Pens Exposed?

[TheCapt19 0]

Although I haven't watched a lot of Pens hockey this year (even though I have to contantly hear about it living 2 hrs from sPittsburgh), it seems that when Bylsma rolls lines 3 and 4 he's throwing Crosby and Malkin out there. I recently heard him bragging about how, "not every team has a 3rd or 4th line with Malkin and Crosby..." Now until now, they haven't played a complete team like us. If we have some stars back and healthy, will the completeness of the Wings finally force them to keep Malkin and Crosby on top lines? I don't think they can double shift them constantly against the level that our 3rd and 4th lines play. Thoughts?

[tommingthepuck96 1]

Nothing new, they dress an extra D man (7), while double shifting malkin or crosby on that fourth line, Also both malkin and crosby play the full 2 minutes on the power play..

[Psychlone 0]

Although I haven't watched a lot of Pens hockey this year (even though I have to contantly hear about it living 2 hrs from sPittsburgh), it seems that when Bylsma rolls lines 3 and 4 he's throwing Crosby and Malkin out there. I recently heard him bragging about how, "not every team has a 3rd or 4th line with Malkin and Crosby..." Now until now, they haven't played a complete team like us. If we have some stars back and healthy, will the completeness of the Wings finally force them to keep Malkin and Crosby on top lines? I don't think they can double shift them constantly against the level that our 3rd and 4th lines play. Thoughts?

I think it's definitely possible and to be honest has me a little worried, moreso with Malkin then Crosby though just because he did seem to run out of gas last year before the finals. One thing Bylsma has shown though so far is the ability to adjust and make changes when called for so I trust that if you are right, the double shifting of the two stars will come to an end before any major damage is done.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Psychlone

[theman19 47]

What this says to me is that by game three they're both going to be worn out. We absoutly have the depth to people cover them every time they step on the ice. If he wants to put those two on the third line against guys like flip and cleary and also against dats and Z be my guess.

Last year we frustrated crosby and domninated malkin, we're going to do the same this series. If lids and pavel are back they're going to be pulling out their hair by game 5.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Haha I love it. "Crosby and Malkin are so dominant offensively. 28 points a piece. How do they do it?"

Explanation: Crosby gets 5:48 per night on the PP, and just 11 second on the PK; Malkin gets 6 minutes per night on the PP, and just 5 seconds a night on the PK.

How did I not know that? Here I am thinking Crosby and Malkin are going nuts offensively, yet here they are seeing 2x as much ice time on the PP as any of our forwards.

[TheCapt19 0]

I think the most telling stat in hockey is the +/-. That said, here' show it breaks down...

Overall

DET = +21

PIT = +12

Home

DET = +14

PIT = +4

Away

DET = +7

PIT = +8

If you look further, you'll see that Detroit only has one player in the - (Malts). sPittsburgh on the other hand has 8 in the - including Staal. The game's not played on paper, but it sure helps ease the mind.

[betterREDthandead 58]

What this says to me is that by game three they're both going to be worn out. We absoutly have the depth to people cover them every time they step on the ice. If he wants to put those two on the third line against guys like flip and cleary and also against dats and Z be my guess.

Why would they all of a sudden wear out now? They've been double-shifted for a long time now - if they couldn't handle it, they wouldn't be doing it.

Plus it works both ways. Maybe Crosby and Malkin are a little bit more tired - and I stress a little bit because I think it's more like a 1.5 shifting where they take turns on the fourth line - but the seventh defenseman means their blue line is that much fresher. Especially as compared to ours, when we're rolling four defensemen all game on Wednesday.

This is no advantage at all for us, really.

[zetterbergfan 23]

This means they are going to be putting a 7th defenseman on the ice against Helm's line? Or any other line? If I were the Pens I would be way more worried about being scored on than scoring more by double shifting Crosby and Malkin. They are not prepared for this kind of constant attack.

[theman19 47]

Why would they all of a sudden wear out now? They've been double-shifted for a long time now - if they couldn't handle it, they wouldn't be doing it.

