the top 50 professional hockey players in the world today!

[Interupt 0]

I'd like to hear a compelling argument how Lidstrom was not the best defenseman in the league this year. Chara and Green showed their stripes in the playoffs, and Lidstrom was a better defenseman even with a leaky ball sack.

The media anointed Chara with the Norris in November, and they never faltered from it, despite Lidstrom outplaying him from that point on and finishing with more points as well as a better +/- in front of the worst goaltender in the regular season while Chara was playing in front of the Vezina winner.

The media "Annoited" Lidstrom the best defenseman in the league for a decade.

Chara plays the same game but is much more physical, its the same story with Pronger.

Did you really expect Lidstrom to keep winning the Norris until he retired due to boredom? Hes slowed a step or two in the last couple years. He gets beat much more consistently and the "Off games" that were unheard of a couple seasons ago, happen more and more frequently, including in the playoffs.

Take off the homer glasses and realize that there are teams in this league not located in Detroit. If you listened to the majority of this board, they'd lead you to believe that Lidstrom should have won the Hart and Norris every year since 99. Nothing more than hype and Ken Daniels.

Lidstrom is a great player, one of the top defenseman in the league but hes not an MVP candidate and this team will survive just fine without him.

[dat's sick 1,002]

Getzlaf

Datsyuk

Iginla

Brodeur

Crosby

Ovechkin

Malkin

Luongo

Chara

Kovalchuk

The same argument you make for Lids not being in the top 10, I'd make about Brodeur. I think he's been on the decline for a couple of years, and although he's without a doubt one of the best goalies to ever play, I don't think he's top 3 in the league right now. Maybe it's just his complete choking in the playoffs this year that make me say that, but I'd say Lundqvist, Luongo and Backstrom are all better than Marty right now.

Having Chara in the top 10 over Lids is insane imo. I know Chara won the Norris this year, but looking at both statistics and actual play out there on the ice for most of the season, Lids is still the best defenseman in the league. Chara had a Vezina winner behind him, and still had worse +/- than Lids who had the worst starting goalie in the league behind him. That's gotta count for something.

I agree that maybe Z isn't a top 10 player in the league. Top 10 forward? Hell yes. But not quite up there when you take goalies and d-men into account. Lids is definitely up there STILL.

[albo23 10]

Here is list that better represents to top 50 players in the world right now.

1. Nicklas Lidstrom, D

2. Henrik Zetterberg, F

3. Alexander Ovechkin, F

4. Pavel Datsyuk, F

5. Evgeni Malkin, F

6. Martin Brodeur, G

7. Sidney Crosby, F

8. Duncan Keith, D

9. Zdeno Chara, D

10. Nicklas Backstrom. G

11. Zach Parise, F

12. Mike Richards, F

13. Ryan Getzlaf, F

14. Scott Niedermayer, D

15. Roberto Luongo, G

16. Jarome Iginla, F

17. Henrik Lundqvist, G

18. Marian Hossa, F

19. Eric Staal, F

20. Joe Thornton, F

21. Shea Weber, D

22. Tomas Vokoun, G

23. Ilya Kovalchuk, F

24. Jaromir Jagr, F

25. Chris Pronger, D

26. Ryan Miller, G

27. Jason Spezza, F

28. Dany Heatley, F

29. Dan Boyle, D

30. Chris Osgood, G

31. Vincent Lecavalier, F

32. Alexander Semin, F

33. Dion Phaneuf, D

34. Shane Doan, F

35. Andrei Markov, D

36. Jay Bouwmeester, D

37. Jeff Carter, F

38. Tim Thomas, G

39. Brian Rafalski, D

40. Mike Green, D

41. Patrick Marleau, F

42. Dennis Wideman, D

43. Sergei Zubov, D

44. Jonathan Toews, F

45. Mark Streit, D

46. Olli Jokinen, F

47. Marian Gaborik, F

48. Johan Franzen, F

49. Daniel Alfredsson, F

50. Sergei Gonchar, D

You're a dumbass, you know that right?

[Interupt 0]

The same argument you make for Lids not being in the top 10, I'd make about Brodeur. I think he's been on the decline for a couple of years, and although he's without a doubt one of the best goalies to ever play, I don't think he's top 3 in the league right now. Maybe it's just his complete choking in the playoffs this year that make me say that, but I'd say Lundqvist, Luongo and Backstrom are all better than Marty right now.

Having Chara in the top 10 over Lids is insane imo. I know Chara won the Norris this year, but looking at both statistics and actual play out there on the ice for most of the season, Lids is still the best defenseman in the league. Chara had a Vezina winner behind him, and still had worse +/- than Lids who had the worst starting goalie in the league behind him. That's gotta count for something.

