NHL Awards! You pick who do you think deserves what

[dat's sick 1,002]

Datsyuk doesn't have a logical claim to the Selke. I have made this post in many other threads; Datsyuk spent most of the first half of the season centering the Wings' first line with Hossa and Holmstrom, the purpose of the line being almost exclusively offensively and any defense from the line a bonus. Zetterberg, who was now centering the Wings' second line, was being used to center some varying combination of wingers such as Cleary and Franzen, or Franzen and Samuelsson, or Cleary and Samuelsson...but always wingers who could play well at both ends of the ice. Why? Because Zetterberg's line was being used as the team's primary shutdown line. Now, if Zetterberg, and not Datsyuk, is getting the shutdown assignments...wouldn't that indicate that the team was viewing him, and not Datsyuk as its most capable defensive forward? And even then, Zetterberg is still used as much for offense as he is for defense. But at very least, it would cast doubt on the idea that Datsyuk was the best defensive forward in the league, as there are forwards like Kesler, Pahlsson, and Fedorov out there whose primary role is to shut down the opposing scorers and who are quite good at what they do.

As far as Datsyuk winning the Lady Byng...you basically justified your choice of Dats winning it by saying "He won it before, he should win it again right?" right after saying that Lidstrom shouldn't win the Norris because he's not so far ahead of the pack that he should be a near unanimous selection as he has been in the past.

I think you're looking at the Datsyuk vs. Zetterberg situation in 100x more detail than the people who vote on it do.. maybe I'm underestimating those people, but I think they see Datsyuk being top 5 in scoring, top 2 in takeaways, top 5 (?) in +/-, and simply being excellent at both ends of the rink, and they'll vote for him. The Red Wings lines have been juggled so much this season that it's hard even as a Wings fan to remember who played on what line and for how long.

Remember the Selke isn't just about being good defensively, which is why guys with 20-30 points or less aren't going to win it.

It's given to the player that demonstrates great qualities at both ends of the rink.

Now personally, I think Zetterberg is the better defensive player out of him and Pavel. Pav has that magical takeaway ability, but overall Z is more responsible and always the 1st choice when there's a PK or when a lead has to be defended at the end of the game.

However, I don't think Zetterberg has enough points or a good enough +/- this season to be chosen over Datsyuk or Parise.

Now, my list:

Art Ross Trophy - Malkin

Lester B. Pearson Award - Steve Mason

Hart Trophy - Steve Mason

Vezina Trophy - Steve Mason

Norris Trophy - Lidstrom

Calder Trophy - Steve Mason

Lady Byng Trophy - Datsyuk

Frank Selke Trophy - Datsyuk

Jack Adams - McLellan

Maurice "Rocket" Richard - Ovechkin

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Art Ross Trophy - Sidney Crosby

Lester B. Pearon Award - Alex Ovechkin

Hart Trophy - Wait and See

Venzina Trophy - Steve Mason

Norris Trophy - Nicklas Lidstrom

Calder Trophy - Steve Mason

Lady Byng Trophy - Patrick Marleau

Frank Selke Trophy - Mike Richards

Jack Adams - Claude Julien

Maurice "Rocket" Richard - Alex Ovechkin

Some were tough, and a bit biased. I honestly dont know who to pick for the Hart, Malkin has a ton of points but he's barely been the best player on his own team. I have a feeling Ovechkin will get it, but who knows.

[Electrophile 3,554]

I am never coming back here.... Far too homer. Can't even talk hockey...

From what I had been reading, you were being a complete prat to people and then you wonder why you get people being rude to you in response. If you want to cut your nose off to spite your face, be our guest.

[Doggy 130]

Art Ross Trophy - Evgeni Malkin

Lester B. Pearon Award - Zach Parise

Hart Trophy - Steve Mason

Venzina Trophy - Steve Mason

Norris Trophy - Lidstrom

Calder Trophy - Steve Mason

Lady Byng Trophy - Datsyuk

Frank Selke Trophy - Mike Richards

Jack Adams - Sutter

Maurice "Rocket" Richard - Alexander Ovechkin

Masterton - Sullivan

Edited March 16, 2009 by Doggy

[dicksmack 33]

He's played lots of regular shifts with Hossa and Zetterberg, less with Franzen and Cleary, the first lot more capable than the last, but all very good players. As for Homer, he's not a good skater but he works hard at fighting for the puck in the corners and getting it back to Pavel so he can work his magic; it would be folly to dismiss how he helps make ZDH (or whatever mutation thereof) click so well.

