NHL Investigating Hossa & Pronger's contracts

[#19forPresident! 1]

Geez their front office has been as loose as a 7 year old playing Monopoly this summer.

That kind of spending is pretty damned amazing coming from a big league organization.

Edit: also IDK who has loose lips in Chi Town, but I thought the retirement thing was implied enough without someone providing enough evidence for the league to move on it.

Edited July 31, 2009 by #19forPresident!

[RusDRW 155]

I can imagine how this will be investigated...

- Mr. Hossa did you have in mind retiring before 40 by signing this contract?

- No.

- Mr. Bowman/Tallon did you talk to Mr. Hossa about retiring before 40 when negotiated that contract?

- No.

- Ladies and gentleman! Everything is fine.

I mean they have no tools to carry out any sort of investigation. Asking straighforwadly will always lead to lying. That is all.

[40#1Fan 0]

I think Z and Franzen just set the ball rolling. They were the first of their kind in some ways to sign such deals. I wasn't so surprised about Franzen's slipping under but I was a bit surprised about Z's not taking more heat. I had a feeling they'd get away with it, but I also had a feeling that the league would do all they could to prevent such deals in the future. That looks to indeed be the case at this point.

From MLIVE:

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2009/07/th...ing_better.html

Update #2, still the middle of the night: The Globe and Mail's James Mirtle isn't happy with the fact that this will probably go nowhere, but the point is clearly that the Red Wings at least believe that Henrik Zetterberg and Johan Franzen can fulfill the balances of their respective contracts, while the Blackhawks probably negotiated the deal with a very specific retirement date in mind.

[NGKEIB 32]

I find this funny, but I don't see how the Hawks can get in trouble for it, unless the NHL has a source inside. But all that that guy would be doing is guaranteeing that he never gets another job with any sports franchise for the rest of his life.

This screw-up will go alongside the other dumb things that were done this summer, but I don't think that they'll get penalised for it. The Hawks are one of the many teams to have found a way around the CBA. Fair enough. The NHL is just being pissy.

[55fan 5,133]

So if they want to prevent this from happening again, just add a clause that long-term contracts may not extend to an age beyond 40.

Until then, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't care if it is the Hawks. If they got around the Cap and didn't break the rules, good on them.

[Wingseroo 0]

Do not compare Zetts deal with this one... The difference in pay at the back end of this one is a lot different... I said when he got signed by Chicago looked like a 6 or so year deal with a buyout or retirement... Zetts will play out his contract or have money added depending on the market in a few years... These deals are nothing alike...

[Jasper84 333]

If they do end up finding this to be an 'illegal' contract, is that all that happens is fines + loss of draft picks? I'd assume that they'd void Hossa's current contract along with that, forcing them to either re-negotiate or other teams able to offer him contract. Anyone know the answer to that?

[StevieY9802 6]

Well first DUH NHL! I knew this when he signed it. Hossa will not play till he's 42. Anyone who thought he would is stupid. He won't be nearly as affective after age 38 and everyone knew this.

As far as Hanks deal I can see him more likely to play till he's 40. Yzerman and Larionov did it and I think he could do the same. Won't be as dominant but still can contribute. Franzen I'm not as sure about. But he did start as a checker so he could go back to that MAYBE.

[NGKEIB 32]

They couldn't penalize the Hawks. They've done nothing wrong. This is probably a sign that the NHL is going to move to close the loophole as soon as they can - and making an example of the Hawks would be the easiest way of doing that. Still not sure how they can prove anything...

[JPT 26]

What kind of evidence or proof can the league have of this? Waste of time for the NHL.

No way Z plays to 40. He already has back issues and isn't the smoothest of skaters.

[dat's sick 1,002]

What kind of evidence or proof can the league have of this? Waste of time for the NHL.

No way Z plays to 40. He already has back issues and isn't the smoothest of skaters.

I'd still say it's more likely Z plays to 40 than it is that Hossa plays til he's 42.

