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Howe And Y about Fedorov and Dats.


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#41 Opie

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 02:32 PM

I have a question, what team did Feds carry?? Honest question, seriously honest question!

It is not like he was AO in WAS, he had very high end talent around him.

The only time I REMEMBER him being asked to carry the team was against LA in the playoffs when Shanny and Yzerman were hurt.
Other than that there was always Shanny, Yzerman, Lids, Igor, Fetisov, etc.

Not saying he wasn't good, just I don't remember him putting the team on his back for more than a game or two, the rest of the time he was a pivotal and very important cog, but not carrying the team.

Perfect example would have been had he stepped up in 02, but instead a nearly crippled Yzerman did. (sure he had 19 points in 23 games, but Yzerman willed and carried that team to victory, especially in the first round!)

Just asking, not asserting he didn't, just saying I don't remember him carrying the team, when he went to ANA he was supposed to carry the team, he did for one season.

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#42 Heroes of Hockeytown

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 02:37 PM

You wanna talk about good first rounds, the same way Steve scored big goals and played great against the Canucks, Sergei dominated the Coyotes in '98 when the Wings fell behind early. He had, what, six goals in that series?
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#43 C-TownWing

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 02:48 PM

QUOTE (bellarina @ February 13, 2009 - 12:15PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've been watching and playing hockey for 34 years and Dats has a very unique set of skills that I have never seen before. His vision, elusiveness, smarts, underestimated shot, sense, and ability to read people are all 10's in my book.

Thanks for validating my opinion on this...he really does have a deceptively strong shot--I remember a GWG he had against Columbus a couple years ago where he just absolutely wired it from just inside the blueline. I didn't think he had that kind of shot until then, to be honest. He also has skills that you wouldn't normally expect out of his player type, like a little bit of a physical edge (not to mention the fact that he takes a hit as well as anyone I've ever seen).

Statistically, since the lockout, Datsyuk's been equal to or better than Fedorov at any point of his career, with the notable exception of 1993-1996. Accolade-wise, he's quickly gaining ground as well. Don't kid yourself, there's definitely a discussion here, and I think Datsyuk will end up as the better of the two by the time they're both done.

Edited by C-TownWing, 13 February 2009 - 02:49 PM.


#44 GMRwings1983

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 03:23 PM

Some of these attributes make no sense and neither does this whole story.

What the hell is self-devotion mean? And what does tactics mean in this context?


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#45 GMRwings1983

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 03:28 PM

QUOTE (Opie @ February 13, 2009 - 01:32PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have a question, what team did Feds carry?? Honest question, seriously honest question!

It is not like he was AO in WAS, he had very high end talent around him.

The only time I REMEMBER him being asked to carry the team was against LA in the playoffs when Shanny and Yzerman were hurt.
Other than that there was always Shanny, Yzerman, Lids, Igor, Fetisov, etc.

Not saying he wasn't good, just I don't remember him putting the team on his back for more than a game or two, the rest of the time he was a pivotal and very important cog, but not carrying the team.

Perfect example would have been had he stepped up in 02, but instead a nearly crippled Yzerman did. (sure he had 19 points in 23 games, but Yzerman willed and carried that team to victory, especially in the first round!)

Just asking, not asserting he didn't, just saying I don't remember him carrying the team, when he went to ANA he was supposed to carry the team, he did for one season.


I'm not sure that any great player ever carried his team anywhere to a championship. HOF'ers usually played with other greats and that's how they won Cups.

Yzerman carried the WIngs in the 80's, but where did he carry them to? They missed the playoffs most of the time.

Datsyuk has not really carried the Wings. There's too much talent on this team to say otherwise.

Fedorov was huge for the Wings in 2003 when Yzerman was injured most of the year, but once again, we had too much talent to say that he carried the team by himself.

I'm not sure what you meant by your post, but maybe it has something to do with you always posting about how Sergei isn't a lock for the HOF. The fact that he never carried a team isn't a good reason for that position.
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#46 evilmrt

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 03:31 PM

QUOTE (egroen @ February 13, 2009 - 10:20AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If I assume Datsyuk is at his peak right now (which he might not even be at yet), here is how I would rate their peaks:

Fedorov:
-----------------------------------------------
1. Self-devotion.........................8/10


You're kidding me, right? This should be at most a 5...

