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stevkrause

Rafalski or Hossa - If you had to choose

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With the trade deadline only 6 weeks away, if you had the choice to keep Marian Hossa and it meant trading Brian Rafalski, would you do it?

It would free up 6 million in cap space and with Ericsson NHL ready, Meech showing he can play at the NHL level and our addition of Stuart, it kinda makes sense to me... add that to the fact that if you free up that 6 mil in cap space (plus 1.2 for letting Sammy walk) you could VERY possibly not only keep Hossa, but ALSO re-sign both Franzen AND Hudler... don't get me wrong, I love Raffi, but it is intriguing to think about....

discuss...

Edited by stevkrause

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With the trade deadline only 6 weeks away, if you had the choice to keep Marian Hossa and it meant trading Brian Rafalski, would you do it?

It would free up 6 million in cap space and with Ericsson NHL ready, Meech showing he can play at the NHL level and our addition of Stuart, it kinda makes sense to me... add that to the fact that if you free up that 6 mil in cap space (plus 1.2 for letting Sammy walk) you could VERY possible not only keep Hossa, but ALSO re-sign both Franzen AND Hudler... don't get me wrong, I love Raffi, but it is intriguing to think about....

discuss...

Rafalski has a no-trade clause, so that really isn't an option. But if it were ...

I think I would still say no. I think the quality of our defense, specifically it's ability to move the puck, start breakouts from our zone, and generate offense from the blueline is more integral to our team success than having a strong winger with a sweet shot. Hossa is a great talent, and I wouldn't say he is easily replaceable, but I do think his role is easier to fill than Rafalski's, and the replacement would likely be cheaper. I think our team would suffer less if we downgrade at Hossa's position than if we downgrade at Rafalski's position.

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Rafalski has a no-trade clause, so that really isn't an option. But if it were ...

I think I would still say no. I think the quality of our defense, specifically it's ability to move the puck, start breakouts from our zone, and generate offense from the blueline is more integral to our team success than having a strong winger with a sweet shot. Hossa is a great talent, and I wouldn't say he is easily replaceable, but I do think his role is easier to fill than Rafalski's, and the replacement would likely be cheaper. I think our team would suffer less if we downgrade at Hossa's position than if we downgrade at Rafalski's position.

I didn't know Raffi had a no-trade clause... so this is a moot point, thanks for the info!

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Yes 6 Mill free'd up would do wonders to tie up some of our upcoming free agents and give some much needed breathing room. The only problem is that Rafalski has a no trade clause, which is something he wanted, when he was signing here as a UFA. NTC's handuff teams. There is dead weight on the team (no rafalski is not dead weight) but NTC make things difficult to maneuver around. It would be nice to deal Rafalski while hes got some value, and invest his return in youth. Tthere are a few teams begging for an offensive defensemen. I know its probably just a dream but if he was moved for picks/prospects to some team. and detroit frees up another mill or so via trade, wouldnt it be just great to get Bowmeister as a UFA signing for ~7 mill? Switch a 35 year old Dman for a better 25 year old, and get some picks for it as well. Just a dream.

To answer your orig question, If the NTC wasnt a problem, keeping hossa over Raf is the better idea, since hes got more years ahead of him. Raf should be slowing down soon in the next couple seasons, hes 35. Atleast you would think hed slow down soon..maybe he might age like Chelios and play till hes 47?? Not likely. This team needs to get something back for all the oldies that are headed for the pasture in the next few years.

Lets look at key talented players (1,2):

1)UFA's that could be lost in a few months: Franzen, Samuelson, Hossa, RFA Hudler. (i'm sure well sign Z, which is why hes not on the list, and 1 of last 4 mentioned)

2)Elder statesman that could retire, or become irrelevent/liabilities in the near future (2 -3 years): Lidstrom, Rafalski, Holmstrom.

-Now look at the potential losses in the last two lines, and look what you have coming up from GR: Helm, Lieno(if he doesnt leave), Abdelkadar, Erricson, and Kindyl, Howard, Larson. Whats in the system pales in comparison to what will be leaving, fading/dissapearing. To me even with Detroits deft drafting, can that difference in talent be made up in such short time, unless there is an infusion of picks, prospects. Getting rid of the older guys that still have value would be great. The loyalty holland et all have shown, is great but can hurt a team too, and I think it already showing. Signing UFA's is a temp fix, because even signing with a small discount to play in motown, it is still much more expensive then developing a player and have him blossom while under a less then beefy contract like detroit has (Franzen, Z, Hudler etc) done for a while. An example of UFA cost vs player developed contracts is Ryan Malone makes some 750k more then Mule+Z+Huds combined, yet as group they are worth so much more.