Plus it works both ways. Maybe Crosby and Malkin are a little bit more tired - and I stress a little bit because I think it's more like a 1.5 shifting where they take turns on the fourth line - but the seventh defenseman means their blue line is that much fresher. Especially as compared to ours, when we're rolling four defensemen all game on Wednesday.

This is no advantage at all for us, really.

I'll respectfully disagree as the pens havn't faced a D like ours the entire time they've played this playoffs. And when i mean D i mean forward D and Defensmen D. They can pull that kinda stuff against a team with suspect depth like Wash, Carolina but when they're out there double shifted against our 3rd and fourth lines they'll play guys who can creat scoring chances every shift. This isn't goign to be them skating through pylons like it was last series for them.

It's just a fact, the more players play the more tired they are. Even if they've handled it so far, doesn't mean playing our style of hockey is goign to make it easy for them. Carolina played there style, loose D, shootout the lights hockey, that's not us, and that's the key.

Edited May 28, 2009 by theman19

[Jake Ryan 1]

I heard someone say "Nightmare on Helm Street" a few weeks back. That's exactly what's going to happen to Crosby. The Penguins would be wise to keep Crosby off the ice when Helmer is out there, because Helm will be looking to make an impression.

[toby91_ca 620]

Haha I love it. "Crosby and Malkin are so dominant offensively. 28 points a piece. How do they do it?"

Explanation: Crosby gets 5:48 per night on the PP, and just 11 second on the PK; Malkin gets 6 minutes per night on the PP, and just 5 seconds a night on the PK.

How did I not know that? Here I am thinking Crosby and Malkin are going nuts offensively, yet here they are seeing 2x as much ice time on the PP as any of our forwards.

Crosby has 19 ESP.

[TCbrizz 2]

Why would they all of a sudden wear out now? They've been double-shifted for a long time now - if they couldn't handle it, they wouldn't be doing it.

Plus it works both ways. Maybe Crosby and Malkin are a little bit more tired - and I stress a little bit because I think it's more like a 1.5 shifting where they take turns on the fourth line - but the seventh defenseman means their blue line is that much fresher. Especially as compared to ours, when we're rolling four defensemen all game on Wednesday.

This is no advantage at all for us, really.

Because the fourth lines they see in the east would never see the ice in Detroit. Our 3rd/4th lines = 2nd lines on most of the teams Pittsburgh has played...and rolling Crosby/Malkin/Satan out there as your "fourth" line is going to end up getting them burned in the 3rd period. The primary difference is they'll HAVE to play defense as well as offense against us at all times...something neither really excels at. look at the stat above...they NEVER play on the pk! Why? Because they can't!! Look at who plays on ours...Zetterberg, Dats, Hossa, etc. Completely different philosophies...and they are going to relearn real quick that they don't get to just skate up and down the ice all night....they will end up on their ass more in the first four games of this series than they have in the entire playoffs so far.

[Armyrulez 0]

Since the Pens started dressing 7 dmen because of Gonchar's injury in the Caps series, Crosby and Malkin's ice time has dropped from about 26 minutes a game to about 21-22 minutes a game. It's a misnomer that they are "double shifting" They are not staying out when the 2 others (Adams and Satan) are coming out to flank the 4th line, it has been pretty consistent that Staal and Talbot have also skated on the line as well. The Pens are simply a more balanced team dressing 11+7 rather than 12+6, and their record is 6-1 with 7 dmen in the lineup.

[egroen 384]

Getzlaf was visibly winded by Game 4 in the series with Detroit.

The Wings' puck possession style can really run a team down, trying to play catchup -- and it is also why you will never see a Wings forward playing much more than 20 minutes a game. Quick, short shifts.

Edited May 28, 2009 by egroen

[Casey 145]

I'll respectfully disagree as the pens havn't faced a D like ours the entire time they've played this playoffs. And when i mean D i mean forward D and Defensmen D. They can pull that kinda stuff against a team with suspect depth like Wash, Carolina but when they're out there double shifted against our 3rd and fourth lines they'll play guys who can creat scoring chances every shift. This isn't goign to be them skating through pylons like it was last series for them.

