88 goals, 118 assists, and 206 points

[eva unit zero 271]

Yup, but you have to realize that those players that replace them will be able to play and contribute and get goals and assists (which also count as points!).

You see, when the other guys leave, other dudes get to play in their place. Those guys will be able to contribute to the team's effort. You seem to forget that!

I know we will miss Hossa, he was a dominating force in the playoffs with all that scoring he did. Now we have to make due with guys like Helm...

2009 Playoffs

Hossa - 23 games, 6 goals, 9 assists, 15 points

Helm - 23 games, 4 goals, 1 assist, 5 points

Now that doesn't seem impressive for Helm, unless you forget that Hossa played on the first line with the Red Wings best players and got gobs of ice time while Helm played on the fourth line with the Wings 4th line talent, getting barely any ice time.

No Hossa means more Helm and other people who are capable of putting in an effort.

Because it's ok to point out that Helm scored less because he was on the 4th line...but if you point out that Hudler was on the 4th line "he's a product of the system" because he small. Hmm.

[thedisappearer 291]

Because it's ok to point out that Helm scored less because he was on the 4th line...but if you point out that Hudler was on the 4th line "he's a product of the system" because he small. Hmm.

Compare Helm and Huder's PP time. Then get back to me.

I don't care either way, but Huds wasn't a 4th line player.

[eva unit zero 271]

Compare Helm and Huder's PP time. Then get back to me.

I don't care either way, but Huds wasn't a 4th line player.

In the playoffs he played on Helm's line at least half the time at even strength this year and last. So either Hudler was or Helm wasn't. Yes, Hudler played some PP time. But Hudler was also 7th in forward scoring at even strength among Wings forwards, but only 10th among forwards in ice time.

Comparison (Rank among forwards; ES points/ES ice time):

Zetterberg 1st/1st

Cleary 2nd/4th

Franzen 3rd/2nd

Filppula 4th/3rd

Hossa 5th/5th

Samuelsson 6th/6th

Hudler 7th/10th

Helm 8th/7th

Datsyuk 9th/8th

Holmstrom 10th/9th

Abdelkader 11th/13th

Leino 12th/15th

Draper 13th/14th

Maltby 14th/11th

Kopecky 14th/12th

Some notable things in this list: Hudler outscored Datsyuk and Holmstrom despite playing less time. He was only one point behind Samuelsson despite playing considerably less at even strength. And Hudler played considerably less than Helm at even strength also.

[RockyMountainWingGal 108]

I like how it's time to panic in early July because some players left as we knew they would.

The Wings are the same team that won the Cup in 2008 minus Sammy and Huds - two third line guys. Everyone always talked about how they couldn't wait for Sammy to leave - but now his point total will be sorely missed??

I'll toss in Drake and Hasek retiring after the 08 playoffs and it's still essentially the same team, plus a few guys who have excelled from GR (Helm, Ericcson).

The main concern is the same team that's two years older with alot of wear and tear.

And we should suddenly fear the Blackhawks, who have a coach that couldn't beat the Wings if we had to play the whole game 5 on 3. Personally, a little competition from the Hawks will make the regular season a bit more interesting...

I suspect the OP will be wearing a Hawks jersey come next April....good for him.

[thedisappearer 291]

In the playoffs he played on Helm's line at least half the time at even strength this year and last. So either Hudler was or Helm wasn't. Yes, Hudler played some PP time. But Hudler was also 7th in forward scoring at even strength among Wings forwards, but only 10th among forwards in ice time.

Comparison (Rank among forwards; ES points/ES ice time):

Zetterberg 1st/1st

Cleary 2nd/4th

Franzen 3rd/2nd

Filppula 4th/3rd

Hossa 5th/5th

Samuelsson 6th/6th

Hudler 7th/10th

Helm 8th/7th

Datsyuk 9th/8th

Holmstrom 10th/9th

Abdelkader 11th/13th

Leino 12th/15th

Draper 13th/14th

Maltby 14th/11th

Kopecky 14th/12th

Some notable things in this list: Hudler outscored Datsyuk and Holmstrom despite playing less time. He was only one point behind Samuelsson despite playing considerably less at even strength. And Hudler played considerably less than Helm at even strength also.