Pav doesn't need help obtaining pucks, yet I don't mean to diminish Homer's ability at mucking and winning puck battles but if he gets caught up ice, or even in a race, he's toast. Homer's main role is on the pp in front of the net. I think he has more skill than he gets credit for but as far as five on five play goes, he isn't going to inflate anybody's +/-...

[Doggy 130]

I am never coming back here.... Far too homer. Can't even talk hockey...

Awesome news. I've never seen a post from you that had a clue anyway.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

This. This is FULL of FAIL. First off, Norris goes to defencemen with most points aka Mike Green. Second, jesus christ, I think Lidstrom is top 3 best defenceman ever but c'mon! What he did for the past 6 seasons doesn't mean jacks*** so please shut up... its this season and this season only.

Not true in the slightest.

Historically, once you reach the top 5 in points or so... you have to start providing more evidence.

Mike Green is still pathetic defensively. The Norris winner can't lead all d-men in giveaways and be 3rd most turnover prone player overall in the NHL.

Not a single Norris candidate is even within 30% of Lidstrom's give away stat. The closest is Chara who has 35% more turn-overs than Lidstrom. Green has 256% more turn-overs.

You're impressed by Green because his style of floating in around waiting for a chance to make a rush is more fitting in with the Penguin's style. That's fine- I'm not saying the Pens don't know how to score goals (you have two guys on your team that are always threats to be tops in scoring overall).

I'm just saying that Green's #1, #2, and #3 priorities aren't defense.

It's also notable that for all Green's goals he's got zero OT goals and only 2 GW goals. Lidstrom has 1 OT winner (tied for 2nd among d-men) and he has 4 game winning goals (tied for 1st). Although Green does have a short handed goal (which Lidstrom doesn't yet have this year).

Regardless of what you think of Lidstrom's candidacy at this point he's hardly outmatched against Green in the game of Best Defenseman.

Best Forward With A 'D' Beside His Name? Well Green takes that handily.

{Green's a great young player, I'm just not drunk enough to believe he's the best D-man in the league!}

[unexplainable 0]

Streit, Wideman, and Green have all had good seasons. But Lidstrom's paycheck or the fact that less was expected out of them than was of Lidstrom has NOTHING to do with Lidstrom being more or less deserving of the Norris than they are. If you seriously think a player's paycheck or what fans expect of him should actually be a factor in whether he wins an award, then Andreas Lilja and Kyle Quincey should be First-Team All-Stars this year. Lidstrom was the best defenseman, therefore Lidstrom deserves the Norris. Chara, Boyle, Weber, Keith, Wideman, Rafalski, Green, and Markov would probably be my remaining top ten this year, in no order.

Lidstrom's paycheck absolutely has something to do with him winning the norris or not. Hes widely recognized and has been paid as the best defenseman in the world. His game isn't the same as last year and certainly not even close to that of two seasons ago. Thats what happens when players get older. They deteriorate. Don't act as if Lidstrom was miles ahead of the competition(Pronger, Nediermeyer, Chara) since the lockout. Lidstrom has been the best defenseman, as evident from his Norris' but that was in the past. Just because hes the perennial winner doesn't mean he has an automatic claim to the award even when his play doesn't justify it. The Wing's defensive woes can absolutely be attributed to the defensive core, as a whole playing terrible and yes that includes Lidstrom. He isn't playing like the Lidstrom of old but hes still our #1.

The Lidstrom love fest is getting old. Hes a great player, was a super star but is fading. It would be like saying Yzerman deserved the Hart in 2002.

I won't even address the Datsyuk for Selke claim. Its been beaten to death and you've been proven wrong multiple times. The only reason you won't give up and even take it as far as to discredit Datsyuk's Selke is because the new russian is threatening to overtake the old russian(Fedorov).

And again, you completely missed the point with the Lady Byng argument. Datsyuk's season HASN"T changed, as a matter of fact hes having a better year then the previous three. The players mentioned, specifically Marleau and St. Louis aren't having a better season then Datsyuk did this year or last. If Lidstrom had a better season this year than last, I would agree he would win a Norris but thats not the case, he regressed. That regression really cannot be seen in stats though.

If Datsyuk scored 75 points this season, had 60 PIMS or someone like Marleau scored 100+ points and had 20 PIM, then obviously give the Byng to someone else. But Datsyuk has done nothing to lose the Byng... and its that simple.

The Norris is Lidstrom's to lose and he has.

[CanadaBoy 151]

Not true in the slightest.

Historically, once you reach the top 5 in points or so... you have to start providing more evidence.

Mike Green is still pathetic defensively. The Norris winner can't lead all d-men in giveaways and be 3rd most turnover prone player overall in the NHL.