It's just a fact, the more players play the more tired they are. Even if they've handled it so far, doesn't mean playing our style of hockey is goign to make it easy for them. Carolina played there style, loose D, shootout the lights hockey, that's not us, and that's the key.

It's true.

2 Selke winners in Draper and Datsyuk, a Selke finalist in Zetterberg, it may well prove too much.

When the defense can score (Lids, Rafi, Stuart, even Kronwall on occasion), and the forwards can play D, it spells trouble for a largely offense-minded team like Pittsburgh.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Although I haven't watched a lot of Pens hockey this year (even though I have to contantly hear about it living 2 hrs from sPittsburgh), it seems that when Bylsma rolls lines 3 and 4 he's throwing Crosby and Malkin out there. I recently heard him bragging about how, "not every team has a 3rd or 4th line with Malkin and Crosby..." Now until now, they haven't played a complete team like us. If we have some stars back and healthy, will the completeness of the Wings finally force them to keep Malkin and Crosby on top lines? I don't think they can double shift them constantly against the level that our 3rd and 4th lines play. Thoughts?

Coaches have been doing that with players like Crosby and Malkin for years. Ovechkin, Greene, Kovelchuk, Lecalvier, all those guys get the same treatment. When you don't have to work in the defensive zone you're able to conserve energy and take longer, more frequent shifts. Datsyuk, for example, would never play a 26 minute game on a regular basis- he'd be too exhausted from having to work constantly.

Look at what happened to Getzlaf- when he had to play shifts like Crosby and Malkin while playing a 2-way game he ended up being completely used up after 8 playoff games. It's too exhausting to have to skate end to end and fight for pucks nearly half the game without loafing around in the defensive zone like the other guys do. That's why, in the current NHL, you never see guys put up 120 points AND play a strong defensive game.

[Armyrulez 0]

Malkin 16 Even Strength Points, 12 PPP +3

Crosby 19 Even Strength Points, 9 PPP +12

they do play defense, contrary to popular belief and they are not living off of the PP

[Jake Ryan 1]

Malkin 16 Even Strength Points, 12 PPP +3

Crosby 19 Even Strength Points, 9 PPP +12

they do play defense, contrary to popular belief and they are not living off of the PP

They don't play enough defense, obviously, and I don't care what they live off.

[Armyrulez 0]

They don't play enough defense, obviously, and I don't care what they live off.

I guess we shall see.

[Marty Midnight 0]

The Pens are simply a more balanced team dressing 11+7 rather than 12+6, and their record is 6-1 with 7 dmen in the lineup.

That is true. The D has played better as a group during that time as well.

In the end it just may be that Boucher brings more to the ice than Dupuis does.

[Jake Ryan 1]

I guess we shall see.

Edited: I guess we shall see AGAIN.

[Datsyerberger 279]

Malkin 16 Even Strength Points, 12 PPP +3

Crosby 19 Even Strength Points, 9 PPP +12

they do play defense, contrary to popular belief and they are not living off of the PP

That's really low +/- for how many ES points they have, particularly Malkin

Here's the Wings high minute forwards, for comparison:

Zetterberg: 13 ES points, 10 +/-

Cleary: 16 ES points (lol hi Malkin), 14 +/-

Franzen: 13 ES points, 9 +/-

Filppula: 11 ES points, 9 +/-

Hossa: 7 ES points, 5 +/-

Datsyuk: 4 ES points, 4 +/-

Do you see anything about the differential in ES points in +/-? Maybe the fact that it's much, much lower than the Wings players?

What were you saying about defense, again? Here's a Pens forward that plays defense: Guerin, 13 ES points, 11 +/-. That's a well rounded veteran. But it ain't Crosby or Malkin, that's for sure. Is it really so hard for Pens fans to admit that?

Everyone on our bottom lines (and Holmstrom), except Maltby, has 1 or 2 ESGA differnetial... except Draper and Leino, who have 0, and Maltby, who has 3.

And Dan Cleary (who gets virtually no PP time and substantially more PK time) is scoring with Malkin at even strength with less even strength minutes.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Datsyerberger

[Idoit40fans 0]

Crosby, Malkin, and Staal rotate at the 4th line center position. Thats what? an extra 2 minutes a game...maybe?

