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#101 Cern

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 07:29 PM

QUOTE (Shoreline @ February 28, 2009 - 07:46AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
While I've praised streams like ATDHE posts like this are also making me defend Center Ice.

The NHL has it so you don't get out of market games for free for a reason. People in Detroit (or in a certain area that FOX determines is the local market) who have DTV/Dish/Cable, for instance, generally get FSD for free. Just like I get Sharks games for free. In-market games. However, for out of market games that aren't regional/national (Versus/NBC/CBC), why SHOULD you get them for free? They pay to broadcast the game. Hence, it is them who controls distribution. By in essence taking a broadcast one does not have the rights to and rebroadcasting it, ATDHE is highly vulnerable to a lawsuit, and every single site or person that rebroadcasts it. And in motherpucker.ca's case, they even wanted to profit from taking a rebroadcast of a rebroadcast of a broadcast.

Even if you only watch Red Wings games, that's, say, 70 games a season most people get with the Wings, not counting those with Versus/NBC. $150 at 70 games is $2 per game. If you can afford a friggen internet connection to be making posts as to why watching an illegal rebroadcast is a-ok, then you certainly can afford $2 a game. There's clearly some fault for the NHL in not providing adequate services especially to people not in the US/Canada (in Europe they ARE offered some service but I don't even know the price or availability so can't comment), but for those of us IN these countries, I find it laughable as to how $2/game is outrageous. Compare that to the same price for NFL Sunday Ticket for 16 games. That's nearly $10 a game even if you only watch your team (if they are out of market). If you want free, move to the wide area that gets FSD for free being in their local market. For years I had to only watch Wings games on rabbit ears when they played the Sharks. Then when we got cable, on ESPN too. There's no law that says people have the right to watch every Wings game, less than that, for free. They could just cut all the broadcasts people are partaking in piracy to and they'd have no way at all of watching it. Logic dictates the way they keep money coming in is advertisements and people paying for out of market games. There's always free internet radio offered and even by the NHL where the costs to run it are significantly lower. Bitching about them taking down sites that pirate/rebroadcast illegally is just retarded. If one is going to get something for free, especially illegally, have the decency not to ***** and just enjoy the time you have it.



If you have satellite (Dish/DTV), you can buy a sports package for US market games and get all the FSD you like, and likely every other US team's behind the scenes as well. The behind the scenes stuff and pre/post game stuff isn't part of the license agreement between the NHL and the carriers of the broadcasts for out of market games.


Borderline tl;dr, but I'll give you this:

One, Fair enough for the explanation why they don't broadcast out-of-region games for free, but that DOSEN'T explain why they can't offer some kind of team-specific online CI service at a reduced price that I probably WOULD be willing to pay for, which is what my post was discussing in the first place. At the end of the day Center Ice as-is demands I pay for services I don't want and ergo have no desire to pay for. Why should I pay 2 bucks a game when that money is only going towards a tiny fraction of the games I'm going to bother with? It's like Costco, it's only a good deal if you actually have a need to have obscenely-sized portions, which I don't.

Two, no, I can't afford an internet connection. Neither do I have a TV with cable, let alone satellite. If it wasn't for the university's internet service I'd be completely unable to get online.

Edited by Cern, 28 February 2009 - 07:36 PM.

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#102 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 07:41 PM

QUOTE (Shoreline @ February 28, 2009 - 06:11PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
GameCenter. Since you have a broadband connection you can use that. Of course, no guarantee of every game, but s*** happens. Ask your local analog->soon-to-be-digital carriers to pick up the Wild games. I remember when I was stuck with analog for the Sharks/Wings games sometimes they were blacked out. That's life.


I very much prefer to watch hockey on TV screen rather than computer. My main point was that I would like to have a single source for all NHL games and not have to worry all this. I am not sure what NHL is trying to gain by blacking out local games on Center Ice.


