1452 replies to this topic

[mad dingo]

So far the league is batting .500 with teams returning to cities that were unable to support their team the first time around. Minnesota is thriving, Atlanta was a bust. We'll just have to wait and see what happens in Winnipeg.


Thanks for adding to the conversation. Why do you think this post is clueless?

Winnipeg didnt lose the team because lack of fan support. Many factors contributed to the team moving. Among them.
- Old crappy arena with no immediate possibility of a new one.
- No local owner ready to buy team
- Bettmans boner for Sunbelt teams. He did not try to save team.
- Lonnie was at about $0.70.

To say that we lost our team because of lack of fan support is a clueless statement.

[grwingfan]

Winnipeg didnt lose the team because lack of fan support. Many factors contributed to the team moving. Among them.
- Old crappy arena with no immediate possibility of a new one.
- No local owner ready to buy team
- Bettmans boner for Sunbelt teams. He did not try to save team.
- Lonnie was at about $0.70.

To say that we lost our team because of lack of fan support is a clueless statement.

This is very true.

[CaliWingsNut]

Winnipeg didnt lose the team because lack of fan support. Many factors contributed to the team moving. Among them.
- Old crappy arena with no immediate possibility of a new one.
- No local owner ready to buy team
- Bettmans boner for Sunbelt teams. He did not try to save team.
- Lonnie was at about $0.70.

To say that we lost our team because of lack of fan support is a clueless statement.

It's about as clueless as blaming Bettman for Jerry Moyes' careless management and the real estate crash.

[evilmrt]

It's about as clueless as blaming Bettman for Jerry Moyes' careless management and the real estate crash.

Indeed! Anyone who says Winnipeg lost their team due to the fans not supporting them has no idea, and honestly wasn't watching that last series in 96 when the Wings swept them. I remember being impressed at the fans' "White-Out" then, which was pathetically brought back to the Coyotes last season....when the Wings eliminated the franchise again. THAT DIDN'T WORK!

Its more due to economic factors that have now changed, both external and league-internal. Those have been pointed out several times so I won't even bother. The present economic realities for the Coyotes, however, are pretty indefensible...and thats where you can blame Bettman for dragging this out for so long.

Edited by evilmrt, 03 June 2011 - 12:37 PM.

[CaliWingsNut]

Indeed! Anyone who says Winnipeg lost their team due to the fans not supporting them has no idea, and honestly wasn't watching that last series in 96 when the Wings swept them. I remember being impressed at the fans' "White-Out" then, which was pathetically brought back to the Coyotes last season....when the Wings eliminated the franchise again. THAT DIDN'T WORK!

Its more due to economic factors that have now changed, both external and league-internal. Those have been pointed out several times so I won't even bother. The present economic realities for the Coyotes, however, are pretty indefensible...and thats where you can blame Bettman for dragging this out for so long.

How so?
because Glendale didn't approve of Ice edge's proposals? because goldwater killed Hulsizer's bond proposal? because the NHL (who's keeping the team alive) has created a team cap and haven't heavily promoted them?

[vladdy16]

Winnipeg didnt lose the team because lack of fan support. Many factors contributed to the team moving. Among them.
- Old crappy arena with no immediate possibility of a new one.
- No local owner ready to buy team
- Bettmans boner for Sunbelt teams. He did not try to save team.
- Lonnie was at about $0.70.

To say that we lost our team because of lack of fan support is a clueless statement.

See, that wasn't so hard, was it?

[cusimano_brothers]

Bettman and Daly, chanting "One more season, one more season, ..."

[mad dingo]

See, that wasn't so hard, was it?

Got lazy

[evilmrt]

How so?
because Glendale didn't approve of Ice edge's proposals? because goldwater killed Hulsizer's bond proposal? because the NHL (who's keeping the team alive) has created a team cap and haven't heavily promoted them?