Btw, been a wings fan for 20 years now, and have been reading these boards for close to a year, even though this is my first post hear. Probert and yzerman were my favorite players. I suffered through some hard times before this team got really good.

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Rafalski has a no-trade clause, so that really isn't an option. But if it were ...

I think I would still say no. I think the quality of our defense, specifically it's ability to move the puck, start breakouts from our zone, and generate offense from the blueline is more integral to our team success than having a strong winger with a sweet shot. Hossa is a great talent, and I wouldn't say he is easily replaceable, but I do think his role is easier to fill than Rafalski's, and the replacement would likely be cheaper. I think our team would suffer less if we downgrade at Hossa's position than if we downgrade at Rafalski's position.

Looks like you beat me to the punch here, i was the first one responding to the initial topic, but took too long typing it up, and you posted before me. So much for having the answer first.

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NTC aside, this is a tricky question simply because of Lidstrom's age. While I'm not convinced he'll be done playing after next season, if he were to hang 'em up and both he and Rafalski were gone, the defense looks a little too young for my taste. If Raf was moved (which he can't be, but for this threads' sake) you're looking at a defense like this before any additions:

Kronwall-Stuart

Lilja-Meech

Ericsson-Lebda

That just isn't going to cut it given that Stuart doesn't have the potential to be a fist-line Dman and especially if he or Kronwall were injured. Again, I'm sure the Wings would put up the cash to bring in a top-end UFA with the money left on the table from Lids and Raf, but the defense (which has always been the Wings' strong-suit) all of a sudden looks porous. Add to that the Wings' philosophy is Defense first, Offense second, goaltending third.

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Yes 6 Mill free'd up would do wonders to tie up some of our upcoming free agents and give some much needed breathing room. The only problem is that Rafalski has a no trade clause, which is something he wanted, when he was signing here as a UFA. NTC's handuff teams. There is dead weight on the team (no rafalski is not dead weight) but NTC make things difficult to maneuver around. It would be nice to deal Rafalski while hes got some value, and invest his return in youth. Tthere are a few teams begging for an offensive defensemen. I know its probably just a dream but if he was moved for picks/prospects to some team. and detroit frees up another mill or so via trade, wouldnt it be just great to get Bowmeister as a UFA signing for ~7 mill? Switch a 35 year old Dman for a better 25 year old, and get some picks for it as well. Just a dream.

To answer your orig question, If the NTC wasnt a problem, keeping hossa over Raf is the better idea, since hes got more years ahead of him. Raf should be slowing down soon in the next couple seasons, hes 35. Atleast you would think hed slow down soon..maybe he might age like Chelios and play till hes 47?? Not likely. This team needs to get something back for all the oldies that are headed for the pasture in the next few years.

Lets look at key talented players (1,2):

1)UFA's that could be lost in a few months: Franzen, Samuelson, Hossa, RFA Hudler. (i'm sure well sign Z, which is why hes not on the list, and 1 of last 4 mentioned)

2)Elder statesman that could retire, or become irrelevent/liabilities in the near future (2 -3 years): Lidstrom, Rafalski, Holmstrom.

-Now look at the potential losses in the last two lines, and look what you have coming up from GR: Helm, Lieno(if he doesnt leave), Abdelkadar, Erricson, and Kindyl, Howard, Larson. Whats in the system pales in comparison to what will be leaving, fading/dissapearing. To me even with Detroits deft drafting, can that difference in talent be made up in such short time, unless there is an infusion of picks, prospects. Getting rid of the older guys that still have value would be great. The loyalty holland et all have shown, is great but can hurt a team too, and I think it already showing. Signing UFA's is a temp fix, because even signing with a small discount to play in motown, it is still much more expensive then developing a player and have him blossom while under a less then beefy contract like detroit has (Franzen, Z, Hudler etc) done for a while. An example of UFA cost vs player developed contracts is Ryan Malone makes some 750k more then Mule+Z+Huds combined, yet as group they are worth so much more.

