How do you fix this team's defensive problems?

Yzerman191 · March 1, 2009

First off, let me start by saying that this thread is NOT about goaltending. If you don't think that the defense is the problem, and you'd rather blame the goaltenders, please just move along.

As for the majority of us, we've all acknowledged at some point in the season (and what better time to talk about it?) that there is just something off with this team's defense. While I've noticed a decline in overall team defense from last season (which has improved a little once D and Z got back together, IMO), it seems the defensemen contribute to that decline just as much.

Personally, I think Lilja (not counting tonight) and Lidstrom are the only 'Wings on the back end that have performed as expected. You might be able to argue that Lidstrom has declined a little from last season, but he's still been stellar. And even after a game like this, it's hard to argue that Lilja hasn't been worth his salary or roster spot. Rafalski has been great offensively, however, his defensive game has seen a few costly lapses over the season. Generally, I think he's had a decent season.

My main concern is Stuart and Kronwall. Both have really underachieved thus far. Kronwall has refrained from delivering bone-crushing (or any whatsoever) hits, he's been streaky offensively, and oftentimes, he's been atrocious defensively. I think Stuart delivers fewer hits than we expected him to, doesn't contribute much offensively (although that was never one of his strengths), and has been making some pretty bad decisions with and without the puck for most of the season. These two are my beginning to scare me. Some nights you think they're finally turning the corner, and then the next you wonder why the hell they're making a combined total of 7M.

Personally, I don't think we need to bring in another defenseman (not that we could, since half of our D has a NTC) I think Lidstrom should be paired with Kronwall. To me, when a team has two first lines, it makes sense to compose your defense pairings the same way. With Lidstrom and Rafalski being our best two guys, I think we should split them up and put one with Stuart and one with Kronwall. I'd like to see a Lidstrom-Kronwall pair, and a Rafalski-Stuart pair. We've seen the Nick-Nik pairing once this season, and that was when Kronwall went on a tear offensively. I think that pairing allows Kronwall to play to his strength, and jump into the play offensively knowing that the best defenseman in hockey is covering his back. The Rafalski-Stuart pair might excel because Raffy is an offensive defenseman and Stuart is a stay at home defenseman. Both pairings also see a little more variety added to each line (considerable offensive potential, solid defense, and a little physicality).

So, what do you all think? What changes, if any, should the Red Wings make? Swap the pairings? Leave everything, and hope when push comes to shove they'll snap out of it?

xBrave_Heartx · March 1, 2009

Not playing back to back games.

Not taking teams easy.

Z and D for the C · March 1, 2009

We've seen that we play well when we need to. We're fine.

Cruiser008 · March 1, 2009

We need to pick up another solid defensive d-man (doesn't have to be physical but must have NHL-caliber puck skills) at the trading deadline.

I fully expect Kenny to address this.

Shaman · March 1, 2009

Lilja and Lids the only 2 solid Dmen? watch the same game we all did? Lilja was -4 second worse on the team (Meech being -5 and now -11 on the season in 30 games), Lids and Raffy were the only 2 that were decent.

The real problem

MEECH, he plays 2 positions, well thats great, it would be nice if he could play one decently, instead the Wings gave up a good stay at home D man for Meech who is horrid at 2 different positions.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Shaman464

Heaton · March 1, 2009

We need to pick up another solid defensive d-man (doesn't have to be physical but must have NHL-caliber puck skills) at the trading deadline.
I fully expect Kenny to address this.

And play him where?

Yzerman191 · March 1, 2009

Lilja and Lids the only 2 solid Dmen? watch the same game we all did? Lilja was -4 second worse on the team (Meech being -5 and now -11 on the season in 30 games), Lids and Raffy were the only 2 that were decent.
The real problem

MEECH, he plays 2 positions, well thats great, it would be nice if he could play one decently, instead the Wings gave up a good stay at home D man for Meech who is horrid at 2 different positions.

I'm not talking about tonight. I'm talking about the entire season to date. IMO, Lidstrom and Lilja are the only two that performed at or exceeding the level that was expected of them. Of course, this statement might not go over so well following a game where Lilja was one of the worst players.

Also, I didn't bother including Meech. He won't be in for the playoffs unless we're plagued with a decent amount of injuries. I fully expect either Chelios or Lebda to be in over Meech, and if someone goes down, whoever is NOT playing out of those two will sub in.

evilmrt · March 1, 2009

First off, let me start by saying that this thread is NOT about goaltending. If you don't think that the defense is the problem, and you'd rather blame the goaltenders, please just move along.
As for the majority of us, we've all acknowledged at some point in the season (and what better time to talk about it?) that there is just something off with this team's defense. While I've noticed a decline in overall team defense from last season (which has improved a little once D and Z got back together, IMO), it seems the defensemen contribute to that decline just as much.