And the arena problems. Its far from the city center and quite far from the more-populated east side of the metro area...making it one long drive from Mesa/Gilbert/Chandler, etc. Not to mention "Jobing.com Arena" is in the middle of a massive empty property, with nothing around it of any interest.

Not to mention the Phoenix economy in general...which is not very robust at all, and very real-estate based...leading to big booms in good times and huge busts in bad times. Phoenix has a pathetic corporate presence for a city of this size. Not the best place in the world to fight tooth-and-nail to keep a team in a city where the locals couldn't care less about them.

[Opie]

Hey but adding Labarbera to the roster should really get the city excited about hockey again, oh wait, no it shouldn't.

Sorry nothing to see here!

[cusimano_brothers]

From TSN:

According to Forbes magazine, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman has told Balsillie that he will get an NHL team in the future if he does not "create any more spectacles or bad publicity for the league".
...

Has Bettman come to his senses?

[vladdy16]

Balsillie strikes me as pond scum; not sure he'll get past the BoG unless they're really, really tired of losing money to the Yotes and don't care how they get it.

[Doc Holliday]

Balsillie strikes me as pond scum; not sure he'll get past the BoG unless they're really, really tired of losing money to the Yotes and don't care how they get it.

Bingo. It isn't just about money. When the potential buyer acts the way Balsillie did/does, there is a huge problem.

[evilmrt]

From TSN:



Has Bettman come to his senses?

I love this from the comments section under the article:

Translation - Bettman: please God come back and buy the Coyotes, i was wrong, I'm sorry, but every other team in the NHL will get the opportunity to move their team to Hamilton before you (which is fair) if they want to pay the fee.

JB: I'm not so sure anymore, i want a good market and you weren't very nice to me.

GB: you can have Quebec City but that's the best I can do.

JB: i want it in Southern Ontario.

GB: Not gonna happen.

JB: call me again in a few years when you've lost another $100 million in Phoenix.

GB: if you don't buy the team i will lose my job.

JB: should make things easier for me

[13GoWings40]

So would he still insist on moving the team to Hamilton or would he be open to other relocation possibilities? I know he wants to move any team he buys, but I would like them to stay out west so we can move east. KC or Seattle anyone?

[eva unit zero]

So far the league is batting .500 with teams returning to cities that were unable to support their team the first time around. Minnesota is thriving, Atlanta was a bust. We'll just have to wait and see what happens in Winnipeg.


Thanks for adding to the conversation. Why do you think this post is clueless?

San Jose is doing wonderful (effectively the same market as the Oakland Seals)
The Avalanche are doing well (Colorado Rockies)
The 'new' Ottawa Senators are on the better side of it.
The Penguins have been doing well more often than not. (Pittsburgh Pirates)
The Blues have been a successful franchise (St. Louis Eagles)
The Nordiques failed. (Quebec Bulldogs)

So we're really looking at 75% success on the second time around.

Winnipeg didnt lose the team because lack of fan support. Many factors contributed to the team moving. Among them.
- Old crappy arena with no immediate possibility of a new one.
- No local owner ready to buy team
- Bettmans boner for Sunbelt teams. He did not try to save team.
- Lonnie was at about $0.70.

To say that we lost our team because of lack of fan support is a clueless statement.

I've cited the attendance numbers repeatedly. Winnipeg's attendance was terrible; Phoenix has not gotten great attendance the past two seasons, but has gotten far better attendance historically than Winnipeg. The top ten years for attendance in franchise history were all in Phoenix. Seven of them were 15k+, while the best Winnipeg ever hosted was 13,550, which was more than 2k below capacity.

