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NHL Investigating Hossa & Pronger's contracts


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#41 Tommy_Like_Wingy

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 10:14 AM

If this happens to the Wings it'll be ridiculous. People laugh now because it's the Hawks but this is just the beginning.

It's still ridiculous that they acted within the rules and are getting punished for it.

#42 ZetterbergFourty

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 10:17 AM

HAHA!

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#43 NGKEIB

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 10:23 AM

QUOTE (Tommy_Like_Wingy @ July 31, 2009 - 03:14PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If this happens to the Wings it'll be ridiculous. People laugh now because it's the Hawks but this is just the beginning.

It's still ridiculous that they acted within the rules and are getting punished for it.


I don't think that they will be punished for it. The thing that all of the owners and teams fear most is them being picked off one by one. Their fear will bind them together, and the teams won't stand for Chicago getting a tough penalty... Especially when the charges would be next to impossible to prove. If Tallon or some other disgruntled Hawk says something, it's just his word against Hossa's and Bowman's.
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#44 egroen

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 10:49 AM

QUOTE (Tommy_Like_Wingy @ July 31, 2009 - 11:14AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If this happens to the Wings it'll be ridiculous. People laugh now because it's the Hawks but this is just the beginning.

It's still ridiculous that they acted within the rules and are getting punished for it.

There's a world of difference between Hossa's and Zetterberg's & Franzen's deals, though it's really not even about the contracts themselves - all of which were approved. It is about whether there was any collusion involved between Chicago and Hossa about retirning before it was up. It appears info has come to light since the signing.


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#45 Buppy

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 10:55 AM

My thought is that Tallon or someone upset over his being replaced as GM said something, and ultimately nothing will happen because they can't prove any rules were broken.

It's not unprecedented for a player to play into his 40s. Assuming Hossa makes it that far, he won't likely be worth more than 750k or whatever his salary is then, much less over 5 mil. So I don't really even think of it as a loophole. More a case of trading future cap space for present. Early retirement is the only thing that makes it suspect.

The CBA already has a clause for contracts signed when the player is 35 or older that says the team takes the cap hit for the full term even if the player retires or is sent to the minors. A simple amendment could apply that to any contract that extends past age 35.

#46 MadMan Mark

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 11:06 AM

I have to agree that proving collusion wil be difficult. Quite honestly it will be fun watching Hossa wallow in Chi for the remainder of his career. Their foolish off-season moves, i.e. signing Hossa to a looooooong-term deal, F-ing up their qualifying offers to RFA's, not addressing their mediocre D and goalie issues, etc, cost them their competitive future.

If penalties are applied, just add that to the list of:

1. Smashed against the cap currently
2. Lower cap (most likely) next year
3. Stuck with Campbell and Huet's contracts
4. Penalties applied to next year's cap for bonus overages
and the best one
5. Inability to sign as many RFA's next year as they want.

I've said it before, Chi dropped their pants this off-season, and the league is now laughing at them, well, at least I am. If you are a Hawks fan you went from jubilation to scratching your head to WTF!

#47 VM1138

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 11:13 AM

This is a little silly. OF COURSE they were circumventing the Cap. It's what all GMs try to do.

I'm definitely not a business guy because I don't see this story. So what if they discussed retirement? They would just be playing by the rules of the CBA.

EDIT: Oh, wow, blonde moment. I get it now. By signing him longer than they really wanted him for, and past age 40, they can lower the Cap hit overall with no intention of having him play that long. Wow.

Edited by VM1138, 31 July 2009 - 11:15 AM.

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#48 Konnan511

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 11:19 AM

QUOTE (Lovin Jiri Fischer @ July 30, 2009 - 11:26PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wow it must really suck to be a Blackhawks fan.

Why? They have a good exciting young team poised for a Stanley Cup run. They're still going to be a good young team if they lose out on a few draft picks and five million bucks.
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#49 gcom007

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 11:21 AM

QUOTE (egroen @ July 31, 2009 - 11:49AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There's a world of difference between Hossa's and Zetterberg's & Franzen's deals, though it's really not even about the contracts themselves - all of which were approved. It is about whether there was any collusion involved between Chicago and Hossa about retirning before it was up. It appears info has come to light since the signing.