Btw, been a wings fan for 20 years now, and have been reading these boards for close to a year, even though this is my first post hear. Probert and yzerman were my favorite players. I suffered through some hard times before this team got really good.

Welcome!

I think a lot of Wings fans are over-critical of Rafaski because he happens to play with one of the top 5 defensemen to ever lace up skates in the history of the NHL. Rafalski is pretty damn good, but admittedly not near as close to perfection as Lidstrom -- but no defenseman currently in the NHL is. Neidermayer is done; Pronger is incredibly inconsistent; Zubov can't stay healthy; Guys like Boyle, Phaneuf, Weber, Streit, Gonchar, Campbell can put up points like Rafalski, but make him look like Lidstrom, defensively. He puts up points, is dynamite on the power play and far better than average defensively. I would give him up for Chara, Wideman, Keith or Bouwmeester -- and that is mainly on age -- there is just not much out there at Rafalski's level.

With Hossa, on this team alone we have two comparable, if not superior forwards already in Datsyuk and Zetterberg. I view Rafalski as much more important.

Edited by egroen

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Premier defencemen are harder to find than shooters. Looking at the prospect list, there's enough offensive horsepower waiting in the wings that sacrificing the D to merely add more offensive depth isn't the best move.

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Even if there wasn't a NTC, I would say definitely no. Especially this year, our offense isn't the problem, its been our defense, and you don't replace a defenseman of Rafalski's caliber with an AHLer, not matter how highly we all think of Ericcson.

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Rafalski has a no-trade clause, so that really isn't an option. But if it were ...

I think I would still say no. I think the quality of our defense, specifically it's ability to move the puck, start breakouts from our zone, and generate offense from the blueline is more integral to our team success than having a strong winger with a sweet shot. Hossa is a great talent, and I wouldn't say he is easily replaceable, but I do think his role is easier to fill than Rafalski's, and the replacement would likely be cheaper. I think our team would suffer less if we downgrade at Hossa's position than if we downgrade at Rafalski's position.

Quoted for truth!

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Even if there wasn't a NTC, I would say definitely no. Especially this year, our offense isn't the problem, its been our defense, and you don't replace a defenseman of Rafalski's caliber with an AHLer, not matter how highly we all think of Ericcson.

Ericsson is a stud prospect but no one should expect him to step in and play on the Red Wings top pairing in his rookie year! If he does he'll instantly win the Calder :) So yeah... I'd love that!

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NTC aside, this is a tricky question simply because of Lidstrom's age. While I'm not convinced he'll be done playing after next season, if he were to hang 'em up and both he and Rafalski were gone, the defense looks a little too young for my taste. If Raf was moved (which he can't be, but for this threads' sake) you're looking at a defense like this before any additions:

Kronwall-Stuart

Lilja-Meech

Ericsson-Lebda

That just isn't going to cut it given that Stuart doesn't have the potential to be a fist-line Dman and especially if he or Kronwall were injured. Again, I'm sure the Wings would put up the cash to bring in a top-end UFA with the money left on the table from Lids and Raf, but the defense (which has always been the Wings' strong-suit) all of a sudden looks porous. Add to that the Wings' philosophy is Defense first, Offense second, goaltending third.

You forgot Kindl in that mix but your point remains true. I guess the Wings could address the issue through free agency,but I keep Rafalski if its me making the decisions (And we can all thank god i'm not).

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You forgot Kindl in that mix but your point remains true. I guess the Wings could address the issue through free agency,but I keep Rafalski if its me making the decisions (And we can all thank god i'm not).

Actually, I didn't forget Kindl...I just didn't include him in the top 6. No doubt he'd likely end up taking Lebda's job, but after next season Lebda will have had a lot more experience under his belt and would probably get the 6th spot. Kindl would be worked in at that point, however I probably should've listed him under the bottom pairing to prevent confusion.

Cheers

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As much as I love offense and high scoring game as they are usually more exciting, I'm a pretty strong proponent of defense winning championships, though there are obviously exceptions to this.

Hossa may be better offensively than Rafalski is defensively, but Hossa is one of the best offensive guys in the game today and Rafalski is no slouch on defense.

With my mindset here, I take Rafalski.

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