Jonathan Ericsson not afraid to fight

[Wombat 26]

We're a long way away from having 10 guys that do it. Although we do have 10 guys that are pretty good at turtling.

I was not trying to imply that this was the current status of the team, it clearly is not. But I don't think the answer is one guy that pounds faces. There has to be a general team toughness, and that is what those 97/98 teams had. McCarty, Kocur (at that age), Pushor, Lapointe, Shanahan, and Konstantinov all had 4+ fights, and I don't think any were an enforcer in the true sense of the word. All were legitimate hockey players that added toughness to the team.

Maybe I overstated by saying we should have 10 guys do it, but even 5 would be nice and would improve overall team toughness more than 1 true enforcer.

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

I was not trying to imply that this was the current status of the team, it clearly is not. But I don't think the answer is one guy that pounds faces. There has to be a general team toughness, and that is what those 97/98 teams had. McCarty, Kocur (at that age), Pushor, Lapointe, Shanahan, and Konstantinov all had 4+ fights, and I don't think any were an enforcer in the true sense of the word. All were legitimate hockey players that added toughness to the team.

Maybe I overstated by saying we should have 10 guys do it, but even 5 would be nice and would improve overall team toughness more than 1 true enforcer.

I would agree with this. I'd like next time we get into a scrum and some other guy tries to bop one of the Wings in the face that Wing can turn around and give it back. Not the sneers and leers that Sammy gives.

[Guest Shoreline]

Hopefully Eric stays away from fighting. This team needs a tough defenseman, but doesn't need him to be an enforcer. This team doesn't need to beat people up a la the 80s (when they weren't winning cups) to win.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Why do people always get excited about the way a guy fights in the AHL? How many fights a guy has in any other league outside of the NHL carries over to the big leagues about 5% of the time. I anticipate seeing guys like Abdelkader and Ericsson in about 3 fights a year on average. These guys will not drop the gloves at any chance - they'll pick their spots sparingly.

I disagree with Ericsson and Abdelkader especially. Theyre quite fiesty guys Ericsson espeically has a mean streak, and Abdelkader has been very open about his love of fighting.

Only reason Ericsson has been quite this year is his healing wrist. I expect at least 5 or 6 fight from each other next year. Kopecky is different cos even in the AHL he only had like 3 fights and is generally a soft player.

Kopecky's better off as a fabric softener spokesman than a fighter.

I see Ericsson and Abdelkader at about 3 fights a year as well. Players typically fight a bit more when they are younger and trying to sell themselves or find their identity. But then again there are always exceptions...

Seeing Big Rig and Abadabadelkader with ~3 fights a year is great. We just need guys that play great hockey and aren't afraid to man up. When you subtract staged fights, there aren't so many instances where fighting's a necessity, so having 3 or 4 guys who fight 3 times a year should be more than enough. With Big Rig, 'Kader and Pain Train that's 3 of that type of guy. Train Hudler to swing low and swing hard and we've got 4.

[uk_redwing 495]

Hopefully Eric stays away from fighting. This team needs a tough defenseman, but doesn't need him to be an enforcer.

Im hoping my sarcasm sensor is broken here...

[Guest Shoreline]

Im hoping my sarcasm sensor is broken here...

No need for sarcasm. Some teams can win with fighting and enforcing being highly prominent on their team. That isn't the Detroit Red Wings, however. They've proven this over the last, oh, 15'ish years.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Shoreline

[StaticWithABeat 0]

I'm not a hardcore pro or anti-fighting advocate, but it is definitely refreshing to see someone who doesn't run for the hills when the going gets tough. I like Samuelsson/Franzen/Maltby/etc. as much as the next guy, but I can only witness their displays of "toughness" so many times before I get depressed.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

No need for sarcasm. Some teams can win with fighting and enforcing being highly prominent on their team. That isn't the Detroit Red Wings, however. They've proven this over the last, oh, 15'ish years.

This is news to me. Either none of the below are considered players that can fight and stick up for teammates or you have issues with addition. I count 2 of the last 4 years since the lockout with the only cup winning year being last year.

