will wings retire fedorov's 91?

[Rivalred 630]

What player?

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/1658...uries-No-6.html

[egroen 384]

What player?

Check my sig.

[Ms_Hockey 0]

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/1658...uries-No-6.html

That doesn't even make sense. What's the point? And really, don't fans deserve to know?

[Holmstrom96 347]

i know most fans will remember sergei fedorov very well. he is in my humble opinion one of the most explosive and best wings ever. maybe he was pricy and a fancy player but he was one of the most clutch playoff guys ever for red wings and he had almost 1000 point for us. he was also a leader and probably the best player on 3 stanley cup clubs for us. no one has wore the number 91 since sergei the fancy. do u guys think wings will retire his number? i think so

Fedorov was good, but I don't think he had character.

I say no way to number retirement.

[Electrophile 3,554]

If there's a debate, the answer is no. He did good things with us, but he basically pissed on our faces on the way out the door. I cannot see our management rewarding that with a retired number.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Not everyone who has their number retired left the team in good terms whether it was by them retiring, being traded, or signing with a different team. Character has nothing to do with getting your number retired by the Wings, it is what you did for the organization, which is why Fedorov will get his number retired by the Wings.

[Electrophile 3,554]

Sorry, I can't see it happening. And it shouldn't happen. Fedorov is not a franchise player like Steve and Nick. He didn't define the team. Was he instrumental? Sure, but so were all our other top-tier players on the team at the time.

I want to see Vladdy's number retired, but what Ilitch has done insofar as take his number out of circulation is sufficient for right now.

[RockyMountainWingGal 108]

Not everyone who has their number retired left the team in good terms whether it was by them retiring, being traded, or signing with a different team. Character has nothing to do with getting your number retired by the Wings, it is what you did for the organization, which is why Fedorov will get his number retired by the Wings.

Yet the organization gets to ultimately decide if "what you did" is worthy of their rafters. As long as the Ilitches own the Wings, there will be no #91 in the rafters.

[Guest Crymson]

Montreal retired Roy's number

The Red Wings are not the Canadiens.

[LeftWinger 4,949]

Not everyone who has their number retired left the team in good terms whether it was by them retiring, being traded, or signing with a different team. Character has nothing to do with getting your number retired by the Wings, it is what you did for the organization, which is why Fedorov will get his number retired by the Wings.

http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=1617901

Please read the above and see if you agree. I hope you are right, but I am doubtfull...

One of the benchmarks is games played with the organization. That outweighs points and stats. If yo give basically what amounts to an entire career to this organization, they will give you their ultimate thanks and recognition. And that is honoring a player with the utmost honor, hanging his number from the rafters, so not only were you a Red Wing for life, you will be a Red Wing forever, and noone will EVER replace you or wear your number.

If you look at the players already there. They aren't necessariy the highest scoring Red Wings (although Howe and Yzerman definately fill that requirment.) They are players who gave thier (hockey) life and sometimes more to this club.

If you are going by points alone, or games played alone, then both Lindsey and Abel are below Fedorov in those particular respects. Zetterberg is only 58 points behind Abel and Datsyuk is already ahead of Abel in points. Holmstrom has played in 811 games and is only 39 points behind Abel. Abel only played in 570 games. Would that mean that these current Wings are locks for the rafters too? Honetly, when thier contracts are up I fully believe #13 & #40 have a great shot for being honored that way. Holmstrom has another two years on his contract, wil probably re-sign here for another or two, so when he reaches 1000 games and 500+ points, he will get serious consideration. Especially since he has been a huge part of these Stanley Cup runs. And that, I believe, is the winning combo.

Longevity + Dedication + Points (very little importance) + Importance to this teams Championship success.

All that added together equals the guys that are up there now and soon:

Locks: Lidstrom, Draper, Osgood

Probable: Holmstrom, (and after their contracts)Zetterberg, Datsyu.

Outside Chance: Fedorov, Maltby (better chance than Feds)

And although they were important while they were here, the likes of Shanny, Hasek, Hull, Robitaille, Brown, Kozlov, Larionov & Chelios, will NOT have their numbers retired. Even if Hossa re-signs for 10 years, highly doubtful he'll have his number retired. He may even petition Maltby for #18 after Maltby retires.

Another reason Fedorov probably won't is, remember, he actually re-signed somewhere else TWICE. With Anaheim and in 1998 when he held out for most the season and signed a contract with Carolina. So he left twice and even though he was very important to te Cup wins in 1998 and 2002, only because Ilitch didn't felt he had to outdo his arch-rival Karmonos, Fedoov could have been and ex-Wing a LONG time ago and only had 1 Cup win here. That is not very dedicated to this team or city. Ilitch was dedicated to Fedorov, but Fedorov turned his back on him twice. ALthough the Anaheim fiasco had a little more involved, he left for Carolina for the money,

[StevieY'sguy 1]

Where on earth are people coming up with these "probabilities." Ogsood, Draper, Shanny, what?