As much as I like the Z and Franzen deals and the cap hits they give us, I think maybe the league should have some kind of limit to how many years you can sign a player to beyond the age of say, 35.

Meaning you could sign a 20 year old to a 15 year contract, but a 30 year old you can only sign to maybe 7-8 years at the most.

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

Has he applied for IOD benefits yet?

[StevieY9802 6]

As much as I like the Z and Franzen deals and the cap hits they give us, I think maybe the league should have some kind of limit to how many years you can sign a player to beyond the age of say, 35.

Meaning you could sign a 20 year old to a 15 year contract, but a 30 year old you can only sign to maybe 7-8 years at the most.

I could very much see that in the next CBA. The NHL brought this on themselves though. They didn't want guys getting different cap hits each year as a way to get around the cap so they made it the average of the contract. Didn't take long for GM's to see how to get around that.

[egroen 384]

Hossa's contract was approved by the NHL -- What we have here is a squeeler! Sweet!

Someone within or close to the Chicago organization is tattling (over the retirement talk), or they would have absolutely nothing to go on and certainly would not have made this public.

There's a lot of bad blood in and out of that office. Classic case of "Who Dunnit?"

Tallon or one of his minions? - everyone knows Tallon wanted to sign Havlat and not Hossa.

Who's the rat?

Edited July 31, 2009 by egroen

[MadMan Mark 0]

He's missing the first 25% of the season. That's hardly someone who "might give them 1/3 to 1/2 of a season".

Do you really think he's only going to miss 25%? The mighty PR dept of the Hawks has come out BEFORE the surgery and says he'll be back in December. . . I'll bet you won't see him on the ice until mid-Jan at the earliest.

[Tommy_Like_Wingy 25]

If this happens to the Wings it'll be ridiculous. People laugh now because it's the Hawks but this is just the beginning.

It's still ridiculous that they acted within the rules and are getting punished for it.

[Guest ZetterbergFourty]

HAHA!

[NGKEIB 32]

If this happens to the Wings it'll be ridiculous. People laugh now because it's the Hawks but this is just the beginning.

It's still ridiculous that they acted within the rules and are getting punished for it.

I don't think that they will be punished for it. The thing that all of the owners and teams fear most is them being picked off one by one. Their fear will bind them together, and the teams won't stand for Chicago getting a tough penalty... Especially when the charges would be next to impossible to prove. If Tallon or some other disgruntled Hawk says something, it's just his word against Hossa's and Bowman's.

[egroen 384]

If this happens to the Wings it'll be ridiculous. People laugh now because it's the Hawks but this is just the beginning.

It's still ridiculous that they acted within the rules and are getting punished for it.

There's a world of difference between Hossa's and Zetterberg's & Franzen's deals, though it's really not even about the contracts themselves - all of which were approved. It is about whether there was any collusion involved between Chicago and Hossa about retirning before it was up. It appears info has come to light since the signing.

[Buppy 1,720]

My thought is that Tallon or someone upset over his being replaced as GM said something, and ultimately nothing will happen because they can't prove any rules were broken.

It's not unprecedented for a player to play into his 40s. Assuming Hossa makes it that far, he won't likely be worth more than 750k or whatever his salary is then, much less over 5 mil. So I don't really even think of it as a loophole. More a case of trading future cap space for present. Early retirement is the only thing that makes it suspect.

The CBA already has a clause for contracts signed when the player is 35 or older that says the team takes the cap hit for the full term even if the player retires or is sent to the minors. A simple amendment could apply that to any contract that extends past age 35.

[MadMan Mark 0]

I have to agree that proving collusion wil be difficult. Quite honestly it will be fun watching Hossa wallow in Chi for the remainder of his career. Their foolish off-season moves, i.e. signing Hossa to a looooooong-term deal, F-ing up their qualifying offers to RFA's, not addressing their mediocre D and goalie issues, etc, cost them their competitive future.

