Lidstrom VS Broduer

[newfy 695]

Congratulations. That is quite the list of accomplishments.

Now does it make him the greatest goalie ever?

Does it make him better than Nicklas Lidstrom?

Does it make him even a top 5 goalie in the 100 year history of the NHL?

Did you even bother to compare Brodeur's accomplishments to some of the other greats, as well Lidstrom's?

Or do you just blow a gasket any time someone dares praise a Red Wing?

Lidstrom does not deserve to be in the discussion for best defenseman ever. That distinction belongs to Orr and Orr alone. Are you utterly retarded to suggest otherwise? Or just plain ignorant? Lidstrom might not even be the greatest Red Wing defenseman ever (though I believe he is), but you don't have a ******* clue about that either do you?

I'll be more than happy to get into this further, but I am going to bed. To be continued....

OK honestly people. If you don't think Brodeur is a top 5 goalie of all time lay off the crack pipe a bit. People are putting Cujo and Eddy the Eagle above him, thats just plain retarded. Just because he's beating our beloved Lidstrom in some stupid poll doesn't mean you have to tear his career apart. The he's a product of the system, if you're in New Jersey you're bound to win cups is stupid. The exact same thing about Lidstrom could be said. Lidstrom played with alot of greats here in Detroit so stop trying to downplay what Brodeur did for New Jersey.

I think Brodeur was more important in their cup wins the Lidstrom was here. Marty never really played with outstanding talent like Nick has here in Detroit.

They're both great players and I'm not on here ripping Lidtrom by any means but seriously people shut up, you sound retarded. (especially whoever put Cujo and Eddy above Marty)

[wingslionstigers 12]

Thats a tough one although id have to go with Lidstrom. They are in my books the best ever at there position.

[Reds4Life 51]

Brodeur is not even top5 player in last 10 years imho. Not even close.

[egroen 384]

We'll start with Lidstrom and go into the goalies, since this started with a comparison to Lidstrom.

Norris vs. Vezina (best at position)

Lidstrom: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 6, 6, 6, 8

Brodeur: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 8, 8

Eliminating the redundancy for easy comparison and we get:

Lidstrom: 1, 1, 6, 6, 6

Brodeur: 4, 4, 4, 5, 8

Clear advantage to Lidstrom

Team All Star Selections

Lidstrom: 9 1st Team Selections; 1 2nd Team and 1st Team All-Rookie

Brodeur: 3 1st Team; 4 2nd Team and 1st Team All-Rookie

Clear advantage to Lidstrom

Individual Stats (comparing most telling: Save Percentage vs. Points)

Lidstrom: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 5 vs. other defensemen

Brodeur: 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8

Lidstrom blows Brodeur away in actual individual performance

Playoffs

With the Devils, Brodeur has won 3 Stanley Cups

With the Red Wings, Lidstrom has won 4 Stanley Cups and a Conn Smythe

Both have an Olympic Gold Medal

Another clear advantage to Lidstrom

No argument can be made that Brodeur is a better player than Lidstrom

[SuperNovaXll 124]

Its impossible to put a goalie and a defense man up against each other.

Both are great players. However with that said... Go Lids! Its 51% to 49%. Hes catching up!

[egroen 384]

Its impossible to put a goalie and a defense man up against each other.

Both are great players. However with that said... Go Lids! Its 51% to 49%. Hes catching up!

Not at all impossible. Both are measured and awarded each and every year against their peers, how do they stack up?

Lidstrom has been much more successful at his position than Brodeur has been at his position.

I think it is a pretty easy comparison.

[egroen 384]

Hasek vs. Brodeur

Before we begin, we need to acknowledge that Hasek was stuck behind the Iron Curtain for years before being able to come over to the NHL. In Czechoslovakia, which was second to only the Soviet Union in World Championship play, Hasek earned top goalie (5 times) and player (3 times) awards. At the age of 16 he was playing against men in Czechoslovakia’s top league, and was widely considered the best goalie in Europe for years before ever coming to the NHL. In Hasek’s first year as a starter in the NHL, 1994 at the age of 29, he won the Vezina. This also happens to be the year Brodeur became the starter in New Jersey.

Hart

Hasek: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3

Brodeur: 3, 3, 3

Hasek won his Harts with an astounding 92% and 78% of the first place votes, and was by far and away the best player in the world those years. This was not simply a case of a “good player on weak team†though those Buffalo teams pretty much sucked.

Vezina

Hasek: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 6, 7, 8

Brodeur: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 8, 8

Considering Brodeur became a starter in the NHL at the age of 21, while Hasek did not until the age of 29, Brodeur has more “good†years. Hasek, however, has 2 more Vezinas in 5 less years as a starter and his peak was out-of-this-world better than Brodeur’s.

All Star Team Selections

Hasek: 6 1st Team and 1st Team All-Rookie

Brodeur: 3 1st Team; 4 2nd Team and 1st Team All-Rookie

Another win for Hasek

Save Percentage

Hasek: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9

Brodeur: 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8

An unbelievable blowout in Hasek’s advantage, despite 5 less years.

