Is it time to make some major moves for this year's playoff run?

[Chunkylover 26]

If you don't want better players on your team that's entirely your opinion. Those guys might just turn a switch and they've been playing better of late, but I'd still enjoy seeing Neil in the Wing's uniform and help motivate the physical game that a lot of Detroit fans yearn for.

I'm not against him playing here I just don't believe we need him.

Wow, didn't know that Cleary, Helm and Sammy were 4th liners -- well, maybe Helm, but you are right -- look at his point production he is much better then the run of the mill 4th liner.

Chunky I also want to say that you come up with some of the most bizarre and irrational explanations and arguments. I am pretty bad myself -- I have no problem admitting it. But you are on a different level then anyone I have come across on these boards.

Character assassin! Libel!

I included those guys because they all rotated through the bottom six. And what's so crazy about being confident in this teams ability to compete in the playoffs? Haven't the last two post-seasons proved that yet? I know the statistics do.

[Grim 5]

If Kenny's gonna make a move, I hope he can dig up a good physical defenseman somewhere. our defense turns to mush when Stuart is out... Kenny shouldnt pin all his hopes on Stuart's back, literally.

[Cruiser008 37]

If Kenny's gonna make a move, I hope he can dig up a good physical defenseman somewhere. our defense turns to mush when Stuart is out... Kenny shouldnt pin all his hopes on Stuart's back, literally.

The Hockey News' proposed Red Wing trade

The second proposal in the link above says that we trade Cory Emmerton and a 5th round pick for ATL D-man Niclas Havelid.

Niclas Havelid's states

GP 60

G 2

A 11

Pts 13

+/- 0

PIM 42

SOG 39

TOI/G 20:55

HITS 35

BLK 160

I like this proposal a lot as Havelid is a solid defensive D-man (ideal for the 2nd pairing) who blocks a ton of shots and Emmerton is rated as only our 10th best prospect by www.redwingscentral.com and 13th best prospect on Hockey's Future.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Cruiser008

[Chunkylover 26]

Wow, didn't know that Cleary, Helm and Sammy were 4th liners -- well, maybe Helm, but you are right -- look at his point production he is much better then the run of the mill 4th liner.

In 44 games Neil has 2 goals, 4 assists for 6 points with 10:51 TOI P/G and 5 total points in the last five playoff rounds. At that rate he isn't better than any of our fourth liners (Draper 5-6-11, Maltby 5-5-10, Kopecky 3-9-12).

Maybe you should stick to the character assassinations because informed debate is not your strong suit.

[Dabura 12,207]

In 44 games Neil has 2 goals, 4 assists for 6 points with 10:51 TOI P/G and 5 total points in the last five playoff rounds. At that rate he isn't better than any of our fourth liners (Draper 5-6-11, Maltby 5-5-10, Kopecky 3-9-12).

Hockey is played on ice, not paper.

If you don't think he'd be a good addition, cool. But if you've seen him in action, and if you've seen our bottom six in action, you'd know he's worth more than an offhand dismissal. The package Neil offers could be of great value to this team in its postseason run.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

In 44 games Neil has 2 goals, 4 assists for 6 points with 10:51 TOI P/G and 5 total points in the last five playoff rounds. At that rate he isn't better than any of our fourth liners (Draper 5-6-11, Maltby 5-5-10, Kopecky 3-9-12).

Maybe you should stick to the character assassinations because informed debate is not your strong suit.

A 4th liners job isnt to score points, Neil is a more impact player then any of Malts, Drapes or Kopecky. If he was making the argument over points, well thats not good. But if it was purely better, he's better then all 3. (And I do love Drapes and Malts, but they havent had great years.)

[Grim 5]

I was thinking somewhere along the lines of...

1. Derek Morris (PHX)

2. Jordan Leopold (COL)

3. Jason Smith (OTT)

4. Sean O'Donnell (LAK)

5. Marek Malik (TBL)

one of the above.

[sureWhyNot 19]

In 44 games Neil has 2 goals, 4 assists for 6 points with 10:51 TOI P/G and 5 total points in the last five playoff rounds. At that rate he isn't better than any of our fourth liners (Draper 5-6-11, Maltby 5-5-10, Kopecky 3-9-12).

Maybe you should stick to the character assassinations because informed debate is not your strong suit.

Ha ha you are something else. Surely when you did your quick Yahoo Sports search of Chris Neil you saw that in the three previous years before this season Neil had 33, 28 and 20 point performances. You can see the numbers slide as the team he plays for, Ottawa, began to fall from their upper overall status in the East.