A world of difference? How's that? They all sign 10+ year deals with 2-3 years tacked on the end with a small salary to lower the overall cap hit. Everyone and their mother was saying when Z signed, "No deal on those last two years! He'll probably retire! Ken Holland is so smart!" Everyone can see the writing on the wall with these deals and the likelihood of them actually being fulfilled to term. And to be blatantly honest, as much as I like them in some ways when they're working in our favor, I really don't like them in a lot of other ways. But

Hossa: 7 years at $7.9 million, 1 year at $4 million, 2 years at $1 million, 2 years at $750k

Zetterberg: basically $7-7.5 million for 9 years, 1 year at $3.35 million, 2 years at $1 million

The structure is different but the brunt of the money is coming in the first 8-9 years for these guys and after that, it falls off. If you really want to say there's a "world of difference," you better come up with something better than Chicago's just being a bit more extreme on the back-end drop. They're both set up to accomplish the same thing and they both just pull it off in a different way.
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#50 egroen

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 11:31 AM

QUOTE (gcom007 @ July 31, 2009 - 12:21PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A world of difference? How's that? They all sign 10+ year deals with 2-3 years tacked on the end with a small salary to lower the overall cap hit. Everyone and their mother was saying when Z signed, "No deal on those last two years! He'll probably retire! Ken Holland is so smart!" Everyone can see the writing on the wall with these deals and the likelihood of them actually being fulfilled to term. And to be blatantly honest, as much as I like them in some ways when they're working in our favor, I really don't like them in a lot of other ways. But

Hossa: 7 years at $7.9 million, 1 year at $4 million, 2 years at $1 million, 2 years at $750k

Zetterberg: basically $7-7.5 million for 9 years, 1 year at $3.35 million, 2 years at $1 million

The structure is different but the brunt of the money is coming in the first 8-9 years for these guys and after that, it falls off. If you really want to say there's a "world of difference," you better come up with something better than Chicago's just being a bit more extreme on the back-end drop. They're both set up to accomplish the same thing and they both just pull it off in a different way.

Two extra years may not sound like a big deal, but they are when you are already 40 years-old.

It is much easier to make a case that Zetterberg and Franzen will be playing at 40 in the final years of their contracts (Detroit points to Lidstrom, Chelios, Yzerman, Larionov, Hull, Thomas, Hasek, etc... ) than Hossa will be at the age of 42 (Chicago points to ????).

Those two extra years Hossa has stacked ON TOP of Zetterberg's and Franzen's bring his cap hit down by almost $1m per year.

All three contracts are obviously trying to circumvent the cap - but one goes a good distance beyond the other two.

Edited by egroen, 31 July 2009 - 11:33 AM.

Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

"For my game, I don't need to score the goal," Konstantinov once explained. "I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals."

#51 gcom007

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 11:41 AM

QUOTE (egroen @ July 31, 2009 - 12:31PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Two extra years may not sound like a big deal, but they are when you are already 40 years-old.

It is much easier to make a case that Zetterberg and Franzen will be playing at 40 in the final years of their contracts (Detroit points to Lidstrom, Chelios, Yzerman, Larionov, Hull, Thomas, Hasek, etc... ) than Hossa will be at the age of 42 (Chicago points to ????).

Those two extra years Hossa has stacked ON TOP of Zetterberg's and Franzen's bring his cap hit down by almost $1m per year.

All three contracts are obviously trying to circumvent the cap - but one goes a good distance beyond the other two.