#103 Shoreline

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 07:43 PM

QUOTE (Pskov Wings Fan @ February 28, 2009 - 04:41PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I very much prefer to watch hockey on TV screen rather than computer. My main point was that I would like to have a single source for all NHL games and not have to worry all this. I am not sure what NHL is trying to gain by blacking out local games on Center Ice.

It isn't the NHL that decides that.

QUOTE (Cern @ February 28, 2009 - 04:29PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Borderline tl;dr, but I'll give you this:

One, Fair enough for the explanation why they don't broadcast out-of-region games for free, but that DOSEN'T explain why they can't offer some kind of team-specific online CI service at a reduced price that I probably WOULD be willing to pay for, which is what my post was discussing in the first place. At the end of the day Center Ice as-is demands I pay for services I don't want and ergo have no desire to pay for. Why should I pay 2 bucks a game when that money is only going towards a tiny fraction of the games I'm going to bother with? It's like Costco, it's only a good deal if you actually have a need to have obscenely-sized portions, which I don't.

Two, no, I can't afford an internet connection. Neither do I have a TV with cable, let alone satellite. If it wasn't for the university's internet service I'd be completely unable to get online.

GameCenter. If you can't even afford that I dunno what to say. Again, I dunno who designated watching NHL games a right. It ain't that expensive.

Edited by Shoreline, 28 February 2009 - 07:47 PM.


#104 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 07:49 PM

QUOTE (Shoreline @ February 28, 2009 - 06:43PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It isn't the NHL that decides that.


Well, who does?


#105 Electrophile

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 07:51 PM

I wish the Red Wings provided a video service that allowed out-of-market fans to watch their games online, for a minimal fee. That way fans that don't live in the FSN Detroit viewing area would be able to watch the games that aren't broadcast on national stations, like Versus, ESPN and NBC.


Hell, all teams should do this. That way, you only pay for what you want; the games of the team you root for.

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#106 Cern

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 07:53 PM

QUOTE (Shoreline @ February 28, 2009 - 04:43PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
GameCenter. If you can't even afford that I dunno what to say. Again, I dunno who designated watching NHL games a right. It ain't that expensive.

You could theoretically afford to buy a $30 candy bar, does that mean you'd still suck it up and pay for it under the delusional pretense that it's a great deal? Just because you CAN afford it dosen't stop it from being a ripoff.

I'm only interested in essentially $1 a month worth of Gamecenter content, I might as well be wiping my ass with the other $29

Edited by Cern, 28 February 2009 - 07:57 PM.

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#107 Shoreline

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 07:56 PM

QUOTE (Pskov Wings Fan @ February 28, 2009 - 04:49PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, who does?

The NHL has it so blackouts are determined either by the team or the local carrier. Isn't like the NFL who imposes a league-wide rule that blacks out a local area's broadcast if they don't sell their games out. This is just pertaining to local carriers only, not distributors like GameCenter who have a bit more hoops to jump through.

QUOTE (Cern @ February 28, 2009 - 04:53PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You could theoretically afford to buy a $30 candy bar, does that mean you'd still suck it up and pay for it under the delusional pretense that it's a great deal?

I'm only interested in essentially $1 a month worth of Gamecenter content, I might as well be wiping my ass with the other $29

Well, there's always Yahoo games, a few per year, and NHL Radio. You aren't really doing without here so I dunno why I, also a college student, should feel terribly bad.

Edited by Shoreline, 28 February 2009 - 07:57 PM.


#108 Cern

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 07:56 PM

QUOTE (Electrophile @ February 28, 2009 - 04:51PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wish the Red Wings provided a video service that allowed out-of-market fans to watch their games online, for a minimal fee. That way fans that don't live in the FSN Detroit viewing area would be able to watch the games that aren't broadcast on national stations, like Versus, ESPN and NBC.


Hell, all teams should do this. That way, you only pay for what you want; the games of the team you root for.