If penalties are applied, just add that to the list of:

1. Smashed against the cap currently

2. Lower cap (most likely) next year

3. Stuck with Campbell and Huet's contracts

4. Penalties applied to next year's cap for bonus overages

and the best one

5. Inability to sign as many RFA's next year as they want.

I've said it before, Chi dropped their pants this off-season, and the league is now laughing at them, well, at least I am. If you are a Hawks fan you went from jubilation to scratching your head to WTF!

[VM1138 1,921]

This is a little silly. OF COURSE they were circumventing the Cap. It's what all GMs try to do.

I'm definitely not a business guy because I don't see this story. So what if they discussed retirement? They would just be playing by the rules of the CBA.

EDIT: Oh, wow, blonde moment. I get it now. By signing him longer than they really wanted him for, and past age 40, they can lower the Cap hit overall with no intention of having him play that long. Wow.

Edited July 31, 2009 by VM1138

[Konnan511 1,736]

Wow it must really suck to be a Blackhawks fan.

Why? They have a good exciting young team poised for a Stanley Cup run. They're still going to be a good young team if they lose out on a few draft picks and five million bucks.

[gcom007 1,465]

There's a world of difference between Hossa's and Zetterberg's & Franzen's deals, though it's really not even about the contracts themselves - all of which were approved. It is about whether there was any collusion involved between Chicago and Hossa about retirning before it was up. It appears info has come to light since the signing.

A world of difference? How's that? They all sign 10+ year deals with 2-3 years tacked on the end with a small salary to lower the overall cap hit. Everyone and their mother was saying when Z signed, "No deal on those last two years! He'll probably retire! Ken Holland is so smart!" Everyone can see the writing on the wall with these deals and the likelihood of them actually being fulfilled to term. And to be blatantly honest, as much as I like them in some ways when they're working in our favor, I really don't like them in a lot of other ways. But

Hossa: 7 years at $7.9 million, 1 year at $4 million, 2 years at $1 million, 2 years at $750k

Zetterberg: basically $7-7.5 million for 9 years, 1 year at $3.35 million, 2 years at $1 million

The structure is different but the brunt of the money is coming in the first 8-9 years for these guys and after that, it falls off. If you really want to say there's a "world of difference," you better come up with something better than Chicago's just being a bit more extreme on the back-end drop. They're both set up to accomplish the same thing and they both just pull it off in a different way.

[egroen 384]

A world of difference? How's that? They all sign 10+ year deals with 2-3 years tacked on the end with a small salary to lower the overall cap hit. Everyone and their mother was saying when Z signed, "No deal on those last two years! He'll probably retire! Ken Holland is so smart!" Everyone can see the writing on the wall with these deals and the likelihood of them actually being fulfilled to term. And to be blatantly honest, as much as I like them in some ways when they're working in our favor, I really don't like them in a lot of other ways. But

Hossa: 7 years at $7.9 million, 1 year at $4 million, 2 years at $1 million, 2 years at $750k

Zetterberg: basically $7-7.5 million for 9 years, 1 year at $3.35 million, 2 years at $1 million

The structure is different but the brunt of the money is coming in the first 8-9 years for these guys and after that, it falls off. If you really want to say there's a "world of difference," you better come up with something better than Chicago's just being a bit more extreme on the back-end drop. They're both set up to accomplish the same thing and they both just pull it off in a different way.

Two extra years may not sound like a big deal, but they are when you are already 40 years-old.

It is much easier to make a case that Zetterberg and Franzen will be playing at 40 in the final years of their contracts (Detroit points to Lidstrom, Chelios, Yzerman, Larionov, Hull, Thomas, Hasek, etc... ) than Hossa will be at the age of 42 (Chicago points to ????).

Those two extra years Hossa has stacked ON TOP of Zetterberg's and Franzen's bring his cap hit down by almost $1m per year.

All three contracts are obviously trying to circumvent the cap - but one goes a good distance beyond the other two.

Edited July 31, 2009 by egroen