Thoughts on Downey

[Wings5 0]

I agree that losing Drake is more significant than originally thought. However, it does seem that Kopecky is coming around, not falling down on every shift, on every hit. I don't know if we will have that singular player in Drake. I think what will happen is Maltby and Kopecky will awaken because they know if they don't knock around some people there out of the lineup. That's the difference between this year and last, more depth. If Ericsson sticks around for the playoffs I hear he's shown an abrasive side in GR.

[esteef 2,679]

Not to beat a dead horse, but whom does Downey keep honest?

Did he stop Lappy from taking a run at him last game, did he stop Lappy last year when lappy hit Lids, answer No.

He does not keep anyone honest other than an honest player, he will not prevent the cheap shot, he will however gain retribution for the hit, which is always nice, but just so we don't get confused:

You're right, it IS a dead horse, and incorrect. The mere existence of cheap shots does not disprove the notion that tough players prevent A LOT of bulls*** from happening.

So who did Downey keep honest? Every player who DIDN'T cheap shot our guys. In fact, after Lappy's hit, Downey got into his face at the benches and Lappy wanted no part of it. Lappy had no impact after that. Honest.

esteef

[ENFORCER 0]

You're right, it IS a dead horse, and incorrect. The mere existence of cheap shots does not disprove the notion that tough players prevent A LOT of bulls*** from happening.

So who did Downey keep honest? Every player who DIDN'T cheap shot our guys. In fact, after Lappy's hit, Downey got into his face at the benches and Lappy wanted no part of it. Lappy had no impact after that. Honest.

esteef

Esteef, I like this guy... well thought out and clarified to the point, unlike Opie's posts.

Also, Opie, not everything can be prevented, but that's not the point. It's also to avoid players who have no business fighting (but some people here think they're fighters trying to fight). I.e. Lilja, who said this today:

“I've had concussions before and usually you wait 10 days and you’re good to go," Lilja said. "But I never had headaches like this. It’s weird. They’re here all the time.”

So you're saying having Downey play 6 minutes a game isn't worth losing a player like Lilja for 60 minutes a game for 5-10 games from fighting?

Wow.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

We obviously don't need Downey and should give his roster spot to some soft euro, which we don't have enough of currently. There's too much grit all over our lineup to waste it on yet another Canadian.

Also, because he fights, that means that he's somehow susceptible to taking dumb penalties. Likewise, he doesn't deter anything, thus the other 29 teams in the league that dress enforcers are stupid for doing so, since there's no deterrence whatsoever.

[Shaman 713]

You're right, it IS a dead horse, and incorrect. The mere existence of cheap shots does not disprove the notion that tough players prevent A LOT of bulls*** from happening.

So who did Downey keep honest? Every player who DIDN'T cheap shot our guys. In fact, after Lappy's hit, Downey got into his face at the benches and Lappy wanted no part of it. Lappy had no impact after that. Honest.

esteef

So any night Downey isn't in the line up but no one gets cheap shot put on them, and Hudler is in the line up that means Hudler stopped it? Hmmm, Hudler does look like an enforcer with the Sam Elliot mustache....

...Please refer to the bear tax (Simpsons) for a great satire on your line of thought...

[ENFORCER 0]

So any night Downey isn't in the line up but no one gets cheap shot put on them, and Hudler is in the line up that means Hudler stopped it? Hmmm, Hudler does look like an enforcer with the Sam Elliot mustache....

...Please refer to the bear tax (Simpsons) for a great satire on your line of thought...

That's not his point at all, horrible way to twist his words. It's all about retribution too and the possibility of fights when games get out of hand as well.

Lilja vs. Weber= Lilja out for 5-10 games due to concussion

Downey vs. Weber= would've been a hell of a fight with Lilja still in line up.

Simple cause and effect.

[ENFORCER 0]

We obviously don't need Downey and should give his roster spot to some soft euro, which we don't have enough of currently. There's too much grit all over our lineup to waste it on yet another Canadian.

Also, because he fights, that means that he's somehow susceptible to taking dumb penalties. Likewise, he doesn't deter anything, thus the other 29 teams in the league that dress enforcers are stupid for doing so, since there's no deterrence whatsoever.

