much tighter than the run and gun East. Not to mention, Hossa has spent his career getting fat off a shallow PP along with Kovalchuk. The Wings, on the other hand, have always and will continue to spread the wealth.

Unlike you, I'm going to use actual facts rather than radical bias to prove this supposition.

Hossa 05/06 - .080 points per PP minute

Hossa 06/07 - .101 points per PP minute

Hossa 07/08 - .088 points per PP minute

Hank 05/06 - .102 points per PP minute

Hank 06/07 - .093 points per PP minute

Hank 07/08 - .105 points per PP minute

Hossa 05/06 - .043 points per ES minute

Hossa 06/07 - .044 points per ES minute

Hossa 07/08 - .034 points per ES minute

Hank 05/06 - .051 points per ES minute

Hank 06/07 - .047 points per ES minute

Hank 07/08 - .048 points per ES minute

Hossa's recalculated points with Hank's minutes:

05/06: 43 ES points(-2), 29 PP points (-10) (over 80 games), plus SHP = 88 points

06/07: 50 ES points (-2), 34 PP points(-10) (over 82 games), plus SHP = 92 points

07/08: 39 ES points(+4), 30 PP points(+1) (over 75 games/ 3 extra) = 71 points

Hank's recalculated points with Hossa's minutes:

005/06: 53 ES points (+4 points), 50 PP points (+15), plus SHP (over 80 games/ 3 extra)= 104 points

06/07: 55 ES points (+14), 40 PP points(+16), plus SHP (over 82 games / 19 games extra) = 108 points

07/08: 52 ES points(-3), 36 PP points (0), plus SHP = 89 points

Hank beats out Hossa every year and in dramatic fashion.

Edited December 31, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[Datsyerberger 279]

Hank beats out Hossa every year and in dramatic fashion.

Thanks for that large summation. Some will argue that just because A doesn't necessarily = B when it comes to arguments like that, but that's a worthwhile comparison. Just to play devil's advocate here, you could argue that Z has played on a superior team, in argument for his numbers.

Still, the most you can call it is a draw. There's no real truth to saying Hossa is superior (for a true test of skill, see 2008 SCF)

[ashenhigh 9]

The cap was going to be 52 million the year Datsyuk signed, its going to be $56 million next season and less the following season.

And some, scratch that, most would argue that the problem with the Wings is that they don't have an exciting standout player that attracts fans to the game.

1. Datsyuk is funny and consistently the best interview on the team. Watch his Selke and Byng winning speeches from last season for evidence.

2. Nick Lidstrom is efficient and could possibly be the best at what he does but hes boring. He plays a boring style, hes a boring interview and hes too safe.

3. Datsyuk is a highlight reel player, even on a national scale. He hits more and fights.

Zetterberg or Lidstrom's ability to verbalize hockey cliche's says nothing of their leadership ability.

Why does everyone love an Ovechkin interview? Because hes funny, he speaks broken engrish and hes an amazing offensive force. Does anyone actually care about hearing Sidney Crosby, Jerome Iginla or Joe Thornton talk? They all sound the same and all read the same book of canned NHL responses.

As far as Zetterberg being the superior player on the PK, thats up for debate. Datsyuk gets the majority of his take aways in the defensive zone, along the boards. How many times a game do you see him skating in his own zone with two or three players on him and he makes a pass to get it out of the zone?

Zetterberg is the "Safe" defensive player. He doesn't make mistakes but he doesn't take risks either. Its the risk that allows Datsyuk and Hossa to have odd man rushes on the PK. Or allows Datsyuk to strip the puck and get rid of it.

Its really an argument of whether or not you prefer passive or aggressive defense. And really, arguing which of the two is a better defensive player is pointless. Datsyuk has a Selke, nothing will change that. The only arguments ive ever seen in the past regarding that is posters who think Z should have won because they prefer his style.

Faceoffs taken over the last three seasons-

Z:

2636 taken, won 54%

Datsyuk:

2303 taken, won 56%

Penalty Kill time over last three seasons-

Z:

408.38 minutes

D:

372.47 minutes

Keep in mind that Babcock finally started using Datsyuk on the PK three seasons ago.

"Zune," You joined this forum today just to argue that Lidstrom is not an offensive defenseman and Z doesnt deserve more than 6.4 mil a year. In a thread about resigning Franzen or Hossa.

You cant honestly believe Datsyuk is a better candidate for captain than Z is.....

Yeah dats gives the best interviews, but tell me "Zune," WTF DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH CAPTAINING A TEAM?

Z will be our captain when our most valuable player (Lidstrom) hangs his skates, and Im sure at least 90% of all wings fans want this to happen.

And btw, Lids is a TREAT to watch, he isnt boring. A guy will come skating down the ice at full speed, all 220 pounds of him, standing at 6'5 and Lids skates to him and after a quick little boink the puck is knocked off his stick and the wings are rolling in 5th gear the other way. No one in the game right now is better at knocking the puck off the stick without having to play as much of the body as Lids does. Its amazing.

Edited December 31, 2008 by ashenhigh

[Copenhagen848 58]

Are we so sure that this is a foregone conclusion? I know he's the priority, but when Holland was talking specifically about the talks with Z he didn't sound like a whole lot of progress was being made. I don't think we can afford Z and Hossa together, so the "keep two of them" could very well be Franzen and either Z or Hossa ...

I agree. After listening to Kenny last night, I wouldn't bet the pot on Z being back for sure.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Thanks for that large summation. Some will argue that just because A doesn't necessarily = B when it comes to arguments like that, but that's a worthwhile comparison. Just to play devil's advocate here, you could argue that Z has played on a superior team, in argument for his numbers.

Still, the most you can call it is a draw. There's no real truth to saying Hossa is superior (for a true test of skill, see 2008 SCF)

Hossa spent the majority of his PP time out there with Kovalchuk. Even strength is a different story, but Kovalchuk is one of the best snipers in the league (or at least he was up until this year). Marc Savard wasn't too bad either.

As for the argument itself, I'm not Eva when it comes to statistics. But its something you always, always have to take into consdieration when looking at Eastern Conference forwards vs. Western Conference forwards. Sure, Spezza is a perennial 90 point centerman, and may end up posting career numbers better than Datsyuk. But do I think Spezza is the better offensive player? Hell no!

Hossa and Zetterberg are incredibly comparable in terms of offensive talent. Hossa is the slightly better goal scorer, Hank is the slightly better passer (although you wouldn't know either of these things are true from the way they're both playing lately).

And then as far as this season goes, Hossa has had the better linemates but I think Hank might be getting a little more time overall, and if Hank were to get 1 point tomorrow while Hossa gets none, then Hank moves ahead of Hossa in PPG. Right now, Hossa is ahead of Hank by a hair. Its that close.

Bottom line, to say that Hossa is without doubt the better forward than Zetterberg is beyond a joke.

Edited December 31, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[IceMunkee 15]

I took what Holland said a little differantly. This is my perception... I think he said he is having difficulty signing Zetterberg. Short term? Long term? Money, players want to get paid. That to me is saying that Z wants more then Lids. Completely unacceptable in my opinion. Z should not make more then Dats and if he does only because we signed Dats 2 years ago and the cap was differant. I just think Z wants to much and the wings have options. I would love to keep Z but I would rather keep Hossa and Franzen. Idealy i would keep Hossa and Z but understand that is impossible. So that is just my take. Mr. Face of the Wings is thinking more Zetterberg and less Red Wings...

Okay murder me....