Would the Wings be better off had they Pursued Goalie Instead of Hossa

[Carman 387]

People wondering why the wing's don't need to waste salary on a goalie? Here you go.

"The Wings haven't won a Vezina Trophy -- awarded to the best goalie -- since 1955. But the team has five of the past 14 Selke trophies -- given to the best defensive forward. The emphasis remains on the players, said Babcock, who reinstalled Bowman's hard-charging ethos after the team took a bit of a hiatus under Dave Lewis.

The club's other dominant trait is sublime puck possession. At best, it amounts to a sophisticated -- and deflating -- version of keep-away. Some nights the puck seems to float across the ice, impossible angle to impossible angle, tape to tape to tape -- the sweet spot of the hockey stick.

Few have a better view than the goalie.

"Sometimes you don't feel like you are as much a part of the game," Conklin said.

Last Wednesday was a good example. The Wings were toying with the Nashville Predators. The team outshot them, 41-25. The Wings won, 6-2. But that doesn't begin to illustrate the dominance.

For long periods of time -- as much as 45 seconds, an eternity in hockey -- the puck never left the Predators' zone. Meaning Conklin was simply a spectator.

A lull punctuated by a sudden oncoming rush requires a kind of mental exactitude. And it isn't for everybody.

Said Darren Pang, a former NHL goalie and analyst for NBC: "A lot of guys need constant action. But the Red Wings need someone who doesn't face a shot for a while and then makes a big save."

Still, Holland argued, the team doesn't need an $8-million-a-year lockdown goalie in this system, especially in this salary-cap era. Holland chooses to stock his team with Marian Hossas and Brian Rafalskis instead.

"You've got five or six (goalies) that are a different level than everybody else," he said, "but the difference between the 10th best and 20th best isn't that great -- if you play defense."

Despite the occasional rush, Detroit goalies benefit from ridiculously skilled offensive and defensive players who constrict opposing forwards. The effect is often subtle."

Taken from-

http://www.freep.com/article/20090222/SPOR...to+cup+defender

[Guest NumbaSixty-Six]

No. He has no source for that because it's false.

Another tool.

http://www.nhl.com/numbers/cap.htm?id=2008076581

[Rivalred 630]

Another tool.

http://www.nhl.com/numbers/cap.htm?id=2008076581

Says "url not found"

Tool what?

[Guest NumbaSixty-Six]

{Selke winning forward speech}

You don't think the Oilers had the same problem? Grant Fuhr was a absolute master at being able to stay focus'd.

[ben_usmc 253]

Classy. I am sure Hossa would love to play in a arena that actually has fans in it. I am not knocking Detroit or anything. They know how to run a hockey franchise. Scouting is unbelievable. I really hate to bring in a NFL franchise comparison but they remind me of the steelers. All I was asking was do you think Detroit would have a better record or would be more sound if they had a clear cut starting goaltender. So go back to school for reading comprehension retard.

Really are you sure as a Pens fan you want to go this route?

to the orginal question no because we thought all things would remain the same on defense and goaltending part of our game.

But LOL at a Pens fan trying to talk about empty seats thats classic

[henrik40 76]

Don't think the cap is going to go down 10 million, a ridiculous amount of teams would be in salary cap trouble. I've heard it's going down but only in the 1 to 3 million range.

Edited March 8, 2009 by henrik40

[Carman 387]

You don't think the Oilers had the same problem? Grant Fuhr was a absolute master at being able to stay focus'd.

Notice what both teams have in common?

Understand how that's not a 'problem'?

[Ms_Hockey 0]

the wings had absolutely no reason to pursue a new starting goalie in the offseason. osgood has just won us the cup and played lights out hockey for the entire playoff run. they got a capable backup and a pure goal scorer. there is absolutely no reason why holland & co. should or would have been thinking about a goalie in the offseason. sure, hindsight is 20/20, but the premise of the argument that we should have gotten a goalie instead of hossa is completely flawed and nonsensical.

Agreed 100%.

There was no reason to look for a new goalie with Osgood's performance. How was Holland to know that Ozzie wouldn't be doing well now?

[wingsdiehard13 33]

Another tool.

http://www.nhl.com/numbers/cap.htm?id=2008076581

Still waiting on your proof....