Oh absolutely right too... Laraque was there for his scoring last year, not to protect Sid the Kid... same with Godard. They'll never get it here, might as well save our breath.

[Shaman 713]

That's not his point at all, horrible way to twist his words. It's all about retribution too and the possibility of fights when games get out of hand as well.

Lilja vs. Weber= Lilja out for 5-10 games due to concussion

Downey vs. Weber= would've been a hell of a fight with Lilja still in line up.

Simple cause and effect.

Really you know that for a fact? That Weber couldnt have landed a haymaker on Downey on the right temple and made him see little birdies too? It seems that you know nothing about concussions, you can land on your head and be fine, and sometimes a crappy little hit that wouldnt phase a skinny 2 year old can cause one.

PS, I am not twisting his words, but, just because something doesn't happen just because someone is dressed that night, doesn't mean it would if he hadn't. Same with your little conjuncture about Downey vs Weber

Edited March 6, 2009 by Shaman464

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Really you know that for a fact? That Weber couldnt have landed a haymaker on Downey on the right temple and made him see little birdies too? It seems that you know nothing about concussions, you can land on your head and be fine, and sometimes a crappy little hit that wouldnt phase a skinny 2 year old can cause one.

That's why duck and cover is the best strategy, right?

Then our PP can come out and do the enforcing.

[Opie 308]

You're right, it IS a dead horse, and incorrect. The mere existence of cheap shots does not disprove the notion that tough players prevent A LOT of bulls*** from happening.

So who did Downey keep honest? Every player who DIDN'T cheap shot our guys. In fact, after Lappy's hit, Downey got into his face at the benches and Lappy wanted no part of it. Lappy had no impact after that. Honest.

esteef

So what you are telling me is that Downey prevented Raycroft, Smith, Salei, Svatos, etc from taking a shot at Zetterberg, or are you willing to admit that there are some players regardless if Downey or you or I are on the ice are not going to take cheap shots.

If so than that limits the Avs to lappy, (and who else? Ben Guite) who had a previous issue with Downey and took a cheap shot, what if that cheap shot messes up Downey's back, and he can't chirp back at him what then, who then will the Wings get to prevent Milan Hejduk and Paul Statsny from injuring the Red Wings.

Get it, there are some people who will not cheap shot, then there are players who will cheap shot, BTW I don't think Lappy's first hit on Lids was cheap last year, clean hit, bad spot for Lids. It didn't look as though the intent to hurt was there, to me!

If Lappy or Tucker want to Cheap shot Dats or Lids or Z or Hossa do you really think the thought of being punched in the face (mind you these guys fight more than they do cheap shot) will deter them from hitting, NO!!

And before Downey chirped at him by the bench whom else was Lappy cheap shotting, how much of an impact was he having before the incident by the benches???

Surely if he was rendered useless, honestly, by Downey what was he doing so well before hand?

What exactly happened in the last Wings Avs game that Downey should have prevented? The Shoot out loss? The unsportsmanlike conduct from Hannan?

The only reason there was any altercation in the most recent game was in fact because Downey was on the ice, for the first time since their last meeting, other than that there was no cheap shots, Lappy wasn't running around cross checking people in the back was he?

Enforcers do not prevent, they enforce a penalty for the behavior you displayed. Much like Law Enforcement officers enforce the law after you have committed a crime. The penalty may prevent you or I from doing something, but the enforcer doesn't stop you, when you see a cop do all of the sudden stop speeding for the rest of the day, no you wait until he can't get you. With a guy like Downey he can only get you 4 minutes out of 60. He could slow down Lappy when he is on the ice, but then again when Downey is on the ice who out there would you be worried that would get hurt?

Do you really think players that get hit in the face with sticks, hands, elbows, pucks and other pieces of equipment and who willingly fight others are thinking , Man I better be careful around Zetterberg tonight, Downey is on the roster. NO!

If Hannan or lappy want to take Z out they will, and then when Downey gets 5 for fighting, 2 for instigation, and a 10 min misconduct, they will take there 5 for fighting and think Damn I got rid of Zetterberg, took a couple of punches, got Downey out of the game, now the wings are down two players (one happens to be top 10 ) and have to kill a penalty without Z.