Thats the one thing Fedorov DIDNT have. Thats why so many people here are glad hes gone. Don't you remember when Bowman made him play defense, as a way of kicking him in the ass?



#47 egroen

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 03:36 PM

QUOTE (evilmrt @ February 13, 2009 - 03:31PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You're kidding me, right? This should be at most a 5...

Thats the one thing Fedorov DIDNT have. Thats why so many people here are glad hes gone. Don't you remember when Bowman made him play defense, as a way of kicking him in the ass?

I was rating Fedorov at his peak, when he showed up to play on a much more consistent basis -- his work ethic was not called into question very often in the early-to-mid 90s.

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#48 Opie

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 03:39 PM

QUOTE (GMRwings1983 @ February 13, 2009 - 08:28PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not sure that any great player ever carried his team anywhere to a championship. HOF'ers usually played with other greats and that's how they won Cups.

Yzerman carried the WIngs in the 80's, but where did he carry them to? They missed the playoffs most of the time.

Datsyuk has not really carried the Wings. There's too much talent on this team to say otherwise.

Fedorov was huge for the Wings in 2003 when Yzerman was injured most of the year, but once again, we had too much talent to say that he carried the team by himself.

I'm not sure what you meant by your post, but maybe it has something to do with you always posting about how Sergei isn't a lock for the HOF. The fact that he never carried a team isn't a good reason for that position.


Actually as I stated it was an honest question, posters said the difference between the two was that Feds carried the team, I asked when.

Yzerman may not have carried the team in the 80's but other than the first round in 98 he carried the team the rest of the way (hence Conn Smythe and leading scorer in the post season), in 02 he carried the team through the first round and his heart not stick or knee took the team the rest of the way.

You may have also noticed, though I doubt it, that the poster under me said Feds carried the team in the first round of 98, did I argue with him, did I say he was wrong.

NO because it was an honest question in response to people saying Feds carried the team and Dats has not!

At least I can back up my Fed is not a lock for the hall with stats and facts, egroen and I have had that discussion and you would have to ask his opinion, but it has never been an argument with me.

He values what feds did in the post season, I think the fact he was only a great player for 2 seasons and his numbers are not the typical HOF numbers that he is not HOF worthy, I also don't think Cam is HOF worthy. Does that mean they don't belong or that they shouldn't be there, no it means my opinion differs from others. Unlike you, I have no problem with that, however I will defend my opinion.

But thanks for bringing up something I never brought up or even mentioned.


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#49 bellarina

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 03:41 PM

MY OPINION is that Datsyuk is FAR bettter than Fedorov.

I know some of you don't like my opinion, but I really could care less.

I'm glad that he left, he never liked being in Stevie's shadow.

I regret losing Slava Kozlov though.
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#50 Uncle Danny

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 06:46 PM

QUOTE (GMRwings1983 @ February 13, 2009 - 04:23PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Some of these attributes make no sense and neither does this whole story.

What the hell is self-devotion mean? And what does tactics mean in this context?


First off: people, for the love of all that is holy, read the entire thread before you post. The Fedorov postings were by MARK Howe, not Gordie. C-TownWing, this was not directed at you.

Secondly: Self-devotion means determination and motivation to give your all every night. The OP is ESL. Don't be a dick.
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#51 molotov

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 03:18 AM

QUOTE (Uncle Danny @ February 14, 2009 - 04:46AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Fedorov postings were by MARK Howe, not Gordie. C-TownWing, this was not directed at you.

Yea, sorry guys.
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#52 Wing Across The Pond

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 08:19 AM

I think that seen as it's a Russian paper... they may just be trying to hype up their team before the Olympics.

Wouldn't suprise me, since a lot of people in Russia are probably not aware of much that's going on in NHL, their press are probably trying to say "Our team is better this time around".

That said I didn't see much of Fedorov due to being too young, but Dats has got moves that other players don't know are possible. I can't really give a valid opinion though.

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#53 imisssergei

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 11:08 AM

At the height of his career, Sergei was simply amazing. And he did it on a team that was amazing.

I don't think we've seen Datsyuk at his height quite yet, but no doubt it will come while playing for an amazing team just as Sergei did.