I agree that maybe Z isn't a top 10 player in the league. Top 10 forward? Hell yes. But not quite up there when you take goalies and d-men into account. Lids is definitely up there STILL.

+/- isn't the end all be all of stats.

Detroit's defense was atrocious during the regular season, including Lidstrom and a lot of it has to do with Lilja missing time.

If im going into game seven of the finals with just one defenseman im picking Chara or Pronger. They're both great defensively and they actually make players pay the price instead of just letting them camp out in front of the net.

If anything, this thread proves that Pronger doesn't get enough respect. Lidstrom has a great stick but it doesn't make up for the times when he gets man handled by bigger players like Getzlaf and it results in a goal.

Osgood was "Off" this year but his defense was terrible, he and Conklin were hung out to dry on multiple occasions.

[Selke13 0]

At least he didn't put Jiri Hudler on there.

thought the same thing

[egroen 384]

The media "Annoited" Lidstrom the best defenseman in the league for a decade.

Chara plays the same game but is much more physical, its the same story with Pronger.

Did you really expect Lidstrom to keep winning the Norris until he retired due to boredom? Hes slowed a step or two in the last couple years. He gets beat much more consistently and the "Off games" that were unheard of a couple seasons ago, happen more and more frequently, including in the playoffs.

Take off the homer glasses and realize that there are teams in this league not located in Detroit. If you listened to the majority of this board, they'd lead you to believe that Lidstrom should have won the Hart and Norris every year since 99. Nothing more than hype and Ken Daniels.

Lidstrom is a great player, one of the top defenseman in the league but hes not an MVP candidate and this team will survive just fine without him.

Did you watch Chara in the playoffs? He sucked.

4 points in 11 games and only a +1 playing over 25 minutes on the team that had the lowest Goals Against Average in the post-season.

The media tends to equate big hits with defense, so it is actually remarkable Lidstrom has done as well as he has in Norris voting; he is about the most unsexy elite player in the league. Any chance the media gets to award someone else less deserving, they will -- like this year and 1998.

Did Chara's "physical play" prevent more goals than Lidstrom? Not even in the wildest stretch of the imagination.

Even Strength Goals against per 20 min when Chara is on the ice: .778 (amongst worst on team)

Even Strength Goals against per 20 min when Lidstrom is on the ice: .527 (amongst best on team)

Keep in mind Boston let in 50 LESS goals this year than Detroit during the regular season.

Tim Thomas BOS 2.10 GAA .933 SV%

Chris Osgood DET 3.09 GAA .887 SV%

Did Chara's "physical play" help his team score more goals? Nope, not there either.

Lidstrom had 59 pts in 78 games and was a +31

Chara had 50 points in 80 games and was a +23 (a -1 in his final 30 games)

I'll tell you where "physical play" resulted in a "win" for Chara: Penalty minutes

Chara, his team's top penalty killer was in the box, hindering his team, for three times as much as Lidstrom (95 min to 30 min)

Lidstrom may have had a "down" year, but he was still a hell of a lot better than Zdeno Chara.

[kuj0 0]

i think the most criminal player in this whole thing is Yashin at #71, the guy is 35 and has probably the worst post season performer in the history of nhl captains

Edited June 30, 2009 by kuj0

[Interupt 0]

Did you watch Chara in the playoffs? He sucked.

4 points in 11 games and only a +1 playing over 25 minutes on the team that had the lowest Goals Against Average in the post-season.

The media tends to equate big hits with defense, so it is actually remarkable Lidstrom has done as well as he has in Norris voting; he is about the most unsexy elite player in the league. Any chance the media gets to award someone else less deserving, they will -- like this year and 1998.

Did Chara's "physical play" prevent more goals than Lidstrom? Not even in the wildest stretch of the imagination.

Even Strength Goals against per 20 min when Chara is on the ice: .778 (amongst worst on team)

Even Strength Goals against per 20 min when Lidstrom is on the ice: .527 (amongst best on team)

Keep in mind Boston let in 50 LESS goals this year than Detroit during the regular season.

Tim Thomas BOS 2.10 GAA .933 SV%

Chris Osgood DET 3.09 GAA .887 SV%

Did Chara's "physical play" help his team score more goals? Nope, not there either.

Lidstrom had 59 pts in 78 games and was a +31

Chara had 50 points in 80 games and was a +23 (a -1 in his final 30 games)

I'll tell you where "physical play" resulted in a "win" for Chara: Penalty minutes

Chara, his team's top penalty killer was in the box, hindering his team, for three times as much as Lidstrom (95 min to 30 min)

Lidstrom may have had a "down" year, but he was still a hell of a lot better than Zdeno Chara.

