Howe And Y about Fedorov and Dats.

[molotov 0]

The Fedorov postings were by MARK Howe, not Gordie. C-TownWing, this was not directed at you.

Yea, sorry guys.

I should tell about it at once.

[Wing Across The Pond 196]

I think that seen as it's a Russian paper... they may just be trying to hype up their team before the Olympics.

Wouldn't suprise me, since a lot of people in Russia are probably not aware of much that's going on in NHL, their press are probably trying to say "Our team is better this time around".

That said I didn't see much of Fedorov due to being too young, but Dats has got moves that other players don't know are possible. I can't really give a valid opinion though.

[imisssergei 0]

At the height of his career, Sergei was simply amazing. And he did it on a team that was amazing.

I don't think we've seen Datsyuk at his height quite yet, but no doubt it will come while playing for an amazing team just as Sergei did.

Physcially, I think you have to give it to Fedorov hands down. He is so far above Datsyuk in skating abilities, and shooting.

However, Datsyuk is equally ahead of Fedorov in the motivation category, and his one on one abilities.

An honest side by side comparison of these two guys would give Fedorov and edge here and there, and the same with Datsyuk. In the end, they are pretty damn close.

And I love Sergei. I really do. But he is not head and shoulders above Datsyuk. It might sound like the 'politically correct' answer, but I really think they are on the same level. They just got there in different ways. (That is the Sergei of yesteryear anyhow...)

[C-TownWing 0]

First off: people, for the love of all that is holy, read the entire thread before you post. The Fedorov postings were by MARK Howe, not Gordie. C-TownWing, this was not directed at you.

Secondly: Self-devotion means determination and motivation to give your all every night. The OP is ESL. Don't be a dick.

No worries, I guess that makes a little more sense, given that he's a scout.

Point still stands: Yzerman played with both, MARK Howe didn't. Or you could use Howe for both, given that he was a pro scout during the careers of both. I just think it's dumb to use different grading scales. Or to expect Yzerman to say that Datsyuk sucks at something (he doesn't, but if he did).

[molotov 0]

Wouldn't suprise me, since a lot of people in Russia are probably not aware of much that's going on in NHL

Bulls***. I think there is much more russians who's aware 'what's going on in NHL' than in UK.

their press are probably trying to say "Our team is better this time around".

For what? Currently Russia is the best national team.

[imisssergei 0]

Bulls***. I think there is much more russians who's aware 'what's going on in NHL' than in UK.

For what? Currently Russia is the best national team.

No they don't. Canada will always have the deepest talent pool to draw from. That is one of their greatest strengths and weaknesses.

Russia brings everyone. Canada has to choose who stays home.

Think about it. Out of Crosby, Savard, Thornton, Vinny, Cater, and Getzlaf, there is really only 4 spots available. Realistically speaking, Crosby, Thornton and Vinny are locks if they are willing. So it's really 1 spot from the other 3 guys.

Russia won't have the chance to leave talent like that off the team.

[Uncle Danny 155]

No they don't. Canada will always have the deepest talent pool to draw from. That is one of their greatest strengths and weaknesses.

Russia brings everyone. Canada has to choose who stays home.

Think about it. Out of Crosby, Savard, Thornton, Vinny, Cater, and Getzlaf, there is really only 4 spots available. Realistically speaking, Crosby, Thornton and Vinny are locks if they are willing. So it's really 1 spot from the other 3 guys.

Russia won't have the chance to leave talent like that off the team.

No one would question that Canada has MORE top talent. I read a quote the other day about them being able to ice three Olympic caliber teams, and there really isn't any arguing that fact. The real question, though, is who can field the best team...

Can Russia field a single team that could take on Canada's best team? Remains to be seen, but I would hardly call it a foregone conclusion that they can't. They don't have the depth Canada does, but their top talent is some of the best on the planet.

Not that this completes the argument, consider the following:

Nash, Crosby/Thornton, Iginla

Ovechkin, Malkin/Datsyuk, Kovalchuk

Who do you pick?

[imisssergei 0]

No one would question that Canada has MORE top talent. I read a quote the other day about them being able to ice three Olympic caliber teams, and there really isn't any arguing that fact. The real question, though, is who can field the best team...

Can Russia field a single team that could take on Canada's best team? Remains to be seen, but I would hardly call it a foregone conclusion that they can't. They don't have the depth Canada does, but their top talent is some of the best on the planet.

Not that this completes the argument, consider the following:

Nash, Crosby/Thornton, Iginla

Ovechkin, Malkin/Datsyuk, Kovalchuk

Who do you pick?

All I'm saying is that anytime Canada doesn't win, it's an upset. You just can't say that about Russia.

Canada's biggest obstacle is not getting the most talented team, but the right team. If it were about sheer talent, Canada would win very year, hands down.

Vinny

Crosby

Thornton

Iginla

Nash

Savard

Getzlaf

Carter

Marleau

Roy

Cammalleri

St. Louis

Brad Richards

Mike Richards

Luongo

Marty

Fleury

Giguere

Come on. That's without putting any effort in thinking about it.