Personally, I think Lilja (not counting tonight) and Lidstrom are the only 'Wings on the back end that have performed as expected. You might be able to argue that Lidstrom has declined a little from last season, but he's still been stellar. And even after a game like this, it's hard to argue that Lilja hasn't been worth his salary or roster spot. Rafalski has been great offensively, however, his defensive game has seen a few costly lapses over the season. Generally, I think he's had a decent season.

My main concern is Stuart and Kronwall. Both have really underachieved thus far. Kronwall has refrained from delivering bone-crushing (or any whatsoever) hits, he's been streaky offensively, and oftentimes, he's been atrocious defensively. I think Stuart delivers fewer hits than we expected him to, doesn't contribute much offensively (although that was never one of his strengths), and has been making some pretty bad decisions with and without the puck for most of the season. These two are my beginning to scare me. Some nights you think they're finally turning the corner, and then the next you wonder why the hell they're making a combined total of 7M.

Personally, I don't think we need to bring in another defenseman (not that we could, since half of our D has a NTC) I think Lidstrom should be paired with Kronwall. To me, when a team has two first lines, it makes sense to compose your defense pairings the same way. With Lidstrom and Rafalski being our best two guys, I think we should split them up and put one with Stuart and one with Kronwall. I'd like to see a Lidstrom-Kronwall pair, and a Rafalski-Stuart pair. We've seen the Nick-Nik pairing once this season, and that was when Kronwall went on a tear offensively. I think that pairing allows Kronwall to play to his strength, and jump into the play offensively knowing that the best defenseman in hockey is covering his back. The Rafalski-Stuart pair might excel because Raffy is an offensive defenseman and Stuart is a stay at home defenseman. Both pairings also see a little more variety added to each line (considerable offensive potential, solid defense, and a little physicality).

So, what do you all think? What changes, if any, should the Red Wings make? Swap the pairings? Leave everything, and hope when push comes to shove they'll snap out of it?

Your point about Rafalski among all the others is valid (about him making defensive errors....stupid ones in my opinion, and very uncharacteristic of him), and seeing it for myself this season (along with the entire defense) makes me wonder....could this be a coaching problem? On paper, we have some really great defensemen, but they just aren't MENTALLY playing where they should be. In a situation like that, whats the problem? I'm not blaming Babs, but I don't know what else to point at when its so obvious that the problem is a mental one.

I think they should experiment with pairings, for sure....but that should only be a START to the solution.

Carman · March 1, 2009

Experiment with the pairings

Lidstrom-Kronner (Kronner gets much more freedom to step up in the play to be physical and hopefully gain confidence)

Raffy-Stuart (Veterans, should be able to play together if not the bottom 4 can be juggled.)

Lilja-Lebda*

Try for a depth defensemen like Havelid for Lebda's spot. I'm not 100% positive we have enough cap space come playoff time for a rental, but hopefully we could shed some salary or just have an even exchange with the trade.

gcom007 · March 1, 2009

And play him where?

5-6 spot rotation. I could see us getting a guy that doesn't start a single playoff game but just kinda hangs out and adds a bit of pressure to the mix. I expect 1-2 and 3-4 to get things together come playoff time, but hey, if Holland can score a guy that puts pressure on Kronwall especially to man-up in the defensive end to earn his 4 spot, then hey, that'd be great. I'm betting on a guy that can challenge for 6 to try and get that 3rd pairing to focus. Lilja will get it together, but they really need someone to step up and not be a 5-6 liability every other game.

Edited March 1, 2009 by gcom007

grsbmd · March 1, 2009

I think the only problem with the defense has been the lack of focus. We've seen that they can play fine. They manhandled San Jose twice, so we know they can do it. It just seems they don't get motivated every game. I'm hoping the playoffs can change that.

Cruiser008 · March 1, 2009

And play him where?

So that if Kronwall and Stuart are still struggling in the playoffs you can move Two of Lilja/Lebda/Acquisition X to the 2nd pairing.

Also in case there's an injury you can slot him in instead of Meech or Chelios.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Cruiser008

Shaman · March 1, 2009

And play him where?

We have 3 pretty subpar options that could easily just as well not play in Lebda, Meech, and Chelios (though Cheli is the the one id least cringe to see on the ice).

spyder · March 1, 2009

After winning a bunch of cups, how motivated can you be to win every dink game against crappy trashville and columbus? Especially if they're back to back. They're not really in any danger of missing the playoffs. Now is when they mess around to see what works and what doesn't so they can be ready for the playoffs.

Z is next captain! · March 1, 2009

MEECH, he plays 2 positions, well thats great, it would be nice if he could play one decently, instead the Wings gave up a good stay at home D man for Meech who is horrid at 2 different positions.