[sarcasm]

You are right, I now see how an enforcer stops cheap shots, ever wonder why they are called enforcers not preventors, I mean because surely Probie being on the team stopped everyone from ever touching Steve Yzerman, no one ever went after him with a dirty, cheap or late hit, right?????

[/sarcasm]

[Shaman 713]

That's why duck and cover is the best strategy, right?

Then our PP can come out and do the enforcing.

Because Lilja really proved anything by getting us on a PK and getting his ass kicked when we were already embarrassed by nashville?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

So what you are telling me is that Downey prevented Raycroft, Smith, Salei, Svatos, etc from taking a shot at Zetterberg, or are you willing to admit that there are some players regardless if Downey or you or I are on the ice are not going to take cheap shots.

If so than that limits the Avs to lappy, (and who else? Ben Guite) who had a previous issue with Downey and took a cheap shot, what if that cheap shot messes up Downey's back, and he can't chirp back at him what then, who then will the Wings get to prevent Milan Hejduk and Paul Statsny from injuring the Red Wings.

Get it, there are some people who will not cheap shot, then there are players who will cheap shot, BTW I don't think Lappy's first hit on Lids was cheap last year, clean hit, bad spot for Lids. It didn't look as though the intent to hurt was there, to me!

If Lappy or Tucker want to Cheap shot Dats or Lids or Z or Hossa do you really think the thought of being punched in the face (mind you these guys fight more than they do cheap shot) will deter them from hitting, NO!!

And before Downey chirped at him by the bench whom else was Lappy cheap shotting, how much of an impact was he having before the incident by the benches???

Surely if he was rendered useless, honestly, by Downey what was he doing so well before hand?

What exactly happened in the last Wings Avs game that Downey should have prevented? The Shoot out loss? The unsportsmanlike conduct from Hannan?

The only reason there was any altercation in the most recent game was in fact because Downey was on the ice, for the first time since their last meeting, other than that there was no cheap shots, Lappy wasn't running around cross checking people in the back was he?

Enforcers do not prevent, they enforce a penalty for the behavior you displayed. Much like Law Enforcement officers enforce the law after you have committed a crime. The penalty may prevent you or I from doing something, but the enforcer doesn't stop you, when you see a cop do all of the sudden stop speeding for the rest of the day, no you wait until he can't get you. With a guy like Downey he can only get you 4 minutes out of 60. He could slow down Lappy when he is on the ice, but then again when Downey is on the ice who out there would you be worried that would get hurt?

Do you really think players that get hit in the face with sticks, hands, elbows, pucks and other pieces of equipment and who willingly fight others are thinking , Man I better be careful around Zetterberg tonight, Downey is on the roster. NO!

If Hannan or lappy want to take Z out they will, and then when Downey gets 5 for fighting, 2 for instigation, and a 10 min misconduct, they will take there 5 for fighting and think Damn I got rid of Zetterberg, took a couple of punches, got Downey out of the game, now the wings are down two players (one happens to be top 10 ) and have to kill a penalty without Z.

[sarcasm]

You are right, I now see how an enforcer stops cheap shots, ever wonder why they are called enforcers not preventors, I mean because surely Probie being on the team stopped everyone from ever touching Steve Yzerman, no one ever went after him with a dirty, cheap or late hit, right?????

[/sarcasm]

Do you really think that enforcers have existed for decades in hockey and still continue to exist all around the league, even though they don't prevent anything?

The NHL is a business, and I'm pretty sure teams wouldn't waste roster spots at all on enforces if they were just there to retaliate.

Also, did you ever stop to think that maybe retaliation is a way to deter later attempts at cheap shots?

[Opie 308]

Esteef, I like this guy... well thought out and clarified to the point, unlike Opie's posts.

Also, Opie, not everything can be prevented, but that's not the point. It's also to avoid players who have no business fighting (but some people here think they're fighters trying to fight). I.e. Lilja, who said this today:

So you're saying having Downey play 6 minutes a game isn't worth losing a player like Lilja for 60 minutes a game for 5-10 games from fighting?

Wow.

How did Lilja get hurt, was it a cheap shot, no, so what in the hell does this have to do with the topic of conversation.

He got hurt trying to be an enforcer, so if the argument was having Downey in the lineup to fight means he would have to deal with the injuries that come from fighting instead of some one like Lilja, then yes I agree.