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Malkin 16 Even Strength Points, 12 PPP +3

Crosby 19 Even Strength Points, 9 PPP +12

they do play defense, contrary to popular belief and they are not living off of the PP

You shouldn't misrepresent the facts-- now I'm going to have to go and use some stats on ya.

Sorry, I didn't want to have to do this

Sidney Crosby:

Total TOI/G = 21:42 (9th)

PP TOI/G = 5:48 (3rd)

PK TOI/G = 0:11 (122nd) (note that Ovechkin, who you guys say doesn't play defense is 124th on that list with 0:10)

PP TOI = 98:40 (17 Game Total)

PK TOI = 3:13 (17 Game Total)

PP/PK = 30.7

Evgeni Malkin:

Total TOI/G = 21:17 (12th)

PP TOI/G = 5:59 (2nd)

PK TOI/G = 0:05 (132nd)

PP TOI = 101:58 (17 Game Total)

PK TOI = 1:33 (17 Game Total)

PP/PK = 65.8

Henrik Zetterberg:

Total TOI/G = 22:07 (6th)

PP TOI/G = 3:24 (34th)

PK TOI/G = 2:14 (40th) (after the 15th guy the TOI drops below 3 mins, so the difference is pretty small in that gap)

PP TOI = 54:24 (16 Game Total)

PK TOI = 35:50 (16 Game Total)

PP/PK = 1.5

Yeah, so you're totally right, your boys are super balanced.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Aw, what the hell, I got off work early today.

Let's take Franzen and normalize his points and time on ice to compare him fairly with Crosby and Malkin, ok?

Sidney Crosby:

Even TOI = 16,026 sec

Even Pts= 9 G, 10 A

Even Pts/TOI = 5.6159x10^-4 G/sec , 6.2399x10^-4 A/s

PP TOI = 5,920 sec

PP Pts = 5 G, 4 A

PP Pts/TOI = 8.4459x10^-4 G/sec , 6.7568x10^-4 A/s

PK TOI = 193 sec

PK Pts = 0 G, 0 A

Totals= 14 G, 14 A, 28 pts

Evgeni Malkin:

Even TOI = 15,498 sec

Even Pts = 7 G, 9 A

Even Pts/TOI = 4.5167x10^-4 G/sec , 5.8072x10^-4 A/sec

PP TOI = 6,118 sec

PP Pts = 5 G, 7 A

PP Pts/TOI = 8.1726x10^-4 G/sec , 1.144x10^-3 A/sec

PK TOI = 93 sec

PK Pts = 0 G, 0 A

Totals= 12 G, 16 A, 28 pts

Johan Franzen:

Even TOI = 15,180 sec

Even Pts = 7 G, 6 A

Even Pts/TOI = 4.6113x10^-4 G/sec , 3.9526x10^-4 A/sec

PP TOI = 3,355 sec

PP Pts = 3 G, 3 A

PP Pts/TOI = 8.9419x10^-4 G/sec , 8.9419x10^-4 A/sec

PK TOI = 450 sec

PK Pts = 0 G, 0 A

Totals= 10 G, 9 A, 19 pts

Franzen Playing Crosby's Mins:

Points: 13 G, 11 A, 24 pts

Franzen Playing Malkin's Mins:

Points: 13 G, 11 A, 24 pts

So if Franzen got Malkin or Crosby's mins he'd have 24 pts. It's not as impressive as their 28 pts, but it's a 5 point difference over Franzen's current totals.

So for the guys here who say the minutes played aren't significant, well if you take a guy like Franzen and give him the extra PP time his totals jump by 26%. Is that realistic? Of course this stuff isn't so simple in real life, but the fact remains that minutes played have a definite effect on your point totals- especially PP time. In Detroit we see that with guys like Filppula who normally don't get PP time. Someone gets injured and suddenly Filppula's on the PP and producing points... Just look at Lebda- he's not a great d-man, but put him on the PP in Lidstrom's absence and he suddenly has more than 12 pts a year.