Theres a reason why numbers don't get retired all the time. Its once in a blue moon that it happens, and thus far, there are 3 criteria that have to be considered:

1. Commitment to the Red Wings - this can usually be circumvented if the player was traded against his will

2. Inducted into the HHOF

3. Considered one of the best at your position ALL TIME.

Osgood has NOT EVER been considered one of the best all time at his position. At this point, whether folks like it or not, you can easily look at Osgood's wins and chalk it up to the teams he played behind. Nobody thinks of Osgood being the reason the Wings were great for years on end. We've had all kinds of goaltenders and had success. We've won the cup 4 times with 3 different goaltenders. Osgood has never been a common denominator to our success. That alone should tell you his number won't hang. And it shouldn't. That puts Osgood on par with Lidstrom, Yzerman, Howe, Abel, etc. And he simply does not belong in that category.

By your own standards Osgood should get his number retired

1. "Commitment to the Red Wings - this can usually be circumvented if the player was traded against his will" The Wings put Osgood on waivers after they acquired Hasek, it was not his choice to leave, it's not like he was a free agent

2. "Inducted into the Hall of Fame" I laugh at the skepticism on this topic, Osgood is tied for 10th in wins all time with Hasek and is in the top 20 all time in career goals against average (ahead of guys like Hall, Belfour, Sawchuk, Broda, and Roy), he's won 3 cups, 2 as a playoff starter and may very well win a third this year. Case closed.

3. "Considered one of the best at your position all time" Ozzie has the same curse that Yzerman did, Steve played at the same time as guys like Gretzky, Mario, and Messier and was perenially underrated because of the surplus of talent that was all in the league at the same time. Ozzie played in the same time period as Brodeur, Roy, Hasek (who some consider to be the 1st, 2nd and 3rd best goaltenders of all time) and Belfour who is also one of the top 10 goalies to ever play the game. Had none of those great goalies played at the same time as Ozzie, he would be considered the greatest of this generation. An all time top 25 goaltender should not be downgraded just because he played at the same time as 4 of the top 10 all time.....also as far as Osgood wins being chalked up to the teams he played behind, Brodeur has spent his whole career with NJ, who up until the last 2-3 years had the most defensively minded and built team in the NHL, so you can chalk many of his wins up to that. Roy had numerous great players in front of him in Montreal for most of his time there, and had excellent teams in front of him in Colorado. Osgood should not be punished because he played for an organization that knew how to build a team. Osgood also has been one of the all time best playoff goaltenders. He's tied for 4th all time in playoff shutouts, and has a career GAA of 2.11 in the postseason. without a doubt he should be in the rafters

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Longevity + Dedication + Points (very little importance) + Importance to this teams Championship success.

What leads you to that conclusion? All of the retired Wings were great scorers in their day. None of the low scoring members of those teams have their numbers retired, and even some great players from that era haven't been given the honor (perhaps wrongfully so) like Red Kelly.

[C-TownWing 0]

Chelios? No way - maybe if he goes back to the Hawks and they actually win a Cup with him doubtful) they'll hang it there.

He'll be retired there eventually, Cup or not. He's one of the top 5 or so players in franchise history, and I have to think that a lot of the old grudges have melted away, especially with Dollar Bill dead.

My final word on this: Lidstrom and Osgood yes, Datsyuk and Zetterberg maybe if they keep it up, everyone else no.

[LeftWinger 4,949]

What leads you to that conclusion? All of the retired Wings were great scorers in their day. None of the low scoring members of those teams have their numbers retired, and even some great players from that era haven't been given the honor (perhaps wrongfully so) like Red Kelly.

I meant of those four, that is the one that means the least. I think the other three benchmarks are more important to deciding to or not to retire a number. Sorry, for the confusion.

[LeftWinger 4,949]

He'll be retired there eventually, Cup or not. He's one of the top 5 or so players in franchise history, and I have to think that a lot of the old grudges have melted away, especially with Dollar Bill dead.

My final word on this: Lidstrom and Osgood yes, Datsyuk and Zetterberg maybe if they keep it up, everyone else no.

Draper. He's played over 1000 games for the Wings. Theres no denying his importance to this team both past and present.

[Kwame_Kilpatrick 0]

Yes it will.