[henrik40 76]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=397463

"The feeling at the moment is that the NHL won't suffer greatly this season because more than 70 per cent of season ticket and sponsorship revenue has already been collected, and that the $56.7 million salary cap should stay close to the same for 2009-10, although it could drop the following season."

Not sure when this 10 million dollar drop is actually occurring.

[Ms_Hockey 0]

Classy. I am sure Hossa would love to play in a arena that actually has fans in it. I am not knocking Detroit or anything. They know how to run a hockey franchise. Scouting is unbelievable. I really hate to bring in a NFL franchise comparison but they remind me of the steelers. All I was asking was do you think Detroit would have a better record or would be more sound if they had a clear cut starting goaltender. So go back to school for reading comprehension retard.

With all due respect to the Pens & you yourself, I would think that the high chance of winning a Cup would overrule the emptiness of the arena.

In fairness to the Red Wings, the upper bowl is always packed. You'd be hard-pressed to find a single empty seat up there. The lower bowl has tons of corporate buyers who use the tickets as raffles at work or bring clients, etc. I don't think it's fair to judge based on the lower-bowl view you get whilst watching the game on TV. Those tickets ARE sold - the people just choose not to show up. Take, for example, the game against the SJ Sharks recently. It was sold out. Or the upcoming game March 12th vs. the Calgary Flames - standing room only tickets are being sold now.

In either case, would Detroit be better off with a clear cut starting goaltender? Probably. But there's nothing we can do to change our current situation - so we're stuck. There was no reason to sign an excellent goaltender when Osgood just played a heck of a playoff stretch. Signing a potent goal-scorer (Hossa) to add offensive depth wasn't a bad move at all, in my opinion.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Ms_Hockey

[ben_usmc 253]

10 million?? that would destroy teams, probably lead to another lock out of sorts there is no way that will happen. I mean if it slowly went down yearly that's one thing but a bump down that much, get the f..... out of here with that.

[ben_usmc 253]

With all due respect to the Pens & you yourself, I would think that the high chance of winning a Cup would overrule the emptiness of the arena.

In fairness to the Red Wings, the upper bowl is always packed. You'd be hard-pressed to find a single empty seat up there. The lower bowl has tons of corporate buyers who use the tickets as raffles at work or bring clients, etc. I don't think it's fair to judge based on the lower-bowl view you get whilst watching the game on TV. Those tickets ARE sold - the people just choose not to show up. Take, for example, the game against the SJ Sharks recently. It was sold out. Or the upcoming came March 12th vs. the Calgary Flames - standing room only tickets are being sold now.

In either case, would Detroit be better off with a clear cut starting goaltender? Probably. But there's nothing we can do to change our current situation - so we're stuck. There was no reason to sign an excellent goaltender when Osgood just played a heck of a playoff stretch. Signing a potent goal-scorer (Hossa) to add offensive depth wasn't a bad move at all, in my opinion.

How about you just say with all fairness our team wasn't almost moved in the last 10 years. In fairness we didn't just happen to get a "lucky" lottery pick to help save a franchise. In all fairness it hasn't take us 5 top 5 picks in order to be remotely competitive in the league. With all fairness don't come on to a wings board and try to talk trash about lack of fan support when a few years ago you had none.

Edited March 8, 2009 by ben_usmc

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Classy. I am sure Hossa would love to play in a arena that actually has fans in it. I am not knocking Detroit or anything. They know how to run a hockey franchise. Scouting is unbelievable. I really hate to bring in a NFL franchise comparison but they remind me of the steelers. All I was asking was do you think Detroit would have a better record or would be more sound if they had a clear cut starting goaltender. So go back to school for reading comprehension retard.

If I am a retard, it's only because I even bothered to respond to your stupid post in the first place.

You obviously didn't come here today to ask the question you posted above, because the answer to it is a clear yes. Of course we'd have a better record with a clear cut number one goalie if Ozzie had a better season. It's such a pointless question on your part, that it becomes easy to deduce that you just came here to start s*** like you did last year during the Finals.

Once again, get over last year and the Hossa thing.