No, I'm not buying into the Eva Numbers Train again.

Give me total ice minutes and total PP ice minutes. Comparing Helm and Hudler is damn near retarded. So keep going.

[RedFX 48]

Ummm, I did not forget. I said that in the original post.

From the original post:

Obviously other guys will come in and get points, but if you expect four rookies to put up the kind of numbers that Sammy, Hossa and Hudler put up, I think you're being foolishly optimistic. Ericson's a defenseman for one thing so obviously he won't be netting too many goals. Helm and Abdelkader could surprise people this season with descent production but they're more likely to have typical rookie years with the ups and downs and lessons and all that. Leino is the biggest wild-card. He's got the most potential to score, but it's absolutely not a given that he's going to consistently find that knack in his first full season in the NHL. If he nets 15 goals, I'll be thrilled. He's got the skill for certain to do so, but if he only manages to put up 10, I sure won't hold it against him.

All these guys are coming in as rookies and their role is going to be far more defined than it's been for them thus far. They're going to be roster players and are going to be expected to contribute. That brings a kind of pressure they haven't really been exposed to yet coming up for brief stints due to injuries. I'm thinking Helm and Ericson are going to be most ready to contribute to the overall success of the team this year, but they're also guys that aren't as likely to score as much as Abs or Leino likely will in time.

Again, I'm not saying that I don't hope all these guys have great years. I'm certainly not saying that we won't make up a single point of the 206 we lost. And I'm absolutely not saying that we're screwed. But this is likely to be the toughest regular season this team has had in a long, long time.

P.S. We really, really, really, really need Lilja to be good to go for the start of the season.

You're also assuming the rookie group will be the only players who can eat away at that 88 goal margin. Alot of our players are capable of stepping up and increasing their production. Maybe Z gets 40-50 again, maybe this is the year Datsyuk breaks 100 pts. Maybe Franzen gets 40, maybe Cleary and Flip each get 20+. Maybe Holmstrom gets put back on the top line and has a rebound year. Alot of these guys have shown they're capable of stepping up and putting up big numbers out of nowhere, there's no reason that can't happen again.

Not saying that will equal 88 goals, but its still enough to put us in a comfortable spot.

[eva unit zero 271]

No, I'm not buying into the Eva Numbers Train again.

Give me total ice minutes and total PP ice minutes. Comparing Helm and Hudler is damn near retarded. So keep going.

Ok, here's total ES ice time and g-a-pt for a two players. All stats are even strength only playoff stats from this season.

Jiri Hudler- 23GP, 244:45 ES TOI, 2g-4a-6pt

Pavel Datsyuk- 16GP, 250:28ES TOI, 0g-5a-5pt

Is that a clearer picture for you? Fewer minutes than Datsyuk at ES, more goals, and more points. Would have probably been more goals than he scored, and more assists than Datsyuk too, had he had any even strength linemates capable of finishing. Instead, he had to create the opportunity and then finish it himself- as he was basically the only offensive threat on his line most shifts.

But hopefully this will help dispel the myth that Hudler performed poorly in the postseason because his numbers dipped slightly, when the truth is that he simply WASN'T ON THE ICE. Check his ice time...it dips from the regular season to the playoffs. Combine that with the fact that the Wings were playing more defensively and saw fewer power plays during the playoffs, and the chances Hudler was going to maintain his scoring pace were slim.

[Guest Crymson]

It's not about being pessimistic or negative at all. It's about trying to be objective.

Despite several posted queries to the effect by myself, you still have not answered the question of what your so-called "objectiveness" will achieve. Is optimism is dangerous to you, or is pessimism just safer?

Also, bear in mind that your "objectiveness" is, like that of everyone else, entirely subjective.