It's very hard for me to sit here and say that Chicago shouldn't be able to play "our" game because they don't have the over 40 crowd we do? Sorry, that just doesn't do it for me. I know it's nice to think that we're just better than everyone and we can get away with anything, but I'm not going to trash other teams for playing our game even if taken to a further extreme. Because after all, it's not "our game," it's a glitch in the system that perhaps we exploited first and luckily enough, we got away with it. If they tried to pull the deal off next year for Z after this, we'd probably face the same empty stare down from the league. All cases cited are extreme cases of pushing the rules of the cap. It is what it is. Everything else is just getting petty.
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#52 egroen

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 12:09 PM

QUOTE (gcom007 @ July 31, 2009 - 12:41PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's very hard for me to sit here and say that Chicago shouldn't be able to play "our" game because they don't have the over 40 crowd we do? Sorry, that just doesn't do it for me. I know it's nice to think that we're just better than everyone and we can get away with anything, but I'm not going to trash other teams for playing our game even if taken to a further extreme. Because after all, it's not "our game," it's a glitch in the system that perhaps we exploited first and luckily enough, we got away with it. If they tried to pull the deal off next year for Z after this, we'd probably face the same empty stare down from the league. All cases cited are extreme cases of pushing the rules of the cap. It is what it is. Everything else is just getting petty.

Just start listing me players who have played to 42 -- you're going to run out very quick.
40 is not nearly as difficult, on the Red Wings team alone even.

If 40 is pushing it, 42 is raping it.

Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

"For my game, I don't need to score the goal," Konstantinov once explained. "I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals."

#53 MadMan Mark

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 12:14 PM

QUOTE (egroen @ July 31, 2009 - 10:09AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If 40 is pushing it, 42 is raping it.


That, my friend, is hitting the nail on the head.

#54 96warrior

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 12:30 PM

Pronger Contract Under Review Too
Blog: KK Hockey By Paul

07/31/09 at 01:22 PM ET | Comments (0)


from Craig Custance of the Sporting News,

Marian Hossa’ contract isn’t the only one being scrutinized by the NHL. An NHL source told SportingNews.com that the league is investigating Philadelphia’s 7-year deal with Chris Pronger to see if it circumvented the CBA and salary cap.

NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly confirmed the investigation of Pronger’s contract in an e-mail to SportingNews.com.

Daly said Pronger’s contract was being investigated for the same reasons as Hossa’s deal.


#55 Frozen-Man

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 12:31 PM

QUOTE (55fan @ July 31, 2009 - 06:09AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't care if it is the Hawks. If they got around the Cap and didn't break the rules, good on them.



QUOTE (NGKEIB @ July 31, 2009 - 09:15AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They couldn't penalize the Hawks. They've done nothing wrong. This is probably a sign that the NHL is going to move to close the loophole as soon as they can - and making an example of the Hawks would be the easiest way of doing that. Still not sure how they can prove anything...



QUOTE (Tommy_Like_Wingy @ July 31, 2009 - 11:14AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's still ridiculous that they acted within the rules and are getting punished for it.



QUOTE (VM1138 @ July 31, 2009 - 12:13PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm definitely not a business guy because I don't see this story. So what if they discussed retirement? They would just be playing by the rules of the CBA.


You are all acting upon the assumption that they did not break the rules BUT there is a specific provision in the CBA which states that

QUOTE
Article 26 is designed to prohibit and prevent conduct that Circumvents the terms of this Agreement.


That is what the investigation is all about whether or not they violated the provisions of Article 26. Probably what they will cite if they find that they did is:

QUOTE
26.3 Circumventions.
(a) No Club or Club Actor, directly or indirectly, may: (i) enter into any
agreements, promises, undertakings, representations, commitments, inducements,
assurances of intent, or understandings of any kind, whether express, implied, oral or
written, including without limitation, any SPC, Qualifying Offer, Offer Sheet or other
transaction, or (ii) take or fail to take any action whatsoever, if either (i) or (ii) is intended
to or has the effect of defeating or Circumventing the provisions of this Agreement or the
intention of the parties as reflected by the provisions of this Agreement, including
without limitation, provisions with respect to the financial and other reporting obligations
of the Clubs and the League, Team Payroll Range, Player Compensation Cost
Redistribution System, the Entry Level System and/or Free Agency.
(i) Any act by a Club Actor that, if committed by the Club would
constitute a Circumvention, shall be imputed to the Club and shall
be deemed to be a Circumvention by the Club.