Hasek also retired (at the age of 42) with the highest Save Percentage for all goaltenders in the history of the NHL: .922 which Brodeur has beaten in only one season in his entire career.

Goals Against Average

Hasek: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 4, 4, 4, 6, 6, 7

Brodeur: 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 10, 10, 10

Somewhat close, so we’ll eliminate the redundancies and get:

Hasek: 1, 2, 4, 4, 6, 7

Brodeur: 3, 5, 5, 8, 10, 10, 10

Pretty decisively in Hasek’s favor. Hasek has also outplayed his backups by a much larger margin than Brodeur.

Shutouts

Hasek: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 6, 6

Brodeur: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10

Slight edge to Brodeur (3, 7, 8, 9, 10 vs. 4, 6, 6) whom has played 264 more NHL games than Hasek.

Playoffs

Brodeur has 3 Cups vs. Hasek’s one as a starter, however Hasek spent his prime on a Buffalo team that had no business being in the playoffs, let alone deep into the post-season. In 1998, for example, the Sabres were led offensively by Miroslav Satan with 46 points – yes, they were that bad. Hasek dragged that team on his back to the Conference Finals that year and to the Stanley Cup Finals the very next year, in two of the greatest post-season goaltending displays ever. The first year Hasek was on an actual Stanley Cup contender he won, defeating Patrick Roy in seven games in the process.

Playoff Save Percentage and Goals Against Average:

Hasek: .925 SV% 2.02 GAA (last playoff game at the age of 42)

Brodeur: .920 SV% 1.98 GAA (last playoff game at the age of 36)

Both goalies have won an Olympic Gold Medal, though Hasek’s win for Czechoslovakia against Roy’s Canada is much more impressive than Brodeur’s win for Canada over the USA and Mike Richter.

Ultimately, in 264 less games, Hasek has let in 600 less goals than Brodeur, despite being on a much worse team for his prime.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

We'll start with Lidstrom and go into the goalies, since this started with a comparison to Lidstrom.

Norris vs. Vezina (best at position)

Lidstrom: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 6, 6, 6, 8

Brodeur: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 8, 8

Eliminating the redundancy for easy comparison and we get:

Lidstrom: 1, 1, 6, 6, 6

Brodeur: 4, 4, 4, 5, 8

Clear advantage to Lidstrom

Team All Star Selections

Lidstrom: 9 1st Team Selections; 1 2nd Team and 1st Team All-Rookie

Brodeur: 3 1st Team; 4 2nd Team and 1st Team All-Rookie

Clear advantage to Lidstrom

Individual Stats (comparing most telling: Save Percentage vs. Points)

Lidstrom: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 5 vs. other defensemen

Brodeur: 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8

Lidstrom blows Brodeur away in actual individual performance

Playoffs

With the Devils, Brodeur has won 3 Stanley Cups

With the Red Wings, Lidstrom has won 4 Stanley Cups and a Conn Smythe

Both have an Olympic Gold Medal

Another clear advantage to Lidstrom

No argument can be made that Brodeur is a better player than Lidstrom

Lidstrom being far superior than other defenseman has absolutely no bearing on Martin Brodeur as a goaltender.

Who were Lidstrom's peers over the past 20 years? Who were Brodeur's? You show me that there have been more elite dmen playing roughly the same time period as Lidstrom than there were goalies playing against Brodeur and then maybe their individual award counts might mean something.

As for Gold Medals and Stanley Cups, those are team awards so don't be so ******* stupid as to think you can pawn them off as meaning something. The Cup MVP is more appropriate to the discussion.

I would argue Lidstrom has had a lesser field of elite dmen to challenge for awards than Brodeur has. And quite frankly, the Norris trophy tends to be an award that you can't slide some schmuck into. How many no names have won the Norris?

Now how many no names have won the Vezina? In the past 20 years you have had flukes like Jim Carey, Olaf Kolzig, Jose Theodore.

Predominantly, the Vezina has been contested by Roy, Belfour, Hasek and Brodeur.

Much stiffer competition than Lidstrom has faced.

Look at the past 20 years, you don't see the same level of competition, Lidstrom has owned the Norris. And the guys who have won it in between his wins, nobody would categorize as better than Nick.

But keep your head on straight and realize that that doesn't mean anything with regards to comparing him to Brodeur as being better.

You can't compare their individual awards. Well actually you can but you look ******* stupid doing it. They play different positions against different peer groups.

Simply being #1 amongst your peer group by a large margin doesn't indicate that the other guy is or is not the best amongst his peer group and perhaps even better, even if his margin of dominance is smaller. You have to factor in the level of competition for those accolades.

Frankly, and I have already said it, Lids belongs in the top dman discussion, Brodeur in the top goalie discussion.

I don't see a comparison between the 2. I don't think one can be called greater than the other for the flat fact that they play different positions.