Again, nothing but stats. What does this team lack? A big physical defenseman. Ericsson really isn't that, Lilja is the only example. Everyone else on the team plays a Lidstrom-lite game.

Imagine Chara or Pronger on a line with Rafalski.

9 points an slightly higher +/- doesn't make up for a foot in height and 50lbs.

Chara brings something to the game which Lidstrom never has and never can.

[BlakKy 58]

+/- isn't the end all be all of stats.

Detroit's defense was atrocious during the regular season, including Lidstrom and a lot of it has to do with Lilja missing time.

If im going into game seven of the finals with just one defenseman im picking Chara or Pronger. They're both great defensively and they actually make players pay the price instead of just letting them camp out in front of the net.

If anything, this thread proves that Pronger doesn't get enough respect. Lidstrom has a great stick but it doesn't make up for the times when he gets man handled by bigger players like Getzlaf and it results in a goal.

Osgood was "Off" this year but his defense was terrible, he and Conklin were hung out to dry on multiple occasions.

Lidstrom is rarely manhandled. In fact... almost never sounds more appropriate. One telling stat regarding this facet of play is the fact that he is almost never injured. One awkward hit by Lappy sidelined him for a week and having his scrotum torn by a cheapshot are some examples of what it takes to "manhandle" Lidstrom.

The fact is Lidstrom is never out of position, always knows where to keep his stick, never takes penalties that aren't absolutely necessary, plays by the rules, competes for the Norris and +/- award every year, and plays better without his stick than a lot of Dmen do with theirs.

[egroen 384]

Again, nothing but stats. What does this team lack? A big physical defenseman. Ericsson really isn't that, Lilja is the only example. Everyone else on the team plays a Lidstrom-lite game.

Imagine Chara or Pronger on a line with Rafalski.

9 points an slightly higher +/- doesn't make up for a foot in height and 50lbs.

Chara brings something to the game which Lidstrom never has and never can.

The fact of the matter is a LOT less goals were scored when Lidstrom was on the ice than when Chara was on the ice.... and Lidstrom was on a team that let in 50 MORE goals than Boston.

Hal Gill brings something to the table that Lidstrom does not have either. Who cares?

[egroen 384]

Lidstrom is rarely manhandled. In fact... almost never sounds more appropriate. One telling stat regarding this facet of play is the fact that he is almost never injured. One awkward hit by Lappy sidelined him for a week and having his scrotum torn by a cheapshot are some examples of what it takes to "manhandle" Lidstrom.

The fact is Lidstrom is never out of position, always knows where to keep his stick, never takes penalties that aren't absolutely necessary, plays by the rules, competes for the Norris and +/- award every year, and plays better without his stick than a lot of Dmen do with theirs.

Chara has missed more games to injury in 11 years than Lidstrom has in 17 years.

Lidstrom is the consummate "iron man" of the NHL.

[dat's sick 1,002]

Again, nothing but stats. What does this team lack? A big physical defenseman. Ericsson really isn't that, Lilja is the only example. Everyone else on the team plays a Lidstrom-lite game.

Imagine Chara or Pronger on a line with Rafalski.

9 points an slightly higher +/- doesn't make up for a foot in height and 50lbs.

Chara brings something to the game which Lidstrom never has and never can.

Is that you Don Cherry?

Whoop-de-do he's more physical. Lidstrom is better at everything else, including preventing the other team from scoring (otherwise known as playing defense, the main job of a DEFENSEMAN).

Edited June 30, 2009 by dat's sick

[soonboomer 31]

Again, nothing but stats. What does this team lack? A big physical defenseman. Ericsson really isn't that, Lilja is the only example. Everyone else on the team plays a Lidstrom-lite game.

Imagine Chara or Pronger on a line with Rafalski.

9 points an slightly higher +/- doesn't make up for a foot in height and 50lbs.

Chara brings something to the game which Lidstrom never has and never can.

This team lacks nothing. Lest you forget, they've been the most successful team in the league in recent memory (go back as many years as you choose) and were a physically beat up team in the playoffs. I don't recall the injuries to Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Rafalski being the type that could have been avoided if they had a "big physical defenseman". I'm not taking anything away from the Penguins, but this "soft" Wings team was the favorite in Las Vegas to win the 2009 cup ( a huge favorite at -240 to win game 7) . Didn't happen, but a good argument could be made that they were still the best team. Even as we speak, the Redwings at 6 to 1 are again the favorite to win the 2010 cup. People like you are blowing this situation way out of hand.