Did you notice those numbers? I am just curious? Or did ya miss them on account of getting all excited to run back here and tell everyone his numbers from this year, seeing as though you thought they would help you make a point.

So this is what I would like you to do -- run a along and you find the numbers for the three players you named Draper, Maltby and Kopecky and you tell me whether any one of them or Neil has been more productive for their given team over the past 2-3 years. I would love for you, since you love "crunching numbers", figure out if their is any correlation between playing on a great team (Red Wings) and a team that has steadily fallen from the ranks over the past 2-3 years (Ottawa) and whether or not they may or may not have anything to do with Neils numbers.

As far as character assassination goes -- you really don't need to waorry about what I say, you do a killer job of it on your own every time you post something.

[AtomicPunk 296]

Come on, admit it, all you Chris Neal lovers out there want him here because you wanna see a few more scraps.

Don't ya?

It's ok, just say it.

[sureWhyNot 19]

Come on, admit it, all you Chris Neal lovers out there want him here because you wanna see a few more scraps.

Don't ya?

It's ok, just say it.

s*** ya I do -- but I also have come to terms that this team doesn't have room for a fighter who offers nothing else in terms of productivity. Neil seems to be able to both, at least in comparison to a lot of tougher guys out there who scrap as much as he does.

I mean would I rather have a guy who scraps from time to time and is a better hockey player in terms of skill then say Maltby and Kopecky? Hell yes I would.

[CMatt89 63]

Crazy as it sounds....I have a feeling Franzen may be shipped out...For draft picks even, maybe.. I dont see any goalie activity happening, which is good. Ozzy's a vet, he'll come around. We do need a Dallas Drake type guy though. His presence is missed this season. Or bring Downey up. But for as big as Franzen is..he needs to be our big hitter, and able to drop the gloves.... for the money he's going to demand... We can afford to lose a finesse scorer. Maybe a Franzen, Kopecky deal..for a defenseman, picks, or a real grinder...not a Red Wings type grinder haha.

Holmstrom - Datsyuk - Zetterberg

Hossa - Filpulla - Cleary

Hudler - Helm - Sammy

Leino - Draper - Downey

Maltby - Kopecky

This forward lineup will win us a cup again for sure. Cleary can be interchanged with the 2nd and 4th line..Leino can fit in either line as well. With Franzen, we would drop Downey, have a Cleary - Draper - Leino 4th line...if its cap friendly...

Edited February 25, 2009 by CMatt89

[Dabura 12,207]

Just for the record, I'm not a Chris Neil lover, and I've had titanic fights with LGWers about the "need" (imo, the lack thereof) for fighters in this lineup.

I just think he'd be a great addition. Simple as that.

[miller76 463]

I've had titanic fights with LGWers about the "need" (imo, the lack thereof) for fighters in this lineup.

really? i have never noticed!

But yeah, I wouldn't mind having someone in the line up that can has more grit then Datsyuk!

[Zedd 0]

and how about bringing a guy who is hunger to win his first Stanley Cup and can add this kind of motivation to the whole team. We only have Hossa, Leino and Conklin without a ring and I wonder if the others players aren't a little bit less hunger than last year ...

I think this could be a factor in the playoff... and you guys what do you think about it ?

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

Hockey is played on ice, not paper.

If you don't think he'd be a good addition, cool. But if you've seen him in action, and if you've seen our bottom six in action, you'd know he's worth more than an offhand dismissal. The package Neil offers could be of great value to this team in its postseason run.

QFT. Another typical LGWer response, copying and pasting stats from Wiki and thinking they are be all end all without knowing anything about the player. Anyone who knows anything about Chris Neil knows that on top of being able to scrap he brings other intangibles that currently aren't represented on the current 4th line. These type of assets that were brought to the table by Drake last year are no where to be found this season.

[Winged_Wheeler 3]

No changes other then firing Brad McCrimmon.

The Red Wings have some of the best players in the world,

Pavel Datsyuk

Henrik Zetterberg

Marian Hossa

Johan Franzen

Nick Lidstrom

Motivation is all they need.

[Chunkylover 26]

Ha ha you are something else. Surely when you did your quick Yahoo Sports search of Chris Neil you saw that in the three previous years before this season Neil had 33, 28 and 20 point performances. You can see the numbers slide as the team he plays for, Ottawa, began to fall from their upper overall status in the East.