However, last I checked the topic was whether or not Downey prevents Cheap shots and injuries that result from said cheap shots.

Whether or not Lilja should or should not have been in that fight is not part of this conversation.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Because Lilja really proved anything by getting us on a PK and getting his ass kicked when we were already embarrassed by nashville?

So you don't like seeing someone on the Wings standing up for himself, unlike the rest of the team?

I suppose he should have just skated away and pointed at the scoreboard.....oh wait, nevermind.

[Shaman 713]

So you don't like seeing someone on the Wings standing up for himself, unlike the rest of the team?

I suppose he should have just skated away and pointed at the scoreboard.....oh wait, nevermind.

Did you even watch that game? Weber was standing up for himself, Lilja cheap shotted him....

[ENFORCER 0]

How did Lilja get hurt, was it a cheap shot, no, so what in the hell does this have to do with the topic of conversation.

He got hurt trying to be an enforcer, so if the argument was having Downey in the lineup to fight means he would have to deal with the injuries that come from fighting instead of some one like Lilja, then yes I agree.

However, last I checked the topic was whether or not Downey prevents Cheap shots and injuries that result from said cheap shots.

Whether or not Lilja should or should not have been in that fight is not part of this conversation.

You stated it best and just countered your own debate. Lilja was TRYING to be an enforcer and clearly that is not and SHOULD not be his role.

Also, Shaman, sure Downey is human and could get concussions... but if he was out a few games he's a 5 minute a game player, not our key penalty killing defenseman.

Also, fyi, I just went through the yearly stats of Downey's fighting history- he's never missed games due to a concussion post fight. Boxing skills DO tend to help in fighting.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Did you even watch that game? Weber was standing up for himself, Lilja cheap shotted him....

Even better. He tried to start a fight to boost his team when they were getting blown out. That's what fighters are supposed to do.

[Ms_Hockey 0]

I'm in the minority about Downey - and enforcers in general. I like the guy - I just don't like that all he seems able to do is throw the gloves. Granted, I haven't seen a whole lot of him.. but I've always been one for a finesse game over a physical game. But hey, if he helps the Red Wings and Babcock thinks he's what we need to get to the Cup, more power to him.

[Shaman 713]

Even better. He tried to start a fight to boost his team when they were getting blown out. That's what fighters are supposed to do.

No, he didnt, he ran weber into boards, in a cheap way, that no player should and weber took offense to it, and kicked lilja's ass, therefore, 2 things happened

#1 Weber and Tootoo, 2 'enforcers' didn't prevent a cheap shot

#2 It didnt change the outcome of the game for anyone, we still lose, it added no energy and we lost a player.

[lets go pavel 2]

In terms of prevention, enforcers are like condoms. You can use a condom 82 times in a year (not the same one with the condoms, of course), and you have no idea what it prevented. You just know that the fact that you are wearing one means that your chances are much more in your favour. You feel safer with one. Maybe nothing would have happened, but you don't know how many times something bad was prevented, so you keep using one.

Bingo. This argument will never end because everyone is arguing about the existence, or lack thereof, of something that DIDN'T HAPPEN. There is no way to know what an enforcer prevents or doesn't prevent, but there are a lot of players who feel that it helps.

Ok, now about Downey. Downey provides energy and confidence, not to mention entertainment. Lids and Zata have gone on record saying how much he adds to the team due to his attitude and willingness to stand up for them, which they say helps them play their game.

Unlike most players, the question is not "how good is he at hockey?", but rather "what does he add to the team as a whole?" It would be nice to have an all-around player who could bring what Downey does. I'd prefer it, despite the fact that I really like him. But since we don't have that guy right now, Downey is there to do the job during the regular season, and a great Black Ace during the playoffs.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Are there better skaters, defenders, faceoff men, PKers, agitators, etc. that we could put on the 4th line in place of Downey? Sure. But would that person's contributions be more significant to the team than Downey's? That's debatable, but what isn't is that Downey brings something to the table that no one else on the team really does. To me, what we sacrifice in skating ability and all-around hockey ability by paying Downey is more than made up for by having that little bit of muscle and energy in the lineup. We have plenty of skill to compensate for one less skilled 4th liner ...

[Opie 308]

Do you really think that enforcers have existed for decades in hockey and still continue to exist all around the league, even though they don't prevent anything?