[LeftWinger 4,936]

are we talking about Gordie Howe or Mark? Asking Gordie to rank a player is like asking Muhammed Ali to tell you what year it is! Gordie can tell you all about Dennis Hextal or Bobby Hull. How about we ask Steve Yzerman about Fedorov and maybe Babcock about Datsyuk? Both in their prime Fedorov wins just because of the "NHL" that he played in. Put a 24 year old Sergei Fedorov in the New NHL and look out! Dats has slick moves, but I think he wouldn't be as effective in the clutch and grab era where Fedorov dominated. Two different players two different eras. Hey I got it, lets compare Howe and Gretzky...

[eva unit zero 271]

At the height of his career, Sergei was simply amazing. And he did it on a team that was amazing.

Fedorov at his best was Ovechkin's goal scoring, Datsyuk's playmaking, and physical game, Carbonneau's defensive game, Draper's faceoffs, Mike Gartner's speed. As far as puckhandling, he could deke as well as Datsyuk. He could also skate faster than anyone I have ever seen during my life while carrying the puck; rivaled by a few names who were great skaters and puckhandlers: Russ Courtnall, Paul Coffey, Pavel Bure, Alexander Mogilny, and very few others have even come close during my 29 years.

I don't think we've seen Datsyuk at his height quite yet, but no doubt it will come while playing for an amazing team just as Sergei did.

Physcially, I think you have to give it to Fedorov hands down. He is so far above Datsyuk in skating abilities, and shooting.

However, Datsyuk is equally ahead of Fedorov in the motivation category, and his one on one abilities.

Here I think you make a mistake. Fedorov one on one was not just great. He was incredible. I don't know that he was better than Datsyuk...but Datsyuk certainly wasn't much better than Fedorov, if at all. I say this because Fedorov was among the best one-on-one players in the NHL.

An honest side by side comparison of these two guys would give Fedorov and edge here and there, and the same with Datsyuk. In the end, they are pretty damn close.

And I love Sergei. I really do. But he is not head and shoulders above Datsyuk. It might sound like the 'politically correct' answer, but I really think they are on the same level. They just got there in different ways. (That is the Sergei of yesteryear anyhow...)

I would say the Sergei of his prime was head and shoulders above Datsyuk. Why? Because he was head and shoulders above everyone. He was very arguably the best offensive player AND best defensive player in the world. That's unheard of. Pavel is among the better offensive players and better defensive players right now but he doesn't dominate at both ends on a nightly basis the way Sergei did in his late 20s. But it's unlikely, as Pavel is already 30 and is probably at his peak and will likely not get much better than his is now. If Fedorov were playing in today's NHL from the ages of 25-30, he'd likely have had a few 100+ point seasons while being a Selke finalist every year. That's how dominant Fedorov was. Think about Zetterberg this season for a second. In terms of skill, Z and Dats are VERY close both offensively and defensively; the primary difference is that Z is a better shooter and Dats is a better playmaker. This season, however, Dats has been placed primarily in a role of "playmaker" on the first line, while Zetterberg has been placed in a role of "stopper" on the second line. This caused a great difference in their stats. Some people have used this to say "Datsyuk is obviously better and Zetterberg needed Datsyuk" rather than recognizing the roles. Since they have been put back together, both players have been scoring very well, with Zetterberg still serving as the primary defensive role as he did on the line before. Fedorov played as that defensive stopper Zetterberg was serving as EVERY season, yet still was scoring a point per game and among the league leaders in scoring in a much weaker league offensively

[Atariboy 0]

So many people have forgotten how great Fedorov was already?!?

Folks, he was dominant!

Not taking anything away from Dats... but we're talking about a past Hart winner who was scary fast, had tremendous moves, and could play stifling defense.

I hate comparing players who are barely contemporaries (so I won't) but let's not re-write history!

[imisssergei 0]

Fedorov at his best was Ovechkin's goal scoring, Datsyuk's playmaking, and physical game, Carbonneau's defensive game, Draper's faceoffs, Mike Gartner's speed. As far as puckhandling, he could deke as well as Datsyuk. He could also skate faster than anyone I have ever seen during my life while carrying the puck; rivaled by a few names who were great skaters and puckhandlers: Russ Courtnall, Paul Coffey, Pavel Bure, Alexander Mogilny, and very few others have even come close during my 29 years.

Here I think you make a mistake. Fedorov one on one was not just great. He was incredible. I don't know that he was better than Datsyuk...but Datsyuk certainly wasn't much better than Fedorov, if at all. I say this because Fedorov was among the best one-on-one players in the NHL.