Actually I went to NHL.com. I only bothered to look at his post-season production and what he's done this season because we aren't getting 2006 Chris Neil. If I was to argue that Draper is better than Neil based on his 20+ goal season and his Selke, you would rightly counter that that was many years ago and he's not the same player.

My point, as it has ever been, is that we already have a team that knows how to play playoff hockey: tough yet smart, physical but not penalty prone. I've made that point countless times already. Can we please debate that?

Did you notice those numbers? I am just curious? Or did ya miss them on account of getting all excited to run back here and tell everyone his numbers from this year, seeing as though you thought they would help you make a point.

Well, they did help me make my point, that being a response to your claim:

look at his point production he is much better then the run of the mill 4th liner.

I never made this about point production, you did.

So this is what I would like you to do -- run a along and you find the numbers for the three players you named Draper, Maltby and Kopecky and you tell me whether any one of them or Neil has been more productive for their given team over the past 2-3 years. I would love for you, since you love "crunching numbers", figure out if their is any correlation between playing on a great team (Red Wings) and a team that has steadily fallen from the ranks over the past 2-3 years (Ottawa) and whether or not they may or may not have anything to do with Neils numbers.

Since you again are making this a debate about points, I will indulge your request. It would appear that in the case of Maltby and Kopecky playing on a good team doesn't pad one's stats, although like Neil this year, Kopy's point totals have been hampered by injury. Draper's point production since the lockout is nearly identical to Neil's. It would seem that in the case of the latter two players, there is a correlation between playing on a good team and producing on the score sheet.

I believe Ken Holland knows best how to manage this roster. If he trades for Neil, I'll certainly be happy because like you I appreciate the physical nature of his game. However based on the last seven playoff rounds the Wings have been in, I am confident that this team already plays with enough physicality to have success in the post-season. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

[Carman 387]

If he trades for Neil, I'll certainly be happy because like you I appreciate the physical nature of his game. However based on the last seven playoff rounds the Wings have been in, I am confident that this team already plays with enough physicality to have success in the post-season. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

Nope I'm not. The main player in last years run was Drake. Losing that physical power forward is going to be pretty apparent in the playoffs in my opinion. I can not confidently say that Draper, Maltby, or the 2009 Kopecky will provide the Red Wings with enough physical presence to wear down the opposing team. It's been evident all season, for instance the lowest +/- on San Jose is about 10 point higher the Drapers'. I really think we could use an improvement on the 4th line, if for nothing else motivation that they need to improve.

[Cruiser008 37]

and how about bringing a guy who is hunger to win his first Stanley Cup and can add this kind of motivation to the whole team. We only have Hossa, Leino and Conklin without a ring and I wonder if the others players aren't a little bit less hunger than last year ...

I think this could be a factor in the playoff... and you guys what do you think about it ?

Another reason why we should trade for Niklas Havelid. The guy was an important cog in Anaheim's run to the finals in 2003.... got to within a whisker of the cup but came up just short in game 7 of the SCF. During the Detroit series he was part of the D-corps that shut down the likes of Shanahan, Fedorov, Hull et al which is no small feat. Morever he's familiar with Babcock who coached him in Anaheim.

[Chunkylover 26]

Nope I'm not. The main player in last years run was Drake. Losing that physical power forward is going to be pretty apparent in the playoffs in my opinion. I can not confidently say that Draper, Maltby, or the 2009 Kopecky will provide the Red Wings with enough physical presence to wear down the opposing team. It's been evident all season, for instance the lowest +/- on San Jose is about 10 point higher the Drapers'. I really think we could use an improvement on the 4th line, if for nothing else motivation that they need to improve.

Yeah they are terrible in the +/-, but the whole team has really let up on the tight-checking defense that got them through last season.

Drake was good for us in the playoffs, but do you think he was the only reason Maltby and Draper played better in the playoffs than in the regular season? Kopecky is an unknown. I can see him taking a lot of dumb penalties just as easily as I can see him being effective.

How do you rate the entire teams physical play in the playoffs? Last year our third and fourth liners contributed the odd goal while playing 6-10 grinding minutes per game. Those were definitely important, but I rate the physical play of guys like Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Franzen, Kronwall and Stuart as more important because they are wearing on the opponents top players.

[Carman 387]

Yeah they are terrible in the +/-, but the whole team has really let up on the tight-checking defense that got them through last season.

Drake was good for us in the playoffs, but do you think he was the only reason Maltby and Draper played better in the playoffs than in the regular season? Kopecky is an unknown. I can see him taking a lot of dumb penalties just as easily as I can see him being effective.