(b) No Player or Player Actor, directly or indirectly, may: (i) enter into any
agreements, promises, undertakings, representations, commitments, inducements,
assurances of intent, or understandings of any kind, whether express, implied, oral or
written, including without limitation, any SPC, Qualifying Offer, Offer Sheet or other
transaction, or (ii) take or fail to take any action whatsoever, if the Player knows or
reasonably should have known (measured by the objective standard of the "reasonable
Player under the circumstances") that either (i) or (ii) is intended to and has the effect of
defeating or Circumventing the provisions of this Agreement or the intention of the
parties as reflected by the provisions of this Agreement, including without limitation,
provisions with respect to the Team Payroll Range, the Entry Level System and/or Free
Agency.


The NHL found (or decided not to investigate because it was not as egregious or they had no proof) that the Wings did not violate Article 26 of the CBA when they signed Z and Mule. however, they are still looking into Hossa (probably either because they have a rat or because of the two extra years).


QUOTE (egroen @ July 31, 2009 - 01:09PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just start listing me players who have played to 42 -- you're going to run out very quick.
40 is not nearly as difficult, on the Red Wings team alone even.

If 40 is pushing it, 42 is raping it.


Exactly, pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain


#56 ltgator333

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 12:35 PM

QUOTE (Tommy_Like_Wingy @ July 31, 2009 - 11:14AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If this happens to the Wings it'll be ridiculous. People laugh now because it's the Hawks but this is just the beginning.

It's still ridiculous that they acted within the rules and are getting punished for it.



QFT

this pisses me off so bad I can't even form logical statements right now.





- LT

#57 egroen

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 12:37 PM

Pronger's contract itself is punishment enough -- in the likely event that Pronger does not play until the age of 42, Philly will still have his cap hit on the books (because his contract goes into affect after he turns 35).


Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

"For my game, I don't need to score the goal," Konstantinov once explained. "I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals."

#58 MadMan Mark

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 12:58 PM

QUOTE (egroen @ July 31, 2009 - 10:37AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pronger's contract itself is punishment enough -- in the likely event that Pronger does not play until the age of 42, Philly will still have his cap hit on the books (because his contract goes into affect after he turns 35).


Then I don't understand why the league is investigating. . . unless it is about something other than circumventing the cap because Philly is on the hooks for the life of the contract.

Aaaaaah, I figured it out. . . the NHL wants to add a clause to Pronger's contract that when Crosby has his head down and Pronger has him in his sights to take that whiny ***** out, Pronger must scream, "Head up, Sid! Head up, Sid!" and then skate right by him. It's the new league-mandated no-contact rule for Crosby.


#59 tux

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 01:46 PM

The NHL has already approved Hossa's contract (and Z's and Franzen's etc) so I don't see how it could posibly be about the length and terms of the contract. They'd look pretty stupid saying it's not a good contract now after approving it already. It has nothing to do with that so I don't know why all of the comparisons about them.

They are investigating rumors that the Hawks and Hossa talked about a specific time of retirement which is circumventing the cap and illegal.


#60 gcom007

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 02:09 PM

QUOTE (egroen @ July 31, 2009 - 01:09PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just start listing me players who have played to 42 -- you're going to run out very quick.
40 is not nearly as difficult, on the Red Wings team alone even.

If 40 is pushing it, 42 is raping it.


Any deal over 6-7 years is pushing it no matter how you shake it. I'm not going to ***** about Chicago when no doubt 29 other teams were bitching about us when we signed Franzen and Z in the same manner. Like I said, I don't really like any of the deals when it really shakes down. Sure, I'm not pissing and moaning about benefiting from it and I'd sign Hossa in a heartbeat to the same deal with the Wings, but I'm not going to be upset when the league cuts the ability to do this kind of tinkering out completely.
-Elliot...does not panic.





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