93-94: Bob Probert, Dallas Drake, Darren McCarty, Martin Lapointe

94-95: Bob Probert, Dallas Drake, Darren McCarty, Martin Lapointe, Keith Primeau

95-96: Keith Primeau, Darren McCarty, Stu Grimson, Martin Lapointe

96-97: Brendan Shanahan, Darren McCarty, Martin Lapointe, Jamie Pushor, Aaron Ward, Joey Kocur

97-98: Brendan Shanahan, Darren McCarty, Martin Lapointe, Jamie Pushor, Aaron Ward, Joey Kocur

98-99: Brendan Shanahan, Darren McCarty, Martin Lapointe, Aaron Ward, Joey Kocur

99-00: Brendan Shanahan, Darren McCarty, Martin Lapointe, Aaron Ward

00-01: Brendan Shanahan, Darren McCarty, Martin Lapointe, Aaron Ward

01-02: Brendan Shanahan, Darren McCarty, Sean Avery

02-03: Brendan Shanahan, Darren McCarty

03-04: Brendan Shanahan, Darren McCarty, Derian Hatcher

04-05: Lockout

05-06: Brendan Shanahan

06-07: 0

07-08: Dallas Drake, Darren McCarty, Aaron Downey

08-09: 0

Also note, that the aformentioned players had multiple fighting majors, while the team make up from 2004 and earlier still had a number of players with limited fighting majors that could still stand up for themselves if needed.

Edited April 9, 2009 by ManLuv4Clears

[uk_redwing 495]

No need for sarcasm. Some teams can win with fighting and enforcing being highly prominent on their team. That isn't the Detroit Red Wings, however. They've proven this over the last, oh, 15'ish years.

Last 15 years you say...

Probert? Primeau? Gallant? Carkner? Grimson? Kocur? Shanahan? McCarty? Lapointe? Konstantinov? Pushor? Fischer? Avery? Bootland? Drake? Downey?

What a soft bunch of players...although the last 6 season or so the wings have lost nearly all toughness they once had, theyve only won one cup in that time, in a season where they had Downey, Drake and McCarty. Last time they won the cup they had McCarty, Shanahan and Avery.

[Guest Shoreline]

That's some nice names, even though some weren't even on the Wings when they won cups, or played zero (or practically zero) role. But more to the point, you'll need to explain why the Wings have been near dead last, or dead last, in fighting in each of those four cup seasons, and since the 80s, drastically reducing in fights, complimented with 4 stanley cups as they fight significantly less? That's likely because, regarding Ericsson and his role, toughness = ok, enforcer/goon = not for the Red Wings.

When the Wings won the cup last season they were easily dead last in fighting. This idea that the Wings need goons to win is highly untrue. Some physical presence is nice, especially with guys like Ericsson to take the boards or clear the front, but his fight wasn't even about enforcing, just defending himself.

If people want to pick teams that can win with goons that fight a whole lot, they might want to pick the Ducks.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Shoreline

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

The fact that we wouldnt mind a tougher team like Red Wings past, take this slowly because I hear it much to much, DOESNT MEAN WE WANT TO CHEER FOR ANOTHER TEAM. We're Red Wings fans, our opinions on hockey itself, just makes us want tougher teams. It isnt such a big demand, I'm fine with what we had last year, or having a McCarty and Shanahan who can play and answere the bell. Unfortunately, it probably wont happen, so I dont ***** and moan as much as I used too, it just annoys the hell out of me when people say "you might want to cheer for etc." (Not going off on you selectively Shoreline, I just hate that saying.)

[Guest Shoreline]

Sorry, but I just won't agree that we need to be like 20 years ago and be kicking other players' asses all the time when this team wasn't winning cups 20 years ago, yet fighting a whole lot. I would like to say that teams that focus so extensively on fighting don't win championships at all anymore, but some teams have actually made it work, like the Diucks. Just not the Red Wings, and I don't really care to screw around with a formula that works.

[uk_redwing 495]

When the Wings won the cup last season they were easily dead last in fighting.

Please do a bit of research mate before making all these claims.