Not a single Norris candidate is even within 30% of Lidstrom's give away stat. The closest is Chara who has 35% more turn-overs than Lidstrom. Green has 256% more turn-overs.

You're impressed by Green because his style of floating in around waiting for a chance to make a rush is more fitting in with the Penguin's style. That's fine- I'm not saying the Pens don't know how to score goals (you have two guys on your team that are always threats to be tops in scoring overall).

I'm just saying that Green's #1, #2, and #3 priorities aren't defense.

It's also notable that for all Green's goals he's got zero OT goals and only 2 GW goals. Lidstrom has 1 OT winner (tied for 2nd among d-men) and he has 4 game winning goals (tied for 1st). Although Green does have a short handed goal (which Lidstrom doesn't yet have this year).

Regardless of what you think of Lidstrom's candidacy at this point he's hardly outmatched against Green in the game of Best Defenseman.

Best Forward With A 'D' Beside His Name? Well Green takes that handily.

{Green's a great young player, I'm just not drunk enough to believe he's the best D-man in the league!}

This is close enough

[norrisnick 1]

Lidstrom's paycheck absolutely has something to do with him winning the norris or not. Hes widely recognized and has been paid as the best defenseman in the world. His game isn't the same as last year and certainly not even close to that of two seasons ago. Thats what happens when players get older. They deteriorate.

He's not as good, but still better than anyone else. Lidstrom shouldn't be held to a higher standard than anyone else. You don't win the Norris for getting close to Nick. You have to be better.

Don't act as if Lidstrom was miles ahead of the competition(Pronger, Nediermeyer, Chara) since the lockout. Lidstrom has been the best defenseman, as evident from his Norris' but that was in the past. Just because hes the perennial winner doesn't mean he has an automatic claim to the award even when his play doesn't justify it.

Automatic claim? No. But he certainly sets the standard.

The Wing's defensive woes can absolutely be attributed to the defensive core, as a whole playing terrible and yes that includes Lidstrom. He isn't playing like the Lidstrom of old but hes still our #1.

Lidstrom and to a lesser extent Lilly are the only two guys keeping the defensive group from being rock bottom defensively. The woes are pervasive, but Lidstrom isn't adding to them. Can you imagine Rafalski's D if he wasn't next to Nick? Nik and Stuart have been a trainwreck as our 2nd pairing. Kronwall is going to finish the year with more goals against scored while on the ice than Lidstrom. That hasn't happend since 1995 when Paul Coffey did it. Nik is the second option ES and on the PK and he's been on the ice for more goals that Lidstrom. That's abysmally bad and there is no way Lidstrom can help that.

The Lidstrom love fest is getting old.

So that's the crux of it then. You're sick of the attention he gets. Too bad he isn't Russian, eh?

Hes a great player, was a super star but is fading. It would be like saying Yzerman deserved the Hart in 2002.

Considering Stevie never won a Hart it wouldn't be anything like it at all. Not to mention he was playing on one leg and literally a shadow of his former self. Nick is still the best D in the league. The only time Stevie had an argument for being among the best forwards was in his 80s heyday when he got blocked out by Wayne and Mario.

The Norris is Lidstrom's to lose and he has.

He hasn't because no one has done anything to beat him. Not Chara. Not Green. Not Boyle. Not Streit. Not anyone.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I would say Lidstrom is a better D than Ovechkin is a LW. and btw, this all started because you asked for everyone's opinions on awards. My opinion on the best player is Lidstrom. If you can't handle that, you shouldn't have started the thread. Ovechkin certainly makes the top 5 at worst of all players.

Basically, if you were drafting a team for one tournament, who would be first on your draft list? Malkin? Lidstrom? Ovechkin? Datsyuk? Crosby? Zetterberg? Chara?

The question is basically "If you were picking from the entire NHL, any player, who would you pick to start your team for a tournament?" I know we would have a lot of different answers, but mine would be Lidstrom.

You are arguing that Lidstrom isn't the best player in the world because you don't think Lidstrom has been the best defenseman in the league, so clearly picking him as the best player is a homer pick.

Eva, as much as I think Mr. 66 is wrong. And I think he's wrong on many levels with flawed assumptions and a complete lack of detail & acceptance of statistical data that's been presented to him.....I have to agree with him that you've been eating retard sandwiches again if you think Lidstrom is still the best player in the world.

First off, we've all watched the games and Nick hasn't been Nick at all this season. This is the worst he's looked in 10 years.

Secondly, he's never won the Pearson......EVER!!!!!! So, in all those years where he so clearly dominated the field he couldn't win a Pearson, but this year, as he trails a number of dmen in points, hasn't had nearly the typical Lidstrom like season and has been part of a D corps that has surrendered the 19th most goals against, you think he deserves a Pearson?