[MabusIncarnate 5,359]

This doesn't even make any sense to me. In the offseason, coming off of a championship, and Osgood arguably playing the best hockey of his career, was a new goaltender even in question at that point? They got Hossa because we had no need for a new goaltender, and how soon some of us forget how PHENOMONAL Osgood was in the playoffs last year, I still don't think we need a new goaltender. Apparently the Red Wings organization agrees considering nothing was done at the deadline. People need to stop for a second, and remember how enormous our goaltending was last year, and why we won the cup. Osgood doesn't come in for Hasek and chances are we were out in the 1st round. There's no other realistic goaltender I want to go into the playoffs with this year but Ozzie. A goaltender doesn't go from golden to s*** brown like some of you think he has. I have no concerns, and I think the Hossa signing was the best thing they could have done for this team.

[ben_usmc 253]

This doesn't even make any sense to me. In the offseason, coming off of a championship, and Osgood arguably playing the best hockey of his career, was a new goaltender even in question at that point? They got Hossa because we had no need for a new goaltender, and how soon some of us forget how PHENOMONAL Osgood was in the playoffs last year, I still don't think we need a new goaltender. Apparently the Red Wings organization agrees considering nothing was done at the deadline. People need to stop for a second, and remember how enormous our goaltending was last year, and why we won the cup. Osgood doesn't come in for Hasek and chances are we were out in the 1st round. There's no other realistic goaltender I want to go into the playoffs with this year but Ozzie. A goaltender doesn't go from golden to s*** brown like some of you think he has. I have no concerns, and I think the Hossa signing was the best thing they could have done for this team.

I don't think anyone forgot that Ozzy brought us to the cup last year, but that doesn't mean he can bring us to the cup this year. Really I don't think a deadline move would have matter anyway, I just hope Conklin can be last years Ozzy.

[Guest NumbaSixty-Six]

[/b]

If I am a retard, it's only because I even bothered to respond to your stupid post in the first place.

You obviously didn't come here today to ask the question you posted above, because the answer to it is a clear yes. Of course we'd have a better record with a clear cut number one goalie if Ozzie had a better season. It's such a pointless question on your part, that it becomes easy to deduce that you just came here to start s*** like you did last year during the Finals.

Once again, get over last year and the Hossa thing.

Then don't you troll.

I obviously did come here to ask that question OR I WOULDN'T BE POSTING HERE. I did not come here "to start s***" grow up. Drama maker. Get over it? Why would I NEED to get over it in the first place? Hossa was a rental and a very sucessful rental but he is just as injury prone as his playmate Gaborik. He'll sign with whoever Gaborik signs with next year, and for all I care they can both sign with Detroit. Unless Detroit somehow drafts Victor freaking Hedman I don't see their Defence getting significantly more solid next year with the cost of Dmen these days.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Then don't you troll.

I obviously did come here to ask that question OR I WOULDN'T BE POSTING HERE. I did not come here "to start s***" grow up. Drama maker. Get over it? Why would I NEED to get over it in the first place? Hossa was a rental and a very sucessful rental but he is just as injury prone as his playmate Gaborik. He'll sign with whoever Gaborik signs with next year, and for all I care they can both sign with Detroit. Unless Detroit somehow drafts Victor freaking Hedman I don't see their Defence getting significantly more solid next year with the cost of Dmen these days.

Then I gave you too much credit. Apparently you did come here to ask a question with an obvious answer.

[Guest Shoreline]

So, what if some of that Hossa Money went to finding a decent Goalie? Or Should the Wings stolen Huet or Bulin from the Hawks in the Offseason?

Then the Wings are less 30 something goals, and even more with Hossa's assists. Maybe enough to lose at least half of those one goal contests the Wings have been full of this season. Really, what a ridiculous question.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Shoreline

[Wingsallwin 0]

Suppose the cap will not change in the future, then let's sign with Hossa. If not, then let's consider more carefully. We have 10 million cap right now for the next season. First of all, we cannot keep both Hossa and Franzen, more realistically state, we do not have to. Besides, do not forget we have to sign with Leino who is our best prospect.

Goalie issue on the Wings has been talked since we failed so many times in the playoff. Last year and 06-07 season were different because same time, Osgood and Hasek have been terrific each season. What I am stating is that we have no chance to be successful in the playoff with this Osgood right now.