At least SOMEbody is figuring out what the f*** I'm saying instead of making some moralfag/NHL e-representative knee-jerk response to any post that suggests even the slightest resistance to Center Ice. Emphasis on 'minimal fee', I'd be the first in line to subscribe to a service to this if made avaliable.
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#109 Shoreline

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 07:58 PM

QUOTE (Cern @ February 28, 2009 - 04:56PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
At least SOMEbody is figuring out what the f*** I'm saying instead of making some moralfag/NHL e-representative knee-jerk response to any post that suggests even the slightest resistance to Center Ice. Emphasis on 'minimal fee', I'd be the first in line to subscribe to a service to this if made avaliable.

Try to stay up with the argument. I've made praises to ATDHE and criticized the NHL but it's also hilarious posters like yourself feel like you're entitled to free Center Ice.

#110 HD30

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 08:00 PM

As a poor college student in Mexico that's absolutely fanatical about the wings, atdhe getting the C&D along with not finding any other streams, is one of the worst things that has happened to me all semester up there with getting my new laptop stolen.

:(

#111 CanadaBoy

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 08:20 PM

Thanks to Namingway!:

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#112 Cern

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 08:20 PM

QUOTE (Shoreline @ February 28, 2009 - 04:56PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, there's always Yahoo games, a few per year

I'm not in the US, I don't even get the Yahoo games. As far as broadcasts are concerned being in Canada is generally only advantageous if you feel like watching Toronto lose every other night.

Whatever the case, it makes absolutely no difference. You can keep overpaying and riding your moral high horse if it really makes you feel better, the fact of the matter is unless the NHL decides to commit financial suicide, blow itself up into the mass-media stone age, and eliminate TV broadcasting of games entirely - no Versus, no HNIC, no FSN, *nothing* - there's always going to be somebody on the planet streaming games in the dark corner of the internet. No doubt that ATDHE going under has made things inconvenient but at the end of the day all it really means is that now it'll take five minutes to find a stream instead of five seconds. Am I *entitled* to "free Center Ice"? The fact of the matter that CI's all-team format isn't something I want in the first place aside, no, but since streaming is essentially an unavoidable reality of the internet age it's stupid to think that I should bleed 30 bucks a month unnecessarily when the complete and utter inavoidability of leaks renders it pointless. But hey, keep stamping your feet and telling me how wrong I am, I'll contemplate putting a moment aside in the first intermission of the Wings-Preds game to give one tenth of a s***.
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#113 Shoreline

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 08:26 PM

QUOTE (Cern @ February 28, 2009 - 05:20PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not in the US, I don't even get the Yahoo games. As far as broadcasts are concerned being in Canada is generally only advantageous if you feel like watching Toronto lose every other night.

Whatever the case, it makes absolutely no difference. You can keep overpaying and riding your moral high horse if it really makes you feel better, the fact of the matter is unless the NHL decides to commit financial suicide, blow itself up into the mass-media stone age, and eliminate TV broadcasting of games entirely - no Versus, no HNIC, no FSN, *nothing* - there's always going to be somebody on the planet streaming games in the dark corner of the internet. No doubt that ATDHE going under has made things inconvenient but at the end of the day all it really means is that now it'll take five minutes to find a stream instead of five seconds. Am I *entitled* to "free Center Ice"? The fact of the matter that CI's all-team format isn't something I want in the first place aside, no, but since streaming is essentially an unavoidable reality of the internet age it's stupid to think that I should bleed 30 bucks a month unnecessarily when the complete and utter inavoidability of leaks renders it pointless. But hey, keep stamping your feet and telling me how wrong I am, I'll contemplate putting a moment aside in the first intermission of the Wings-Preds game to give one tenth of a s***.

That's great. Then there's no need to make excuses for not paying since it's entirely obvious you likely wouldn't pay even IF you had the money since you don't give a s*** either way.

I don't feel bad for paying for a service I enjoy when it's only $2 per Red Wing game and far less if one counts all the other games I watch. Call it a moral high horse or whatever, but at least I'm realistic in not wanting s*** that shouldn't be for free, for free, just because I don't agree with the price. The NHL should be better at providing their service but certainly not be listening to people who want their service for free.