How do you rate the entire teams physical play in the playoffs? Last year our third and fourth liners contributed the odd goal while playing 6-10 grinding minutes per game. Those were definitely important, but I rate the physical play of guys like Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Franzen, Kronwall and Stuart as more important because they are wearing on the opponents top players.

I really respect your opinion, and I'm definitely not going to say that Drake was the only reason we won, but I do think he was a very important piece. He brought a physical leadership and drive to win the cup that helped the other players see a new perspective other then "this is what is was like in 97' ". I feel as though "new blood" like Neil could go a very long way to inspire this team to the next level(Only a few people on our team are fighting for their first cup, none are "grinders"). I'm not saying we couldn't just turn on a switch, but I have a very fair and objective perspective as a fan, and I find it hard to trust players no matter how much they've done for me in the past. The past is the past and it should stay as a good memory. Until they prove themselves to me this season I'll look for ways to improve my team.

Also our team as a whole have very good +/-'s the only people that are - are Tomas Kopecky, Darren McCarty,Niklas Kronwall,Darren Helm, Kirk Maltby,Derek Meech, and Kris Draper.

[Chunkylover 26]

I really respect your opinion, and I'm definitely not going to say that Drake was the only reason we won, but I do think he was a very important piece. He brought a physical leadership and drive to win the cup that helped the other players see a new perspective other then "this is what is was like in 97' ". I feel as though "new blood" like Neil could go a very long way to inspire this team to the next level(Only a few people on our team are fighting for their first cup, none are "grinders"). I'm not saying we couldn't just turn on a switch, but I have a very fair and objective perspective as a fan, and I find it hard to trust players no matter how much they've done for me in the past. The past is the past and it should stay as a good memory. Until they prove themselves to me this season I'll look for ways to improve my team.

Also our team as a whole have very good +/-'s the only people that are - are Tomas Kopecky, Darren McCarty,Niklas Kronwall,Darren Helm, Kirk Maltby,Derek Meech, and Kris Draper.

The more I discuss this the more amenable I find myself to the proposition of trading for Neil. I have my doubts that he'll be available for a second round pick alone, however, since the last few seasons have been seller's markets. If he can be had, he definitely would bring some spark (remember the Spark Line when Avery was here? What a lame name).

Our bottom six were pretty interchangeable last season, but Draper will likely center the third line with some combination of Samuelsson, Hudler, or Cleary, and Helm will center the fourth with Maltby, Neil, or Kopecky (or Leino, or McCarty...). Those are definitely good options.

I guess the main thing is we won't really be making a radical change. Just adding Neil for ten minutes a game. Holland knows best what the value of his physical presence will be. Do you think that will be enough to make the rest of the team, underachievers like Kronwall, play with the same intensity they had last year?

[Guest Crymson]

The question "Is standing pat really an option?" pretty much sums up, for me, how much many of us have subconsciously grown to expect from this team every year, and especially after last year.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

The more I discuss this the more amenable I find myself to the proposition of trading for Neil. I have my doubts that he'll be available for a second round pick alone, however, since the last few seasons have been seller's markets. If he can be had, he definitely would bring some spark (remember the Spark Line when Avery was here? What a lame name).

Our bottom six were pretty interchangeable last season, but Draper will likely center the third line with some combination of Samuelsson, Hudler, or Cleary, and Helm will center the fourth with Maltby, Neil, or Kopecky (or Leino, or McCarty...). Those are definitely good options.

I guess the main thing is we won't really be making a radical change. Just adding Neil for ten minutes a game. Holland knows best what the value of his physical presence will be. Do you think that will be enough to make the rest of the team, underachievers like Kronwall, play with the same intensity they had last year?

If Drake could and did (I shouldn't say alone because I think Stewart helped), I would be willing to bet that Neil would as well and probably more so.

[Chunkylover 26]

If Drake could and did (I shouldn't say alone because I think Stewart helped), I would be willing to bet that Neil would as well and probably more so.

Hm, maybe I'm undervaluing that role. I know players always complement the grinders and brawlers, and I don't disavow their necessity, I just attributed last year's success more to the experience of losing to the Ducks than the hunger of the Drake.

In terms of leadership though I'd rank Neil lower than Drake.

If he does come here, I hope guys like Franzen, Cleary, Helm, Sammy, Draper, Maltby, and Kopy don't see it as an opportunity to soften up. It'll take more than Chris Neil to grind out a deep playoff run.