It is not his fault, or whose fault is this.. If the puck goes into the net and let opponents to score, that is a defense problem but also goalie problem. Goalie is the part of defense. Goalie is there to stop the puck when defenses misplay. Isn't that pretty much telling? Osgood allowed 7 goals last night. Well Conklin allowed 1 goal on 6 shots. However, it is not only one time.

I remember Conks was awfully bad against the Preds in the beginning but Osgood was no different than that but we have to care that was a back to back game.

Last night was totally a fluke. We had 3 days off for the rest and practice but that was the result of playing with a poor goalie. If you see deeply, how many times can you guys say to feel comfortable when Osgood is in the net compare to Conklin is in the net?

When there is PK situation or breakaway, most people here probably do not expect the Wings' goalies to stop, espeically Osgood right now. But Conklin feels more comfortable than Osgood for that. How many times has Osgood allowed goals through the 5-hole? That has been the issue whole season but nothing changed. Osgood is just a terrible goalie this season.

Then, some people may hope he will bounce back because he had only few good games. Doesn't every goalie in the NHL have at least few good games? At least from my view, it is.

I do not know what will happen to our goalies for the rest of the season, but I at least rather to put confidence on Conklin than Osgood because Conklin wants more and played better so far

[Guest NumbaSixty-Six]

Then I gave you too much credit. Apparently you did come here to ask a question with an obvious answer.

Excuse me for being far inferior to grand master message board poster. I didn't know we were allowed to have futile discussions on a message board.

[95MadeMeCry 11]

IF we don't turn over the f***in puck - we win, no matter the goalie. When the "team tightness" is there we win. It gives the goalie confidence and they seem to make big saves when we are clicking........ when the team is playing with zero emotion and tuen the puck over- we get our ass kicked.

[softshoes 83]

Excuse me for being far inferior to grand master message board poster. I didn't know we were allowed to have futile discussions on a message board.

It is a futile discussion, hindsight is 20/20, Osgood nearly won the Conn Smythe last year. Why for heavens sake would we look at getting a goalie?

I was going to leave it alone and let you have your fun till you brought up attendence.....as someone who nearly lost their team to lack of support shame on you. Every fan w/o solid points seem to bring up attendence. It's like you think because the Joe doesn't sell out every night it validates your arguments.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Then don't you troll.

I obviously did come here to ask that question OR I WOULDN'T BE POSTING HERE. I did not come here "to start s***" grow up. Drama maker. Get over it? Why would I NEED to get over it in the first place? Hossa was a rental and a very sucessful rental but he is just as injury prone as his playmate Gaborik. He'll sign with whoever Gaborik signs with next year, and for all I care they can both sign with Detroit. Unless Detroit somehow drafts Victor freaking Hedman I don't see their Defence getting significantly more solid next year with the cost of Dmen these days.

What is that based on? Hossa is not even close to being as injury prone as Gaborik. Hossa is injured about as much as Gaborik plays, which is not often. In fact, the lowest number of regular season games Hossa has ever played was 72 last season. The years prior to that Hossa played 82, 80, 81, 80, 80, 81 and 78 games respectively. He has played 62 with the Red Wings this season already, so he will likely play between 70-75 games again.

You can be upset that Hossa left, but try to use some actual facts if you want to make an argument.

[Guest Crymson]

So, what if some of that Hossa Money went to finding a decent Goalie? Or Should the Wings stolen Huet or Bulin from the Hawks in the Offseason?

Osgood was just coming off of an incredible regular season---recall that he had had some of the best stats in the league---and a stellar playoff year in which he'd played a significant part in winning us a Stanley Cup. He had signed an extension during the previous regular season for a scant $1.5m. The Wings were thus all set at goalie. Then the offseason's best UFA forward fell into the team's lap for almost the exact amount they had to spend. He could have gotten more elsewhere, but he chose to take less here. The management signed him, as one would expect, and then they screaming off to party and celebrate their incredible fortune.

As such, what you have made here is quite possibly the biggest hindsight post I have ever seen on these forums. Ever. Goodness. Please---take it back. PLEASE!

Edit: It goes without saying that said post is also utter nonsense and that my attempts to get you to take it back are a joke. Having gone through the rest of this thread, I also regret having even responded at all. Yeesh.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Crymson