Physcially, I think you have to give it to Fedorov hands down. He is so far above Datsyuk in skating abilities, and shooting.

However, Datsyuk is equally ahead of Fedorov in the motivation category, and his one on one abilities.

An honest side by side comparison of these two guys would give Fedorov and edge here and there, and the same with Datsyuk. In the end, they are pretty damn close.

And I love Sergei. I really do. But he is not head and shoulders above Datsyuk. It might sound like the 'politically correct' answer, but I really think they are on the same level. They just got there in different ways. (That is the Sergei of yesteryear anyhow...)
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#54 C-TownWing

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 12:14 PM

QUOTE (Uncle Danny @ February 13, 2009 - 06:46PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
First off: people, for the love of all that is holy, read the entire thread before you post. The Fedorov postings were by MARK Howe, not Gordie. C-TownWing, this was not directed at you.

Secondly: Self-devotion means determination and motivation to give your all every night. The OP is ESL. Don't be a dick.

No worries, I guess that makes a little more sense, given that he's a scout. smile.gif

Point still stands: Yzerman played with both, MARK Howe didn't. Or you could use Howe for both, given that he was a pro scout during the careers of both. I just think it's dumb to use different grading scales. Or to expect Yzerman to say that Datsyuk sucks at something (he doesn't, but if he did).

#55 molotov

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 02:11 PM

QUOTE (Wing Across The Pond @ February 14, 2009 - 06:19PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wouldn't suprise me, since a lot of people in Russia are probably not aware of much that's going on in NHL

Bulls***. I think there is much more russians who's aware 'what's going on in NHL' than in UK.

QUOTE (Wing Across The Pond @ February 14, 2009 - 06:19PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
their press are probably trying to say "Our team is better this time around".

For what? Currently Russia is the best national team.
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#56 imisssergei

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 04:26 PM

QUOTE (molotov @ February 14, 2009 - 03:11PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bulls***. I think there is much more russians who's aware 'what's going on in NHL' than in UK.


For what? Currently Russia is the best national team.

No they don't. Canada will always have the deepest talent pool to draw from. That is one of their greatest strengths and weaknesses.

Russia brings everyone. Canada has to choose who stays home.

Think about it. Out of Crosby, Savard, Thornton, Vinny, Cater, and Getzlaf, there is really only 4 spots available. Realistically speaking, Crosby, Thornton and Vinny are locks if they are willing. So it's really 1 spot from the other 3 guys.

Russia won't have the chance to leave talent like that off the team.
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#57 Uncle Danny

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 04:47 PM

QUOTE (imisssergei @ February 14, 2009 - 05:26PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No they don't. Canada will always have the deepest talent pool to draw from. That is one of their greatest strengths and weaknesses.

Russia brings everyone. Canada has to choose who stays home.

Think about it. Out of Crosby, Savard, Thornton, Vinny, Cater, and Getzlaf, there is really only 4 spots available. Realistically speaking, Crosby, Thornton and Vinny are locks if they are willing. So it's really 1 spot from the other 3 guys.

Russia won't have the chance to leave talent like that off the team.

No one would question that Canada has MORE top talent. I read a quote the other day about them being able to ice three Olympic caliber teams, and there really isn't any arguing that fact. The real question, though, is who can field the best team...

Can Russia field a single team that could take on Canada's best team? Remains to be seen, but I would hardly call it a foregone conclusion that they can't. They don't have the depth Canada does, but their top talent is some of the best on the planet.

Not that this completes the argument, consider the following:

Nash, Crosby/Thornton, Iginla
Ovechkin, Malkin/Datsyuk, Kovalchuk

Who do you pick?
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#58 imisssergei

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 05:11 PM

QUOTE (Uncle Danny @ February 14, 2009 - 05:47PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No one would question that Canada has MORE top talent. I read a quote the other day about them being able to ice three Olympic caliber teams, and there really isn't any arguing that fact. The real question, though, is who can field the best team...

Can Russia field a single team that could take on Canada's best team? Remains to be seen, but I would hardly call it a foregone conclusion that they can't. They don't have the depth Canada does, but their top talent is some of the best on the planet.

Not that this completes the argument, consider the following:

Nash, Crosby/Thornton, Iginla
Ovechkin, Malkin/Datsyuk, Kovalchuk

Who do you pick?