Fighting Majors 2007-08

27 Buffalo Sabres 26 Fights

28 Toronto Maple Leafs 25 Fights

29 Los Angeles Kings 22 Fights

30 Detroit Red Wings 21 Fights

Easily dead last? And the only reason that Detroit was last in the 07-08 season is that Downey, unlike other HW's, doesnt fight off the faceoff for no reason. If he did fight off the faceoff like that, then Detroit would be much higher up than that.

[Guest Shoreline]

Actually, I did do research, which is why I made the claim, and am not wrong.

Wings & Fights:

96-97: 23rd (of 26 teams)

97-98: 25th (of 26 teams)

01-02: 30th (of 30 teams)

07-08: 30th (of 30 teams)

If you'd actually see the trend, since people who make baseless claims tend to also love stats so much, it is this view of a rock-em-sock-'em Wings team winning cups is rather misinformed and only lives in a world of idealism, or in Anaheim.

And, thusfar, the Wings being in 2nd place (yet again in the Top 3) isn't proving this wrong, and the problems the Wings have faced in the regular season have nothing at all to do with enforcers or fighting, but a lazy ass defense and inconsistent goaltending. So people bitching about enforcers or in some uproar about fighters and trying to connect it to the Wings winning cups have no weight at all behind their claims.

Let me put it more bluntly -- there's no point in blowing steam about enforcers and fighters regarding the Red Wings. They don't need 'em. They need tough guys who know how to hit, be a physical presence, and stay out of the box. This has been what works best.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Shoreline

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Actually, I did do research, which is why I made the claim, and am not wrong.

Wings & Fights:

96-97: 23rd (of 26 teams)

97-98: 25th (of 26 teams)

01-02: 30th (of 30 teams)

07-08: 30th (of 30 teams)

If you'd actually see the trend, since people who make baseless claims tend to also love stats so much, it is this view of a rock-em-sock-'em Wings team winning cups is rather misinformed and only lives in a world of idealism, or in Anaheim.

And, thusfar, the Wings being in 2nd place (yet again in the Top 3) isn't proving this wrong, and the problems the Wings have faced in the regular season have nothing at all to do with enforcers or fighting, but a lazy ass defense and inconsistent goaltending. So people bitching about enforcers or in some uproar about fighters and trying to connect it to the Wings winning cups have no weight at all behind their claims.

Let me put it more bluntly -- there's no point in blowing steam about enforcers and fighters regarding the Red Wings. They don't need 'em. They need tough guys who know how to hit, be a physical presence, and stay out of the box. This has been what works best.

I know you feel proud of yourself for making that post, so let me bring you down from heaven to tell you how meaningless it was.

No one has ever argued that the Wings fought many times in seasons when they won the Cup. We know that the Wings were near last in fighting majors even in those seasons. It just so happens that in all those seasons we carried an enforcer on the team. This is a fact that can't be disproven no matter how hard you research.

Enforcers don't just fight. They set a physical tempo for the rest of the team. The other players feed off of that example. That is not something that you can find in any stats, but only in how the team wound up. I don't think it's a coincidence that the team won Cups in those seasons when they had such a guy, and didn't in seasons when they didn't dress an enforcer. The Wings last year looked more physical than they do this year, and more physical than they were in 2006 or 2007, and it carried over into the playoffs.

In fact, your last sentence sounds idiotic, since you said that we needed tough guys who know how to hit and be a physical presence. Well, that's what McCarty and Downey did for the Wings last year.

So stop gloating, and throw away those fight stats that everyone already knows about and never said anything against. It's not just about fighting. It's an attitude thing. No one on our 4th line has any attitude right now, and it just so happens that almost every enforcer in the league brings it on every single shift with a physical presence.

[Guest Shoreline]

I know you feel proud of yourself for making that post, so let me bring you down from heaven to tell you how meaningless it was.

No one has ever argued that the Wings fought many times in seasons when they won the Cup. We know that the Wings were near last in fighting majors even in those seasons. It just so happens that in all those seasons we carried an enforcer on the team. This is a fact that can't be disproven no matter how hard you research.