As for "Bettman's boner" as you put it. During the expansion process, potential owners apply to own an NHL franchise and in what location, arena, etc. The NHL Board of Governors then approves all of that stuff. IIRC, there weren't even any applications for Canadian expansion teams. As for relocation, it works like this: relocating a franchise requires the owner or potential owner to obtain the approval of the BoG. The Jets were sold to new owners, who then chose to relocate the franchise. It's not a matter of Gary Bettman saying "Ok, let's move this team here now." It doesn't work like that. Ownership transfer also must be approved; see the Ballsillie thing. Although Gary Bettman and the BoG could have simply allowed Balsillie to purchase the Yotes and move them to Hamilton, and simply stated that the former Coyotes were no longer part of the NHL, and replaced them with an expansion team which was named the Winnipeg Jets, and as the Coyotes were no longer an NHL club, was allowed to claim the NHL rights of a certain number of their players (Shane Doan being mandatory) before beginning an expansion draft process.

[eva unit zero]

So would he still insist on moving the team to Hamilton or would he be open to other relocation possibilities? I know he wants to move any team he buys, but I would like them to stay out west so we can move east. KC or Seattle anyone?

My top five cities for expansion/relocation:

1. Seattle
2. Quebec
3. Houston
4. Madison/Milwaukee
5. Las Vegas

[Hiei]

My top five cities for expansion/relocation:

1. Seattle
2. Quebec
3. Houston
4. Madison/Milwaukee
5. Las Vegas

Here's my issues with those:

1. KeyArena was vacated since the Sonics couldn't get renovations or a new arena, and sold to OKC. KeyArena currently operates on its own budget without public funds, so that will likely continue until they aren't making a profit anymore.

2. Arena under construction, and Quebecor is on the bandwagon, but no traction as far as relocation yet. Phoenix will drag for another year, and the Islanders under Wang will be playing out the lease at the Mausoleum until 2015. After that, unknown.

3. The 4th Largest city in the US only gained 6,326 per game this year at the Toyota Center (same as the Rockets, 17,800 capacity for hockey) and a paltry 5,623 per playoff game (and they lost in the finals!)

4. Milwaukee before Madison, since Madison is a college town. Who would be the owner? AHL puts the 17,845 seat Bradley Center with 5,796 season, 3,563 Playoffs, not a good litmus. Plus, what kind of corporate support would there be?

5. Jerry Bruckheimer has talked before about moving a team to vegas, since he has money and loves hockey. Arena? Thomas and Mack center is pretty big, but is on the campus of UNLV.


There WAS a consortium out of Tulsa, OK that was thinking about getting the Penguins a couple years ago, dunno if that could flare up again. Portland OR has been tossed about, but that all depends on Paul Allen since he owns the Rose Garden.

[evilmrt]

My top five cities for expansion/relocation:

1. Seattle
2. Quebec
3. Houston
4. Madison/Milwaukee
5. Las Vegas

Hey Eva, how about the low SCF tv ratings this year in both Seattle and Milwaukee? It is possible that everyone in Seattle is watching CBC (apparently its carried on cable there) instead of NBC...I have no idea...but those two places interest me in these scenarios.

Also, some numbers on the growth of youth hockey in non-NHL states:

http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/2011/06/03/raw-numbers-hockeys-growth-in-non-nhl-states-1990-2010/

State: Washington
1990-91: 2,389
2009-10: 7,615
Growth: 249.8%

State: Wisconsin
1990-91: 5,065
2009-10: 17,697
Growth: 249.4%

Pretty damn good numbers for Wisconsin, respectable numbers for Washington (it helps to have 4 WHL teams)...but take a look at Oregon, another place often mentioned in these relocation discussions:

State: Oregon
1990-91: 738
2009-10: 804
Growth: 8.9%

[13GoWings40]

Pretty damn good numbers for Wisconsin, respectable numbers for Washington (it helps to have 4 WHL teams)...but take a look at Oregon, another place often mentioned in these relocation discussions:

I've never really thought about Wisconsin, based on those numbers I think it could work. The only problem I can see is that it might be hard to find many corporate sponsors in either of the cities mentioned, especially Madison.

Edited by 13GoWings40, 10 June 2011 - 01:49 PM.