#114 shoe

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 11:45 PM

QUOTE (Shoreline @ February 28, 2009 - 08:26PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's great. Then there's no need to make excuses for not paying since it's entirely obvious you likely wouldn't pay even IF you had the money since you don't give a s*** either way.

I don't feel bad for paying for a service I enjoy when it's only $2 per Red Wing game and far less if one counts all the other games I watch. Call it a moral high horse or whatever, but at least I'm realistic in not wanting s*** that shouldn't be for free, for free, just because I don't agree with the price. The NHL should be better at providing their service but certainly not be listening to people who want their service for free.



I see you using the word free here a lot I have a curve to throw at you. Newspapers online are free, weather channel.com is free, tsn espn both cable channels but their online info is free. Free info with advertisements slapped all over the place banners pop ups ads up and down the side of the page kind of like what is on this sites page.

So why cant online streaming work this way, we the viewers are gobbling up all those advertisements on the boards and Im sure the comercials too. Ive never seen a game on NHL centre ice or the NHL gameday live but I bet they have comercials someones getting paid and when you subscribe now your paying twice really.

So why cant a game be "free"


#115 T.Low

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 03:42 AM

atdhe always set off my McAfee Protection as a bad link. I'm suprised no one else seems to have had this problem?

#116 Shoreline

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 04:14 AM

QUOTE (shoe @ February 28, 2009 - 08:45PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I see you using the word free here a lot I have a curve to throw at you. Newspapers online are free, weather channel.com is free, tsn espn both cable channels but their online info is free. Free info with advertisements slapped all over the place banners pop ups ads up and down the side of the page kind of like what is on this sites page.

So why cant online streaming work this way, we the viewers are gobbling up all those advertisements on the boards and Im sure the comercials too. Ive never seen a game on NHL centre ice or the NHL gameday live but I bet they have comercials someones getting paid and when you subscribe now your paying twice really.

So why cant a game be "free"

This opens up a major can of worms that really will complicate the discussion. Commercials alone do not pay for content, especially content delivered over several mediums -- coax, satellite, broadband, fiber-optics, etc. Firstly, any channel that broadcasts games pays the NHL just to be able to legally gain rights to broadcast, and likely so does the medium that is used to broadcast it. They have money to make up for there just to start off with. Do you think advertising makes up for all of this money spent just to air NHL games, plus other functioning costs like salaries and marketing of their own, not to mention costs of running content via satellite or over the internet? Of course not. Do you think ads pay entirely for this website either? No. Subscription based revenue is the next large piece of the pie, even if, varying somewhat, it may not be as large as ad revenue (i.e. commercials), for service based entertainment. There needs to be in some fashion a subscription based revenue to make up for all of the people getting s*** for free, and the larger the company, the more diversified their grasp is on different markets (such as advertising, content delivery, etc.). And people getting s*** for free obviously should get less content than those paying. This has really never been otherwise nor should it be. However, Cern thinks he is entitled to this for free despite the costs to even run the service.

Edited by Shoreline, 01 March 2009 - 04:17 AM.


#117 Seraph

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 04:50 AM

QUOTE (Shoreline @ March 1, 2009 - 04:14AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This opens up a major can of worms that really will complicate the discussion. Commercials alone do not pay for content, especially content delivered over several mediums -- coax, satellite, broadband, fiber-optics, etc. Firstly, any channel that broadcasts games pays the NHL just to be able to legally gain rights to broadcast, and likely so does the medium that is used to broadcast it. They have money to make up for there just to start off with. Do you think advertising makes up for all of this money spent just to air NHL games, plus other functioning costs like salaries and marketing of their own, not to mention costs of running content via satellite or over the internet? Of course not. Do you think ads pay entirely for this website either? No. Subscription based revenue is the next large piece of the pie, even if, varying somewhat, it may not be as large as ad revenue (i.e. commercials), for service based entertainment. There needs to be in some fashion a subscription based revenue to make up for all of the people getting s*** for free, and the larger the company, the more diversified their grasp is on different markets (such as advertising, content delivery, etc.). And people getting s*** for free obviously should get less content than those paying. This has really never been otherwise nor should it be. However, Cern thinks he is entitled to this for free despite the costs to even run the service.