I would say the Sergei of his prime was head and shoulders above Datsyuk. Why? Because he was head and shoulders above everyone. He was very arguably the best offensive player AND best defensive player in the world. That's unheard of. Pavel is among the better offensive players and better defensive players right now but he doesn't dominate at both ends on a nightly basis the way Sergei did in his late 20s. But it's unlikely, as Pavel is already 30 and is probably at his peak and will likely not get much better than his is now. If Fedorov were playing in today's NHL from the ages of 25-30, he'd likely have had a few 100+ point seasons while being a Selke finalist every year. That's how dominant Fedorov was. Think about Zetterberg this season for a second. In terms of skill, Z and Dats are VERY close both offensively and defensively; the primary difference is that Z is a better shooter and Dats is a better playmaker. This season, however, Dats has been placed primarily in a role of "playmaker" on the first line, while Zetterberg has been placed in a role of "stopper" on the second line. This caused a great difference in their stats. Some people have used this to say "Datsyuk is obviously better and Zetterberg needed Datsyuk" rather than recognizing the roles. Since they have been put back together, both players have been scoring very well, with Zetterberg still serving as the primary defensive role as he did on the line before. Fedorov played as that defensive stopper Zetterberg was serving as EVERY season, yet still was scoring a point per game and among the league leaders in scoring in a much weaker league offensively

I'm not forgetting anything Fedorov did. I honestly believe that he is the most talented player to ever lace up a pair of skates. The only problem that he had was motivation. Yes, Sergei at 75% was still better than most. But too often we saw the 50% or less Sergei. I'm not bitching, or taking a stab at him. It is what it is. I still wish he was on the team, and I hope he will finish his career as a Wing.

There is simply no denying that Pavel is better one on one than Sergei. Fedorov never really undressed guys the way Pavel does. With Sergei it was more just beat the guy, usually with speed and his patented shoulder dip move. You never know where Pavel is going, or what he is going to do with the puck.

However talented Sergei was/is, he didn't use the talents to their full potential. I still feel we never saw a 110% effort out of Fedorov for a full season. That's what really separates and elevates Pavel. He is solid every single night. And I think you are way off base to say that Pavel isn't a the offensive or defensive player you say Fedorov was. Any argument you make for Sergei could be flipped to one for Pavel, save Fedorov's ability to play as a defenseman.

Really, a stat guy like yourself pulling out the era card eh? Pavel Bure could have scored 100 goals a year playing in the 50's. That's a straw man argument.

Sergei was always a scoring threat. But to say he was the best in that era just isn't true. He never won the Art Ross. In fact, from 81-01 if you weren't named Gretzky, Lemieux, or Jagr, you didn't win the Art Ross. On the defensive side, Fedorov won 2 Selke's, to Pavel's one. It's safe to say that for the last 3 seasons Pavel has been talked about winning the award, and for the foreseeable future will continue to be right near the top of that list. He should end his career with a few Selke's.

It's six in one hand...

[molotov 0]

No they don't. Canada will always have the deepest talent pool to draw from. That is one of their greatest strengths and weaknesses.

Russia brings everyone. Canada has to choose who stays home.

Think about it. Out of Crosby, Savard, Thornton, Vinny, Cater, and Getzlaf, there is really only 4 spots available. Realistically speaking, Crosby, Thornton and Vinny are locks if they are willing. So it's really 1 spot from the other 3 guys.

Russia won't have the chance to leave talent like that off the team.

Dude.

Do you know that not all russians playing in NHL? I think yes.

Do you think every european talent moves to America?

How many non-NHL russians you know?

So, you can't talk about 'deepest talent pool'. Right?

When I said 'currently the best national team' I meant 'current world champion'. I think it's objective.

[Wing Across The Pond 196]

Bulls***. I think there is much more russians who's aware 'what's going on in NHL' than in UK.

For what? Currently Russia is the best national team.

Ok I don't quite realise why your having a go at me.... In case you didn't realise I think the Russian team and public are confident that they can win at the Olympics (which isn't the World Championships and as of yet, they haven't won an Olympic Gold). I understand you are in Russia watching the NHL but I was simply trying to say, as you mentioned, Russia has their own league, which I'm sure more people are focused on that the NHL. As for the UK we don't even have a half-decent league, so instead of watching it here, a lot more people watch the NHL.

I think Russia will challange, never said otherwise. All I said was this is probably a reporter trying to relay how well players like Dats are doing to those back in Russia.

[molotov 0]

Ok I don't quite realise why your having a go at me.... In case you didn't realise I think the Russian team and public are confident that they can win at the Olympics (which isn't the World Championships and as of yet, they haven't won an Olympic Gold). I understand you are in Russia watching the NHL but I was simply trying to say, as you mentioned, Russia has their own league, which I'm sure more people are focused on that the NHL. As for the UK we don't even have a half-decent league, so instead of watching it here, a lot more people watch the NHL.

I think Russia will challange, never said otherwise. All I said was this is probably a reporter trying to relay how well players like Dats are doing to those back in Russia.

I meant we watching the NHL. Yea, we have our own KHL but we must watch NHL, because you know - AO, D, EM, IK, ...

So, why these ratings? I think there is no ******* sense to read about Dats or AO - everyone know they're awesome players. But we want to hear authoritative opinion about such non-star russians like Frolov or Lisin.