All I'm saying is that anytime Canada doesn't win, it's an upset. You just can't say that about Russia.

Canada's biggest obstacle is not getting the most talented team, but the right team. If it were about sheer talent, Canada would win very year, hands down.

Vinny
Crosby
Thornton
Iginla
Nash
Savard
Getzlaf
Carter
Marleau
Roy
Cammalleri
St. Louis
Brad Richards
Mike Richards

Luongo
Marty
Fleury
Giguere


Come on. That's without putting any effort in thinking about it.
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#59 LeftWinger

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 09:02 PM

are we talking about Gordie Howe or Mark? Asking Gordie to rank a player is like asking Muhammed Ali to tell you what year it is! Gordie can tell you all about Dennis Hextal or Bobby Hull. How about we ask Steve Yzerman about Fedorov and maybe Babcock about Datsyuk? Both in their prime Fedorov wins just because of the "NHL" that he played in. Put a 24 year old Sergei Fedorov in the New NHL and look out! Dats has slick moves, but I think he wouldn't be as effective in the clutch and grab era where Fedorov dominated. Two different players two different eras. Hey I got it, lets compare Howe and Gretzky... huh.gif

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#60 eva unit zero

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 11:20 PM

QUOTE (imisssergei @ February 14, 2009 - 11:08AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
At the height of his career, Sergei was simply amazing. And he did it on a team that was amazing.


Fedorov at his best was Ovechkin's goal scoring, Datsyuk's playmaking, and physical game, Carbonneau's defensive game, Draper's faceoffs, Mike Gartner's speed. As far as puckhandling, he could deke as well as Datsyuk. He could also skate faster than anyone I have ever seen during my life while carrying the puck; rivaled by a few names who were great skaters and puckhandlers: Russ Courtnall, Paul Coffey, Pavel Bure, Alexander Mogilny, and very few others have even come close during my 29 years.

QUOTE
I don't think we've seen Datsyuk at his height quite yet, but no doubt it will come while playing for an amazing team just as Sergei did.

Physcially, I think you have to give it to Fedorov hands down. He is so far above Datsyuk in skating abilities, and shooting.

However, Datsyuk is equally ahead of Fedorov in the motivation category, and his one on one abilities.


Here I think you make a mistake. Fedorov one on one was not just great. He was incredible. I don't know that he was better than Datsyuk...but Datsyuk certainly wasn't much better than Fedorov, if at all. I say this because Fedorov was among the best one-on-one players in the NHL.

QUOTE
An honest side by side comparison of these two guys would give Fedorov and edge here and there, and the same with Datsyuk. In the end, they are pretty damn close.

And I love Sergei. I really do. But he is not head and shoulders above Datsyuk. It might sound like the 'politically correct' answer, but I really think they are on the same level. They just got there in different ways. (That is the Sergei of yesteryear anyhow...)


I would say the Sergei of his prime was head and shoulders above Datsyuk. Why? Because he was head and shoulders above everyone. He was very arguably the best offensive player AND best defensive player in the world. That's unheard of. Pavel is among the better offensive players and better defensive players right now but he doesn't dominate at both ends on a nightly basis the way Sergei did in his late 20s. But it's unlikely, as Pavel is already 30 and is probably at his peak and will likely not get much better than his is now. If Fedorov were playing in today's NHL from the ages of 25-30, he'd likely have had a few 100+ point seasons while being a Selke finalist every year. That's how dominant Fedorov was. Think about Zetterberg this season for a second. In terms of skill, Z and Dats are VERY close both offensively and defensively; the primary difference is that Z is a better shooter and Dats is a better playmaker. This season, however, Dats has been placed primarily in a role of "playmaker" on the first line, while Zetterberg has been placed in a role of "stopper" on the second line. This caused a great difference in their stats. Some people have used this to say "Datsyuk is obviously better and Zetterberg needed Datsyuk" rather than recognizing the roles. Since they have been put back together, both players have been scoring very well, with Zetterberg still serving as the primary defensive role as he did on the line before. Fedorov played as that defensive stopper Zetterberg was serving as EVERY season, yet still was scoring a point per game and among the league leaders in scoring in a much weaker league offensively
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