You make a great point. But the fact is that we're in a new age now. Information, entertainment, and knowledge are more dynamic these days. The respective industries need to realize this and adapt along with changing times. The music industry has done this to a degree. Now instead of relying solely on the hard copy, CD sales, they are offering the ability to buy songs online. Something similar should be done for sports and TV. In the end, even what the music industry has done will fail. Information is just too fluid these days. These corporations need to rethink their market strategy completely and come up with a new way of making money. Because enforcing the old way just won't work. I'm still watching streams online for free. Nothing has changed. And in a few weeks, a new site will be up that'll provide the same feeds. They can only delay it, not destroy it. Sure, you can talk about ethics, and whether it's right or wrong to watch games online for free. But the fact of the matter is no one cares. If something is free, it'll be consumed by at least someone, whether it's legal or not, right or wrong. A fundamental change needs to occur to accommodate this truth and allow these companies to also make a profit.

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#118 Andy Pred 48

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 06:58 AM

The Dallas games are still being broadcast, not that you'll want to watch them but I watched them throw away the game to the Ducks yesterday then watched Moen paste
Ott at the final hooter. Their game today is also being broadcasted, has Texas got some sort of barrier around them?
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#119 Shoreline

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 04:00 PM

QUOTE (The Nephilim @ March 1, 2009 - 01:50AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You make a great point. But the fact is that we're in a new age now. Information, entertainment, and knowledge are more dynamic these days. The respective industries need to realize this and adapt along with changing times. The music industry has done this to a degree. Now instead of relying solely on the hard copy, CD sales, they are offering the ability to buy songs online. Something similar should be done for sports and TV. In the end, even what the music industry has done will fail. Information is just too fluid these days. These corporations need to rethink their market strategy completely and come up with a new way of making money. Because enforcing the old way just won't work. I'm still watching streams online for free. Nothing has changed. And in a few weeks, a new site will be up that'll provide the same feeds. They can only delay it, not destroy it. Sure, you can talk about ethics, and whether it's right or wrong to watch games online for free. But the fact of the matter is no one cares. If something is free, it'll be consumed by at least someone, whether it's legal or not, right or wrong. A fundamental change needs to occur to accommodate this truth and allow these companies to also make a profit.

What do you mean adapt with the times? By that do you mean lose money to give people all the games for free? You already get enough games for free. No massive service of any kind is ever going to tailor their packages to every single individual. It doesn't happen. The league caters to a wide audience -- and $2 per game at MOST, along with all of the free games that come via satellite/cable/Yahoo, PLUS the 3 or 4 Center Ice previews during the season (about a week at a time), and other promotions like 3 months of GameCenter FREE with the purchase of a hockey game, sounds like they are doing all they can. How else can they adapt with the times? I've seen this excuse so many times as to why people simply expect to get s*** for free and it's the worst excuse ever. You haven't even discussed how they are supposed to even make money since advertising cannot solely cover their expenses. Again, money is exchanged countless times to pay for content. All I see here is a logic of entitlement and I have no idea why you think you are entitled to free hockey at the expense of service providers.

#120 StayStevieStay

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 04:29 PM

I agree they need to get with the times and by get with the times yes I do mean FREE.

10 years ago music suits would do anything to prevent a leak of an album.

Nowdays a CD wont sell unless it's leaked !

If Bettman wants more americans watching hockey then what better way then the internet? HELLO?

Im sorry but at the end of the day i'm not paying to watch a hockey game on my computer 6 times a year just because Center ice and TSN2 are retarded once a month...






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