[under_par_00 45]

You're also assuming the rookie group will be the only players who can eat away at that 88 goal margin. Alot of our players are capable of stepping up and increasing their production. Maybe Z gets 40-50 again, maybe this is the year Datsyuk breaks 100 pts. Maybe Franzen gets 40, maybe Cleary and Flip each get 20+. Maybe Holmstrom gets put back on the top line and has a rebound year. Alot of these guys have shown they're capable of stepping up and putting up big numbers out of nowhere, there's no reason that can't happen again.

Not saying that will equal 88 goals, but its still enough to put us in a comfortable spot.

If Dats and Z are reunited then I can see Z netting 40-50 and Dats breaking the 100 pt mark. Fil is going to have a better year than last year, and mark my words he will net 20+ and have more assists if he stays healthy. With the addition of Helm and Leino, the team next year will be able to put a nice dent into that 88 goal, 118 assist total. Plus they know that they have to play solid defence. Im not worried.

[Wingseroo 0]

If Dats and Z are reunited then I can see Z netting 40-50 and Dats breaking the 100 pt mark. Fil is going to have a better year than last year, and mark my words he will net 20+ and have more assists if he stays healthy. With the addition of Helm and Leino, the team next year will be able to put a nice dent into that 88 goal, 118 assist total. Plus they know that they have to play solid defence. Im not worried.

The problem is that if you put them together it reduces the the talent on 2nd line... Is it better to be a 1 line or 2 line team... This is hard because we are used to 4 line teams...

[under_par_00 45]

I think Dats and Z have to be together like in 07/08. They are just too dominant together, and it is time for Filppula to get on the 2nd line. A second line of

Franzen - Filppula - Leino (Cleary) is also pretty strong. Fil is good at faceoffs, and Helm has shown he is also good, so I suspect he will center the 3rd line.

[under_par_00 45]

I think Dats and Z have to be together like in 07/08. They are just too dominant together, and it is time for Filppula to get on the 2nd line. A second line of

Franzen - Filppula - Leino (Cleary) is also pretty strong. Fil is good at faceoffs, and Helm has shown he is also good, so I suspect he will center the 3rd line.

[Holmstrom96 347]

P.S. We really, really, really, really need Lilja to be good to go for the start of the season.

LOL. I wholeheartedly agree.

[egroen 384]

That article is coming from Columbus and they totally hacked up what Kenny Holland really said. If you listen to the actually audio interview from start to finish, you wouldn't have made your post. It's easy to hack some quotes from an interview to paint an entirely different picture from the what really was said. I actually thought you were smarter than that egroen, guess not.

I read from Holland that next season will be a challenging one -- and the wings are not nearly as strong on paper as they have been in over 15 years -- I agree 100% with that. I'm still not sure how admitting that is "whining" or predicting "doom and gloom". The strongest team on paper is rarely the team hoisting the Cup at the end of the year.

Most of you are commenting on how the rookies will step right in and make up a lot of those points, well it is not the rookies who the bulk of this production will really fall onto, it is the existing players - many of whom are capable of more points than they had last year.

I believe Datsyuk had 34 points his rookie year, and Zetterberg had 44 and was runner-up for the Calder. Yet many just assume Leino will at least be right there, and the others will be close. In reality, if Leino gets 30 points it is a successful season for him, but I would not count on much more. Obviously you can count on much less from Helm, Ericsson and Abdelkader.

[egroen 384]

I think Dats and Z have to be together like in 07/08. They are just too dominant together, and it is time for Filppula to get on the 2nd line. A second line of

Franzen - Filppula - Leino (Cleary) is also pretty strong. Fil is good at faceoffs, and Helm has shown he is also good, so I suspect he will center the 3rd line.

I really hope the "separate them" experiment is done and buried.

[Holmstrom96 347]

I really hope the "separate them" experiment is done and buried.

^This

[Guest Crymson]

I'm still waiting for an answer...

[godwings19 0]

I think that you will see a new line in zetterberg, datsyuk, and franzen. Fippula and cleary have to step it up or someone new will be there to replace them.