Enforcers don't just fight. They set a physical tempo for the rest of the team. The other players feed off of that example. That is not something that you can find in any stats, but only in how the team wound up. I don't think it's a coincidence that the team won Cups in those seasons when they had such a guy, and didn't in seasons when they didn't dress an enforcer. The Wings last year looked more physical than they do this year, and more physical than they were in 2006 or 2007, and it carried over into the playoffs.

In fact, your last sentence sounds idiotic, since you said that we needed tough guys who know how to hit and be a physical presence. Well, that's what McCarty and Downey did for the Wings last year.

So stop gloating, and throw away those fight stats that everyone already knows about and never said anything against. It's not just about fighting. It's an attitude thing. No one on our 4th line has any attitude right now, and it just so happens that almost every enforcer in the league brings it on every single shift with a physical presence.

You couldn't be more incorrect if you tried. It's rather ironic that you love to cite statistics about how many cups the Wings won with a person on the team who gets into a fight and then so easily dismiss something quite relevant which is the Wings don't get many fighting majors, and since enforcers ENFORCE things, that means they get into fight. McSorley wasn't an enforcer because he would stand there if Gretzky got hit, he would pound the living f*** out of someone. Enforcers today fight even more than that because now they just look for someone to fight just to stay on the roster. Do you even watch hockey or just spend all your time whining about enforcers? Enforcer gets on the ice, maybe makes a few hits, then makes a bee-line for someone to fight. This ain't your yesteryear enforcer anymore. Quit living in the 80s. Mac and Downey the Wings easily did without in the playoffs. Didn't do s***. Sorry. Love Downey, Love Mac, especially for what Mac did in years past, and Downey for apparently being a good locker room presence, but you have no argument. It's horrible, and you're like an OCD pest who can't appreciate his team and tries to find reasons to *****. Get help.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Shoreline

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

You couldn't be more incorrect if you tried. It's rather ironic that you love to cite statistics about how many cups the Wings won with a person on the team who gets into a fight and then so easily dismiss something quite relevant which is the Wings don't get many fighting majors, and since enforcers ENFORCE things, that means they get into fight. McSorley wasn't an enforcer because he would stand there if Gretzky got hit, he would pound the living f*** out of someone. Enforcers today fight even more than that because now they just look for someone to fight just to stay on the roster. Do you even watch hockey or just spend all your time whining about enforcers? Enforcer gets on the ice, maybe makes a few hits, then makes a bee-line for someone to fight. This ain't your yesteryear enforcer anymore. Quit living in the 80s. Mac and Downey the Wings easily did without in the playoffs. Didn't do s***. Sorry. Love Downey, Love Mac, especially for what Mac did in years past, and Downey for apparently being a good locker room presence, but you have no argument. It's horrible, and you're like an OCD pest who can't appreciate his team and tries to find reasons to *****. Get help.

None of your post made any sense.

First off, enforcers fight less now than they did in the 80's. Check the stats if you don't believe me.

I didn't dismiss anything. I explained that the stats you showed were true, and then dissected them for their irrelevance. You're just crying like a baby because I explained to you why your earlier post wasn't as significant as you thought it was.

You also didn't address anything that I said about enforcers setting a tempo for the rest of their team to feed off of.

Basically, you posted an incoherent paragraph, made yourself sound silly yet again, and finished by calling me a whiner who can't appreciate his team, even though that had nothing to do with my post at all. I was just pointing out my outlook on enforcers and their usefulness as it pertains to this team.

You need to stop acting like a baby and stop accusing everyone of not being real fans. That's why nobody here really likes you. You have some sense of superiority, even though there's no real foundation for it in any of your posts.

[Guest Shoreline]

None of your post made any sense.

First off, enforcers fight less now than they did in the 80's. Check the stats if you don't believe me.

I didn't dismiss anything. I explained that the stats you showed were true, and then dissected them for their irrelevance. You're just crying like a baby because I explained to you why your earlier post wasn't as significant as you thought it was.

You also didn't address anything that I said about enforcers setting a tempo for the rest of their team to feed off of.

Basically, you posted an incoherent paragraph, made yourself sound silly yet again, and finished by calling me a whiner who can't appreciate his team, even though that had nothing to do with my post at all. I was just pointing out my outlook on enforcers and their usefulness as it pertains to this team.