You're living in the past. He hasn't been as good as in years past. If you can't see that then you just don't want to.

I would argue he's still the best defender in the world and probably the guy I would choose if I had one game to play. Unfortunately the awards are not decided that way. You gotta string it together for a full season. And thus far, Chara has probably looked better than Nick overall. Green has the flash and the disgusting goal figures to merit consideration. IMO, it's Chara's to lose with Nick and Green 2nd/3rd.

One thing is for certain, and it's apparent right here on these boards where RED WINGS fans are having a hard time reaching consensus on the Norris. You see lots of Chara votes and an occassional Green vote. My guess is that if there's this much debate, and the outcome so definitely unclear vs years past right on our own homerific message board, that the outlook from the hockey world at large is going to be even less favorable to Nick this season.

If the Norris is debatable (which it is right now and you know it), any talk of the Pearson is absurd.

Edited March 17, 2009 by GordieSid&Ted

[eva unit zero 271]

I think you're looking at the Datsyuk vs. Zetterberg situation in 100x more detail than the people who vote on it do.. maybe I'm underestimating those people, but I think they see Datsyuk being top 5 in scoring, top 2 in takeaways, top 5 (?) in +/-, and simply being excellent at both ends of the rink, and they'll vote for him. The Red Wings lines have been juggled so much this season that it's hard even as a Wings fan to remember who played on what line and for how long.

Remember the Selke isn't just about being good defensively, which is why guys with 20-30 points or less aren't going to win it.

It's given to the player that demonstrates great qualities at both ends of the rink.

Now personally, I think Zetterberg is the better defensive player out of him and Pavel. Pav has that magical takeaway ability, but overall Z is more responsible and always the 1st choice when there's a PK or when a lead has to be defended at the end of the game.

However, I don't think Zetterberg has enough points or a good enough +/- this season to be chosen over Datsyuk or Parise.

Oh really?

The Frank J. Selke Trophy is awarded annually to the "National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game."

I'd say that even by your own statement, Z is more deserving by the actual definition of the trophy. Unfortunately, the Selke, much like the Norris and Hart, is a trophy that is often not awarded to the most deserving candidate.

[eva unit zero 271]

Eva, as much as I think Mr. 66 is wrong. And I think he's wrong on many levels with flawed assumptions and a complete lack of detail & acceptance of statistical data that's been presented to him.....I have to agree with him that you've been eating retard sandwiches again if you think Lidstrom is still the best player in the world.

First off, we've all watched the games and Nick hasn't been Nick at all this season. This is the worst he's looked in 10 years.

Secondly, he's never won the Pearson......EVER!!!!!!

The question was who do you think SHOULD win these trophies. Not who do you think WILL win these trophies, although that is the response that has been pouring out every third post. It's not my fault that defensemen don't get Pearson votes when they should.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

The question was who do you think SHOULD win these trophies. Not who do you think WILL win these trophies, although that is the response that has been pouring out every third post. It's not my fault that defensemen don't get Pearson votes when they should.

I understand the original intent of the thread. However, that should not preclude you from using rational thought and just a wee bit of objectivity.

Furthermore, it's nobody's "fault" that dmen don't get as many votes. There's nothing to fault. It's merely your opinion that they should get more votes or all the votes in Nick's case . The players get to vote and they don't vote the way you think they should. There's no fault in that. Just a simple matter of a 1000 member union disagreeing with you.

[eva unit zero 271]

I understand the original intent of the thread. However, that should not preclude you from using rational thought and just a wee bit of objectivity.

Furthermore, it's nobody's "fault" that dmen don't get as many votes. There's nothing to fault. It's merely your opinion that they should get more votes or all the votes in Nick's case . The players get to vote and they don't vote the way you think they should. There's no fault in that. Just a simple matter of a 1000 member union disagreeing with you.

So I've been eating retard sandwiches if I think Lidstrom is the best player, yet the majority of the forum picks Datsyuk for the Selke for no other reason than he won last season, and the fact that I provide significant reason why Datsyuk repeating as the Selke winner is unlikely holds no water with most people. Patrick Marleau has had a very good season at both ends of the ice; he has been mentioned among Selke candidates; and taken only 7 minor penalties all season. Martin St. Louis has only taken five, but his defensive game is lacking. Admittedly, Marleau's offense is not quite on Datsyuk's level, but Marleau plays on his team's second line with lower level linemates. Marleau is also his team's captain and more of the leadership burden falls on him than does on Datsyuk.