Then why didn't the Wings win in '95 or '96? Conversely, Fedorov wins no Cups without the Wings.....

you can say the same thing about shanny and osgood... and yet some people think osgood should be retired. the fact is yzerman could not win without fedorov either, and feddy hasnt exactly played for any good teams since he left (except washington this year but he is now a role player). still 950 points is by far the best of the monder era beside yzerman for us that is a lot of points. in comparison sid abel and ted lindsay didnt even hit 800 points, and terry sawchuck helped out arch rival toronto win a few cups.

and anyone who says he didnt play for us for a long time, he only stayed on board for about ten years in an era where a star can bolt pretty much anywhere he wants. he was a luxury player but he was also skilled and was the best player whenever he played for us

[DmitrifromRussia 0]

I just imaging the applauding and booing at the same time when the #91 jersey will be raising. It makes me smile. Feds will be forever the priceless and the hateful player for the RW fans. The one side of the Joe will be booing him and the other will be giving him a standing ovation. This controversy will never end.

[Hockeytown_Ryan 119]

That doesn't even make sense. What's the point? And really, don't fans deserve to know?

http://www.detroithockey.net/history/retired.php

is retired just not honored

[egroen 384]

http://www.detroithockey.net/history/retired.php

is retired just not honored

It's the opposite - honored, but un-retired:

Fine print:

Larry Aurie's #6 was retired by former Red Wings owner James Norris following the 1938-39 season. Current owner Mike Ilitch refuses to recognize this, going as far as to have it unlisted as a retired number in the 2000-01 NHL Guide and Record Book. Despite this, the number is kept out of circulation.

Edited April 28, 2009 by egroen

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Dino has one of the weakest resumes of all the guys up for the HoF right now. It is more than his on/off-ice altercations that is keeping him from it. 600 goals loses a lot of its luster when you put them into the context of the 80s and consider Dino never even came close to the league leaders in goals in a single season. Longevity should be a part of the equation, but peak performance is an equal if not more heavily-weighted factor, and dino comes up woefully short in that department.

Bringing Kris Draper (or Maltby/McCarty) opens up the rafters to a number of players from the Red Wings past, many of whom have more accolades than Draper.

As I have brought up before - Ted Lindsay left this organization in about the worst possible way you can imagine. If the Wings and he could patch things up, surely they can with Fedorov - whom by many accounts has already bridged many of those divisions - enough that the Red Wings actually considered trading for him from Columbus, which would have been at a large premium considering Columbus is in the division.

If Fedorov's number is retired, I certainly agree it will not be any time soon.

How do you figure any of this?

First, regarding Dino

608 goals 16th ALL TIME. Only 17 players have ever accomplished that feat.

1200 points 45 ALL TIME. Only 45 players have ever reached 1200

Mike Gartner had an impressive 708 goals but what else did he do? He doesn't have the personal accolades either. So essentially Gartner got into the HHOF by scoring 700+ goals and by having longevity. But Dino can't get in because he only amassed 600+ goals and had longevity. I guess 600 goals is something to scoff at these days.

Neither of those guys rocked the world with personal accolades. 1 guy is in and 1 isn't. I believe all the other 600 goal guys are in already and Shanahan and Sakic will be.

It's just your opinion but I disagree. Dino has and continues to be black-balled from the HOF because of his on "issues".

As for Draper. It amazes me how people first and foremost believe you have to be a superstar to "define" the organization. Well if Kris Draper hasn't been defining what it means to be a Red Wing for the past 15 years then I say shame on them for calling themselves Red Wings fans.

Look, I am not Kris Draper slappy by any stretch of the imagination. But I believe in honor and loyalty and sacrificing for your team, teammates, organization and community. That's all Kris Draper has done during his career.

As for "opening up the rafters" by mentioning Draper.... How so?

Clearly, of anybody who ever played on the Grind Line, Draper was the best, most versatile and most used player. McCarty was a fighter who scored a couple of big playoff goals and beat up Claude Lemieux. All while having alcohol problems and spending time with Calgary. You telling me he amounts to Draper?

Maltby has the tenure and the loyalty and sacrifice thing going for him. IMO he's been a lifelong Wing. That means alot to me. But his value still pales in comparison to Draper's.

So who else would this be opening up the rafters to? How many guys we talking about here? Give me a list of the 1000+ games in a Red Wings sweater and 15+ seasons as a Wing as well as ending your career as a Wing. I want to see how much space I need to open the rafters up to.

Edited April 28, 2009 by GordieSid&Ted

[wingslionstigers 12]

Lidstrom is the only player that will have his jersey retired for along time. Osgood? Yeah right man its for the best of the best. Does Osgoods name compare to Steve Yzerman, Nick Lidstrom? No.

[wingslionstigers 12]

Whats with you guys thinking that every player that plays for the Red Wings for so many years should be retired.

Not happening. Just because you play for a team for 12-15 years doesn't make you worthy of getting your jersey retired. This is the Red Wings.

[egroen 384]

How do you figure any of this?

First, regarding Dino

608 goals 16th ALL TIME. Only 17 players have ever accomplished that feat.