You need to stop acting like a baby and stop accusing everyone of not being real fans. That's why nobody here really likes you. You have some sense of superiority, even though there's no real foundation for it in any of your posts.

The role you suggest enforcers play were relevant 20 years ago. And you're damn straight enforcers fight less, because they're being weeded out. However, there are coaches like Lemaire who cite how useful Boogaard is as a so-called "presence" on the ice. By presence, he means someone to just be intimidating to the other team, not necessarily to score. So the element of enforcers as I suggested is exactly what it is, and they are very much less relevant today than the days you wish the league would return to. The Wings are a testament, and more of a testament than even the Wild or any other team, that it doesn't take the enforcer philosophy to win a cup. Fights are not necessary, and scorers/roleplayers are. Hence why Downey's ass is in GR, and those who will be called up first are Helm or Leino. Your logic is made of fail and has been. And damn straight I have a sense of superiority, I at least can appreciate my team, instead of whining about useless crap, or making hilariously facetious "nobody here really likes you" comments, which is your own little attempt at "superiority" which you claim I'm full of, i.e. my opinion = everyone else's -- wrong. You've already deluded yourself about enforcers on this team, but there's no reason to fool yourself there as well.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Shoreline

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

The role you suggest enforcers play were relevant 20 years ago. And you're damn straight enforcers fight less, because they're being weeded out. However, there are coaches like Lemaire who cite how useful Boogaard is as a so-called "presence" on the ice. By presence, he means someone to just be intimidating to the other team, not necessarily to score. So the element of enforcers as I suggested is exactly what it is, and they are very much less relevant today than the days you wish the league would return to. The Wings are a testament, and more of a testament than even the Wild or any other team, that it doesn't take the enforcer philosophy to win a cup. Fights are not necessary, and scorers/roleplayers are. Hence why Downey's ass is in GR, and those who will be called up first are Helm or Leino. Your logic is made of fail and has been. And damn straight I have a sense of superiority, I at least can appreciate my team, instead of whining about useless crap, or making hilariously facetious "nobody here really likes you" comments, which is your own little attempt at "superiority" which you claim I'm full of, i.e. my opinion = everyone else's -- wrong. You've already deluded yourself about enforcers on this team, but there's no reason to fool yourself there as well.

If enforcers were irrelevant, Downey and McCarty wouldn't have played at all last year, and wouldn't be playing anywhere in the league. All the Wings have proven is that powder puff lineups can have good regular seasons. It hasn't translated yet to playoff success. If it happens this year, it's be the first time.

And I'm not deluded about enforcers. I realize what the Wings stance on the issue is, and that's why me and many other posters are unhappy about it. It's not because we're ungrateful, it's because we like that part of the game, and we believe it can fit in Detroit, because we have useless players currently on the 4th line. You just can't draw the line, so you accuse us all of not being real fans.

[Guest Shoreline]

If enforcers were irrelevant, Downey and McCarty wouldn't have played at all last year, and wouldn't be playing anywhere in the league. All the Wings have proven is that powder puff lineups can have good regular seasons. It hasn't translated yet to playoff success. If it happens this year, it's be the first time.

And I'm not deluded about enforcers. I realize what the Wings stance on the issue is, and that's why me and many other posters are unhappy about it. It's not because we're ungrateful, it's because we like that part of the game, and we believe it can fit in Detroit, because we have useless players currently on the 4th line. You just can't draw the line, so you accuse us all of not being real fans.

Downey has some skill, but if articles on Downey wasn't sufficient for you, his locker room presence is mostly what was praised, which really isn't sufficient enough. Hence why Helm and Leino have been favored and next season will be similarly favored. And if you think enforcers have been going away during the season for the Wings, they go away entirely in the playoffs. If they don't magically turn into goal scorers, they don't play. Shanahan was not primarily in any sense of the word known as a fighter, it was just a plus that he had a few fights, for entertainment's sake. He was a goal scorer. And why Downey and Mac tend to go away in recent playoff years is because they don't have the scoring touch and are a defensive liability. Helm and Leino >>>> Downey.