[gowingsgo 3]

While its bothersome to lose that much production, we do have players who will step up and score goals. Its also not so much about the cumulative total more so than it is about the game to game total. We only need to score 1 more than the competition each night. We will probably see a more defensive style if we struggle with production.

[awingsincebirth 0]

"Nobody has the knowledge Detroit does, from being through it so many years now," he said. "We can all talk about it, but until we put our teams through it and come out on the other side, it's all just talk.

"Until you beat that team, everything goes through Detroit."

I really like this quote from Hitchcock (IMO, as classy a coach as your gonna find in this league).

A lot of talk in this thread has been about how the coming regular season is going to be a tough one. I can't disagree. Games will be tighter, and we will score fewer goals. For anyone to deny that would be lunacy. Okay. This team WILL make the playoffs and they won't be one of the bottom seeds fighting til the bitter end to get in. I think most people recognize that as well. We may well win the division, the conference, or the league, but it is far from guaranteed.

Then comes the playoffs.

The fact that no one seems to be talking about the playoffs and the core of our team baffles my mind. As cautiously optimistic as I am about the regular season, I am still incredibly confident about how this team will play when the second season rolls around. Why?.....Why not? This core has dispelled a lot of the memories of past playoff flops that we were all so accustomed to five years ago. This team steps it UP when it matters the most. In the past three years we won a Cup, lost in game 7 of the Cup finals, and fell just a bit short of beating a devilishly tough Anaheim team (who, with all-do-respect to the late Ottawa Senators, were the last thing standing in our way of taking home the Cup that year).

I agree fully with Hitchcock that, no matter where we finish in the regular season, that the road to the Cup still runs through the D, and if Chicago or anyone else wants it, they'll likely have to pry it from Z's, Mule's, Nick's, and Ozzie's cold, dead fingers (figureatively, of course). I don't know if the new blood will replace a reasonable amount of the production that we have lost. I don't know that Z and Mule will both put up 40+ and Dats will finally top 100 points. I don't know if Flip can take the next step and become a 2nd tier superstar in this league (because I believe he has the potential). But I do know that we will have enough to keep us playing into April, and that's when this team will step up to a level that will make us sorry we doubted them so much on days like today. Whether that level will be enough to get the Cup back where it belongs remains to be seen. But we won't be going down without a hell of a fight.

[stormboy 47]

for some reason, every time i see the title of this thread i start singing, "five-hundred twenty-five-thousand, six-hundred miiinutes." i don't know.

[titanium2 867]

for some reason, every time i see the title of this thread i start singing, "five-hundred twenty-five-thousand, six-hundred miiinutes." i don't know.

But I would score 500 goals

And I would dish 900 assists

Just to be the man who shut up 1000 fans

Who bitched about last year's stats

The Proclaimers - 500 miles (just in case)

[ilmickeyli 40]

From Rent.. to the proclaimers? lol

[Decoy Jones 0]

I didn't read the whole thread so maybe this has already been asked. When figuring those stas that put the Wings at 28th place, did you also take into account the loss of the players from the other teams? By points we lost our 3rd,7th,10, and 13th players. When doing the math did it take those same point producers out of every other team? If so that sucks for us, if not it's comparing a roster of 12 forwards against a roster of 8 forwards.

Again, sorry if this question was already asked.

Side note: With Sammy and Kopecky gone, I expect Dats and Z both to have at least 206 points by the olympic break!

[NomadFromKazoo 42]

Not recognizing that Chicago is on the ascent while the Wings are scrambling a bit this off season is not being realistic...

Already having most of our core signed for years we sign Z and Mule until the next ice age. Lids isn't going anywhere if he wants to play. Kopecky was a marginal player and we have a swarm of youth coming. Sammy had big, gaping weaknesses with his strengths. And what did we lose? Looks like Hudler, but we still own his NHL rights and he's a midget in a growing league and Hossa who took a cut to stay here and would have again but we just couldn't get close because of the cap, but we almost swung a deal to keep him we never should have been in contention in (in theory in the cap age) to get.

And you call that SCRAMBLING? Wow. Give me more SCRAMBLING baby!