1200 points 45 ALL TIME. Only 45 players have ever reached 1200

Mike Gartner had an impressive 708 goals but what else did he do? He doesn't have the personal accolades either. So essentially Gartner got into the HHOF by scoring 700+ goals and by having longevity. But Dino can't get in because he only amassed 600+ goals and had longevity. I guess 600 goals is something to scoff at these days.

Neither of those guys rocked the world with personal accolades. 1 guy is in and 1 isn't. I believe all the other 600 goal guys are in already and Shanahan and Sakic will be.

It's just your opinion but I disagree. Dino has and continues to be black-balled from the HOF because of his on "issues".

I do not doubt those "issues" have a bearing, but "issues" have not kept others from getting in. I am not contesting Dino had an excellent career (though no Cup, which will almost always keep a marginal guy out) and compiled some great stats - but that is only one part of the equation. Ciccarelli was never a league leader at his position and was never even a 2nd team all star. In goals, he only cracked the top 10 twice in his entire career.

But you are right, I have a feeling w/o the personal issues, Dino might be in -- the problem is he was not good enough to overlook them, like many were.

Many are not too happy with Gartner being in, but it is easy to make a case for him over Dino (more goals in his career and top 10 in goals five times vs. Dino's 2). Gartner at least made Canadian Cup teams - never Dino.

Look at the guys not in yet, and tell me who Ciccarelli should be ahead of:

Steve Yzerman

Brett Hull

Luke Robitaille

Brian Leetch

Mark Howe

Adam Oates

Sergei Makarov

Doug Gilmour

JC Tremblay

Rick Middleton

Tom Barrasso

Ron Hextall

Rogatien Vachon

John Vanbiesbrouck

Mike Vernon

Theoren Fleury

Andy Moog

Alexander Mogilny

Paul Henderson

Pete Mahovlich

Pavel Bure

Dave Andreychuk

Vincent Damphousse

Mike Richter

Phil Housely

Pat Verbeek

Rick Martin

Ken Hodge

Doug Wilson

Next year he'll have these guys to contend with as well:

Petr Bondra

Sean Burke

Eric Lindros

Scott Mellanby

Joe Nieuwendyk

Mike Ricci

Pierre Turgeon

Sure, you can argue he should be ahead of quite a few of those guys, but I bet even you will admit he is nowhere near the top.

As for Draper. It amazes me how people first and foremost believe you have to be a superstar to "define" the organization. Well if Kris Draper hasn't been defining what it means to be a Red Wing for the past 15 years then I say shame on them for calling themselves Red Wings fans.

Look, I am not Kris Draper slappy by any stretch of the imagination. But I believe in honor and loyalty and sacrificing for your team, teammates, organization and community. That's all Kris Draper has done during his career.

As for "opening up the rafters" by mentioning Draper.... How so?

Clearly, of anybody who ever played on the Grind Line, Draper was the best, most versatile and most used player. McCarty was a fighter who scored a couple of big playoff goals and beat up Claude Lemieux. All while having alcohol problems and spending time with Calgary. You telling me he amounts to Draper?

Maltby has the tenure and the loyalty and sacrifice thing going for him. IMO he's been a lifelong Wing. That means alot to me. But his value still pales in comparison to Draper's.

So who else would this be opening up the rafters to? How many guys we talking about here? Give me a list of the 1000+ games in a Red Wings sweater and 15+ seasons as a Wing as well as ending your career as a Wing. I want to see how much space I need to open the rafters up to.

Draper deserves to be an Honored Red Wing Alumni and inducted into the Red Wings Hall of Fame. I think that is quite an honor.

Take a good look at a lot of these guys, as many of them deserve to go up before Draper would:

http://www.redwingalumni.com/hallOfFameRedWings.html

Edited April 28, 2009 by egroen

[egroen 384]

So who else would this be opening up the rafters to? How many guys we talking about here? Give me a list of the 1000+ games in a Red Wings sweater and 15+ seasons as a Wing as well as ending your career as a Wing. I want to see how much space I need to open the rafters up to.

From who is already in, I would say it is more important to start your career as a Red Wing than it is to finish your career as a Red Wing. Draper fails in that, and he'll also never make the Hockey Hall of Fame. Regardless, I don't think there should be any iron-clad "rules", but they can serve as a guideline.

I'll start it out --

Some guys that definitely deserve to have their jerseys retired before Draper:

Red Kelly

Larry Aurie

Ebbie Goodfellow

Syd Howe

Jack Stewart

Marcel Pronovost

Marty Pavelich

Norm Ullman

Marty Barry

Sergei Fedorov

Chris Osgood

Edited April 28, 2009 by egroen

[Hockeytown_Ryan 119]

It's the opposite - honored, but un-retired:

Fine print:

AHH HAA