[Doggy 130]

Admittedly, Marleau's offense is not quite on Datsyuk's level, but Marleau plays on his team's second line with lower level linemates. Marleau is also his team's captain and more of the leadership burden falls on him than does on Datsyuk.[/font]

Lower than who? Marleau has played with Thornton and Clowe almost all season. They've changed things up recently because of injuries and the addition of Moen.

I'm pretty sure he was playing with Setoguchi and Thornton last game against the Ducks. if that's their second line, what's their first?

[dicksmack 33]

Oh really?

The Frank J. Selke Trophy is awarded annually to the "National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game."

I'd say that even by your own statement, Z is more deserving by the actual definition of the trophy. Unfortunately, the Selke, much like the Norris and Hart, is a trophy that is often not awarded to the most deserving candidate.

To you that definition means that the award must go to a "shutdown" forward. The years a high-scoring, two-way forward won the Selke (Fedorov, Gilmour and Datsyuk) the field of candidates playing a strictly "shutdown" game and HAVING STRONG seasons was sparse. To say these two-way guys didn't deserve the award is kind of laughable. And last year, Hank played a similar style of game as Pav but Pav was MUCH BETTER at it... Hands down, forwards and backwards (literally). Hank is not a "shutdown" forward. He's too good offensively to play that role to the benefit of the team.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

So I've been eating retard sandwiches if I think Lidstrom is the best player, yet the majority of the forum picks Datsyuk for the Selke for no other reason than he won last season, and the fact that I provide significant reason why Datsyuk repeating as the Selke winner is unlikely holds no water with most people. Patrick Marleau has had a very good season at both ends of the ice; he has been mentioned among Selke candidates; and taken only 7 minor penalties all season. Martin St. Louis has only taken five, but his defensive game is lacking. Admittedly, Marleau's offense is not quite on Datsyuk's level, but Marleau plays on his team's second line with lower level linemates. Marleau is also his team's captain and more of the leadership burden falls on him than does on Datsyuk.

Eva, you trying out for a dodge ball team or what?

I could care less about the Selke talk right now and this discussion regarding Lidstrom has nothing whatsoever to do with Datsyuk. I don't know that I would pick Datsyuk myself.

But as you state yourself, you use stats to back up your assertions that there are better choices for the Selke than Datsyuk. Great. Too bad you can't use that same thinking when it comes to Lidstrom.

YOU KNOW Lidstrom hasn't been good enough to walk with the Norris this year. He may win it and I hope he does. But he's trailed off from years past. And in doing so, Chara and a couple of others have had strong seasons.

19th ranked defense.

He's sitting in a tie with Boyle for 5th/6th in points. How often has the 5th/6th place point getter won the Norris? You might not agree with it but the parameters have been set for deciding the Norris, the data is available and its pretty easy to see that Lidstrom hasn't put together a rock solid Norris campaign this year.

He may be the best for a shift or a game or a week's worth of games. But for the season as a whole, he has not put it all together in a way that makes him the obvious Norris favorite.

You can think whatever you want about Nick. But for a guy who relies heavily on statistics and claims to watch alot of hockey, you're far from being analytical and objective when it comes to Nick. I would argue you are doing the polar opposite of what you do with Datsyuk. You constantly play down Datsyuk and you constantly play up Nick. You use stats to bring Datsyuk down in comparison to others yet you don't use any stats to back up your raising Nick onto a pedestal for this season. My guess is the stats don't look to be in your favor.

It's no skin off my bones but your failure to be objective whatsoever about Lidstrom is disappointing.

[Datsyerberger 279]

So I've been eating retard sandwiches if I think Lidstrom is the best player, yet the majority of the forum picks Datsyuk for the Selke for no other reason than he won last season, and the fact that I provide significant reason why Datsyuk repeating as the Selke winner is unlikely holds no water with most people. Patrick Marleau has had a very good season at both ends of the ice; he has been mentioned among Selke candidates; and taken only 7 minor penalties all season. Martin St. Louis has only taken five, but his defensive game is lacking. Admittedly, Marleau's offense is not quite on Datsyuk's level, but Marleau plays on his team's second line with lower level linemates. Marleau is also his team's captain and more of the leadership burden falls on him than does on Datsyuk.

You fail to mention that Datsyuk is a more physical player than Marleau this year, the massive discrepancy in their TA:GA (which is not the end-all be-all for a Selke, but certainly an examinable factor to determine their respective control over the puck), and how, upon observation, Datsyuk is clearly the more dominating player on the ice.

This is going to sound insanely homer of me, but so be it because I believe it: Datsyuk is one of the most clearly dominant players on the ice (puck/game-control wise) since Bobby Orr, and is probably about as close to you can get to such with the league's current talent level and parity.