The NHL is a business, and I'm pretty sure teams wouldn't waste roster spots at all on enforces if they were just there to retaliate.

Also, did you ever stop to think that maybe retaliation is a way to deter later attempts at cheap shots?

1. Yes I do think that enforcers are a part of hockey that doesn't prevent anything and never have, they gained retaliation, they gave the other team a sense that you better not do that again.

- A couple of points of interest from that sentence I want to emphasize:

--I used past tense, due to rule changes in the game enforcers have been rendered about 1/8th as effective as they used to be.

-- the last word is again, an enforcer goes out and fights someone after something has happened, well, if nothing has happened yet what exactly is the enforcer stopping. Nothing, even in the old days, guys didn't just drop the gloves because they wanted to prove to the other team don't mess with us we have player x, it was you did something, don't do it again.

2. Did Retaliation stop Claude Lemieux? Steve Downie?

Would you rather see a league with more and more Simon, Downie (note the spelling please, not you GMR but others), and Boulerice type players? Until the instigator rule is taken away guys like Simon, Downie and Boulerice will continue to exist.

You keep comparing Hockey from decades ago, things have changed, not sure that you noticed or not, there is this thing called the instigator rule that took the ability to police the game out of the players hands, as long as that rule is in place, guys like Downey (note spelling) will not prevent anything, because even if Steve Downie got punched in the face by Aaron Downey, he is still going to run around two handing people.

McCarty got retribution from Lemieux, right? Lemieux didn't think he did anything wrong and thinks Mac is in the wrong for jumping him. What good did that do? Was it entertaining as hell, you bet you ass it was, did having Mac on the team stop anything?

But I have conceded to you since last post season, that if you want to admit fighting is entertaining and that is why you like it, I can't have a problem with that, it is what entertains you and many others, but when you say an enforcer prevents cheap shots that I don't believe true.

Edited March 6, 2009 by Opie

[lets go pavel 2]

1. Yes I do think that enforcers are a part of hockey that doesn't prevent anything and never have, they gained retaliation, they gave the other team a sense that you better not do that again.

-- the last word is again, an enforcer goes out and fights someone after something has happened, well, if nothing has happened yet what exactly is the enforcer stopping. Nothing, even in the old days, guys didn't just drop the gloves because they wanted to prove to the other team don't mess with us we have player x, it was you did something, don't do it again.

Wouldn't that be a form of prevention? I realize an enforcer generally only fights as an act of retribution, but the threat of a fight can be preventative, and a fight that is retributive at the moment can also be preventative in future meetings. Again, we can never prove what is or isn't prevented, but that does not prove nothing is prevented.

[ENFORCER 0]

But I have conceded to you since last post season, that if you want to admit fighting is entertaining and that is why you like it, I can't have a problem with that, it is what entertains you and many others, but when you say an enforcer prevents cheap shots that I don't believe true.

That's a silly argument. Sports in general are purely entertainment for fans, nothing more, nothing less. They're great fun and a business for the owners, but for fans it is purely entertainment. So in that case, lets also widen the nets 4 feet and change the game for more goals... it's entertaining right?

I don't know about you, but every sporting game I've EVER been to has been for entertainment purposes. If the majority, by a landslide, of hockey fans love having Downey in and he's voted consistently as Player of the Game by fans, isn't that all you can ask for? His +- is respectable for an enforcer.

[ENFORCER 0]

Wouldn't that be a form of prevention? I realize an enforcer generally only fights as an act of retribution, but the threat of a fight can be preventative, and a fight that is retributive at the moment can also be preventative in future meetings. Again, we can never prove what is or isn't prevented, but that does not prove nothing is prevented.

EXCELLENT POINT. I love when Opie writes dissertations on a subject, he ends up disproving his point about 3-4x per paragraph.

[esteef 2,679]

So any night Downey isn't in the line up but no one gets cheap shot put on them, and Hudler is in the line up that means Hudler stopped it? Hmmm, Hudler does look like an enforcer with the Sam Elliot mustache....

...Please refer to the bear tax (Simpsons) for a great satire on your line of thought...

2 points for you for recognizing sarcasm. My point, as you articulated in your example, is as ridiculous as Opie saying enforcers are useless since SOME cheap shots still happen.

esteef