I wish we could trade Meech for Dandenault. I always liked him, he was a solid, versatile player as he could play both Forward or D-Man. No he wasnt a superstar at either position but he doesnt male alot of speed. Dandy is like Lebda but is an upgrade over him

After winning a bunch of cups, how motivated can you be to win every dink game against crappy trashville and columbus? Especially if they're back to back. They're not really in any danger of missing the playoffs. Now is when they mess around to see what works and what doesn't so they can be ready for the playoffs.

Agreed/ I dont know why either. I know we havent been llike ourselves for long stretches this year, I am not not panicking, simply because the last 4 cup runs we faced adversity near the end of the season.(Well maybe not the 02 team ) But if you notice two, the team that usually wins the cup goes through some advertsity and then come play off time they have a reason to play "Hungry". in the last1 2 playoffs our failures came alot of the time because they would just cruise through the season and the team would usually lose it's passion.

I'm not freakin out because yes he is a back up but I would be comfortable with him starting in the playoffs. Yes I am a huge Ozzy supporter but, just would not be comfortable. For some reason I would be with conks.

GMRwings1983 · March 1, 2009

Trade for Mathieu Dandenault.

Seriously, though, trading for a big, physical D-man would be a good idea. Trading for a goalie will be a little bit harder, but everyone around here treats Holland like a God, so he better come up with something good.

This roster as you see it will have a hard time turning on that switch come playoff time. It doesn't come that easy as the Ducks found out last year.

Don't forget that 2002 was the last time a team who won the Cup the previous year went to the 2nd round of the playoffs that following season.

Wombat · March 1, 2009

I think the first poster was spot on. The pairings on D need work. Kronwall and Stuart for the most part were good last playoffs (mostly because Kronwall was playing out of his mind), but this year they just have not been good together. If they aren't trying to pound guys, they just look like two guys standing around in their own zone. I think Lidstrom and Kronwall should be the first pair. The 2nd pair could be Rafalski/Stuart if it clicks well, and if not, then Rafalski/Lilja. They played well together and Lilja has been excellent this year. The last pairing would then be Lebda/Lilja (or Lebda/Stuart) when fully healthy, assuming no trades happen this week.

One principle that works well on the forward lines is spreading everything out. Of the top 3 lines, when healthy they roll a net front presence on each line (Homer/Franzen/Cleary), a shooter (Zetterberg/Hossa/Sammy) and a playmaker (Datsyuk/Fil/Hudler). They don't try cramming 3 of the "same guy" on the same line. I think the same philosophy should be used on the back end. Don't put two "hitters" together (Kronwall/Stuart/Lilja). Don't put two slow guys together (Lilja/Chelios). Don't put two small, faster guys together (Rafalski/Lebda/Meech). Spread it out so that each pairing has at least one guy with adequate speed, one guy that give a threat of hitting, one guy that can carry the puck, etc.

It was stated by people above and it shouldn't be understated that the team is having defensive breakdowns because they aren't playing the intense, hungry hockey of last year. I'm not going to complain too much... they have still be good more often than not this season as a team. But we'll see if they can find that switch this year for the playoffs. There have been hints at it during the season on games that "matter" so I think they can find it.

ComradeWasabi · March 1, 2009

This team has shown that they can perform when they need to - and that San Jose game was as close to a playoff atmosphere as we've gotten here in the regular season.

All of these reactionary threads are becoming cliched.

VM1138 · March 1, 2009

Your point about Rafalski among all the others is valid (about him making defensive errors....stupid ones in my opinion, and very uncharacteristic of him), and seeing it for myself this season (along with the entire defense) makes me wonder....could this be a coaching problem? On paper, we have some really great defensemen, but they just aren't MENTALLY playing where they should be. In a situation like that, whats the problem? I'm not blaming Babs, but I don't know what else to point at when its so obvious that the problem is a mental one.
I think they should experiment with pairings, for sure....but that should only be a START to the solution.

Clearly it's not a coaching problem because coaching is what built the awesome defense we've had for years.

Barrie · March 1, 2009

We've seen that we play well when we need to. We're fine.

Agreed. It doesn't help that we had to play back to back nights in two different cities on back to back weekends!

Dabura · March 1, 2009

Get everyone healthy and hungry.

(And add a big stay-at-home guy if possible.)

tweekvp · March 1, 2009

I also posed this question in the optimism thread.

Does anyone feel that Ericsson will be able to step in and make a difference on D?

rbk9k · March 1, 2009

trade lilja and let lidstrom play all 60 minutes

March 1, 2009

Trade Lilja, Chelios, Lebda, Meech, Rafalski, Stuart, and Kronwall, for Pronger, Chara, Phaneuf, Green, Niedermayer, and Markov. Then this team may have a slight chance at appeasing a few panicking fans who need to panic and want to dump players after every loss.