If the Wings lack of enforcers bothers you now, you'll likely be even further bothered by the Wings even likelier staying away from enforcers in the near future. What will you do then? Continue bitching all the time? Or maybe find a team that fights all the time and is loaded up with enforcers? Looks like the Bruins are your team this year.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Shoreline

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Downey has some skill, but if articles on Downey wasn't sufficient for you, his locker room presence is mostly what was praised, which really isn't sufficient enough. Hence why Helm and Leino have been favored and next season will be similarly favored. And if you think enforcers have been going away during the season for the Wings, they go away entirely in the playoffs. If they don't magically turn into goal scorers, they don't play. Shanahan was not primarily in any sense of the word known as a fighter, it was just a plus that he had a few fights, for entertainment's sake. He was a goal scorer. And why Downey and Mac tend to go away in recent playoff years is because they don't have the scoring touch and are a defensive liability. Helm and Leino >>>> Downey.

If the Wings lack of enforcers bothers you now, you'll likely be even further bothered by the Wings even likelier staying away from enforcers in the near future. What will you do then? Continue bitching all the time? Or maybe find a team that fights all the time and is loaded up with enforcers? Looks like the Bruins are your team this year.

How can anyone take you seriously around here when you incorporate s*** like this into every post just to piss people off?

You're not really a fan, but just a crazy fanatic.

[Guest Shoreline]

Real fans make sure to perpetually whine until they get the team they want, regardless of if the team wins or not. If you actually cheer for your team and merely want them to win with what they have, rather than whine about what they don't (i.e. support your friggen coach/GM who've won more cups than you), you're a fanatic/homer/nutcase and nobody likes you. Oh, and you stink like poo.

As one can see, your argument is to be taken very seriously.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Shoreline

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Real fans make sure to perpetually whine until they get the team they want, regardless of if the team wins or not. If you actually cheer for your team and merely want them to win with what they have, rather than whine about what they don't (i.e. support your friggen coach/GM who've won more cups than you), you're a fanatic/homer/nutcase and nobody likes you. Oh, and you stink like poo.

As one can see, your argument is to be taken very seriously.

That's not what I said, and you know it.

A real fan is just about anyone who's on this forum.

A fanatic is someone like you who constantly accuses people of not being real fans just because they voice their opinions on an issue.

[Guest Shoreline]

That's not what I said, and you know it.

A real fan is just about anyone who's on this forum.

A fanatic is someone like you who constantly accuses people of not being real fans just because they voice their opinions on an issue.

A real fan is what I call a tolerable and reasonable one, i.e. one that isn't so full of negativity they actually look like they enjoy watching games on occasion. At least, I thought that was the point of spending time watching hockey. Like a specific few here, all you do is piss and moan, and you specifically target negative occurrences in the game to criticize the team, which is more than obviously coming from someone who tries to come off as reasonable, yet isn't in the slightest bit.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Shoreline

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

A real fan is what I call a tolerable and reasonable one, i.e. one that isn't so full of negativity they actually look like they enjoy watching games on occasion. At least, I thought that was the point of spending time watching hockey. Like a specific few here, all you do is piss and moan, and you specifically target negative occurrences in the game to criticize the team, which is more than obviously coming from someone who tries to come off as reasonable, yet isn't in the slightest bit.

Did you ever stop to think that people come to this site to talk about the Wings and some of the problems they may be having? This is an internet forum where people argue with each other, right?

And I don't always complain. There's a handful of players on this team I've always said good things about as players. I just feel no need to constantly post about how great Lidstrom is or how good Datsyuk's dekes are. Those things are just a given. I appreciate them, but in doing so I don't feel the need to constantly post about them like some infant.

You just don't like my posts because you don't like anyone criticizing Ozzie's overall performance this season, because you're an Ozzie homer, and you don't see the value of having an enforcer on this team because, you don't like enforcers.

All that's fine, but to accuse people of not being real fans just because we post in goalie and enforcer threads (2 topics you don't like), makes you come off pretty badly around here.

BTW, I guess all Red Sox fans aren't real fans based on your definition of what a fan is. Like I said earlier, just about anyone who comes to this site is a real fan. You need to come off your position on this.