What I do see, is another example of an LGWer with skin about as thick as micro chamber paper, who can't handle a stupid poll result. The fact that you let it get to you, when the ******* poll is inherently flawed, shows you to be of thin skin and relatively low intelligence.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Congratulations. That is quite the list of accomplishments.

Now does it make him the greatest goalie ever?

Does it make him better than Nicklas Lidstrom?

Does it make him even a top 5 goalie in the 100 year history of the NHL?

Did you even bother to compare Brodeur's accomplishments to some of the other greats, as well Lidstrom's?

Or do you just blow a gasket any time someone dares praise a Red Wing?

Lidstrom does not deserve to be in the discussion for best defenseman ever. That distinction belongs to Orr and Orr alone. Are you utterly retarded to suggest otherwise? Or just plain ignorant? Lidstrom might not even be the greatest Red Wing defenseman ever (though I believe he is), but you don't have a ******* clue about that either do you?

I'll be more than happy to get into this further, but I am going to bed. To be continued....

Further proof of your idiocy.

Did I claim he was better than Lidstrom? No, I specifically stated comparing them is dumb. I guess you have a problem with this basic concept.

As for Marty, yup, I think his accomplishments do warrant him in the discussion as best goalie ever let alone top 5.

And yes, considering Nick's accomplishments, I think he's deserving of being included in the debate with Orr.

Orr didn't even play 700 career games. Orr had how many injuries? Has anybody played more games, averaging more minutes of stellar all around defensive play than Lidstrom? I'd say he's pretty much worthy of the discussion and merely closing the door on him is absolutely wrong.

Orr was fast and revolutionized how the game was played by a dman. By and large he made it a position that could be utilized as a scoring weapon.

IMO, that doesn't clearly make him the #1, best ALL AROUND defender in history.

And you know what, many folks would agree with that. Quite frankly, many folks have had the debate over Orr/Lidstrom. Hence, I think he's worthy of being included in the discussion.

Now did I say for certain he was better than Orr? Nope, so no, I am not an idiot. Apparently it doesn't take one to know one as you clearly are lacking in the higher reasoning department these days.

And no, I don't blow a gasket when anybody praises a Red Wing. As a matter of fact all I have done in this discussion is level praise for Lidstrom..........and Brodeur.

I blow a gasket when people put down one of the greatest goaltenders in history because they're too juvenile to handle the results of a ridiculously misplaced poll that shouldn't exist.

This isn't about praising Lidstrom you turd. So don't try to make us believe it is. It's about bashing Brodeur because your sphincter is aching over the results of a dumb poll. It's aching so bad you feel the need to belittle the accomplishments of Brodeur and basically do, say and manipulate whatever data you can to prove an improvable.

Here's some advice for your aching sphincter. Get your head out of it and you'll feel better.

I'll say it one more time.

Lidstrom arguably greatest dman ever.

Brodeur arguabley greatest goalie ever.

Comparing them to one another = epic failure

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Hasek vs. Brodeur

Before we begin, we need to acknowledge that Hasek was stuck behind the Iron Curtain for years before being able to come over to the NHL. In Czechoslovakia, which was second to only the Soviet Union in World Championship play, Hasek earned top goalie (5 times) and player (3 times) awards. At the age of 16 he was playing against men in Czechoslovakia’s top league, and was widely considered the best goalie in Europe for years before ever coming to the NHL. In Hasek’s first year as a starter in the NHL, 1994 at the age of 29, he won the Vezina. This also happens to be the year Brodeur became the starter in New Jersey.

Hart

Hasek: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3

Brodeur: 3, 3, 3

Hasek won his Harts with an astounding 92% and 78% of the first place votes, and was by far and away the best player in the world those years. This was not simply a case of a “good player on weak team†though those Buffalo teams pretty much sucked.

Vezina

Hasek: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 6, 7, 8

Brodeur: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 8, 8

Considering Brodeur became a starter in the NHL at the age of 21, while Hasek did not until the age of 29, Brodeur has more “good†years. Hasek, however, has 2 more Vezinas in 5 less years as a starter and his peak was out-of-this-world better than Brodeur’s.

All Star Team Selections

Hasek: 6 1st Team and 1st Team All-Rookie

Brodeur: 3 1st Team; 4 2nd Team and 1st Team All-Rookie

Another win for Hasek

Save Percentage

Hasek: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9

Brodeur: 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8

An unbelievable blowout in Hasek’s advantage, despite 5 less years.

Hasek also retired (at the age of 42) with the highest Save Percentage for all goaltenders in the history of the NHL: .922 which Brodeur has beaten in only one season in his entire career.

Goals Against Average

Hasek: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 4, 4, 4, 6, 6, 7

Brodeur: 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 10, 10, 10

Somewhat close, so we’ll eliminate the redundancies and get:

Hasek: 1, 2, 4, 4, 6, 7

Brodeur: 3, 5, 5, 8, 10, 10, 10

Pretty decisively in Hasek’s favor. Hasek has also outplayed his backups by a much larger margin than Brodeur.

Shutouts

Hasek: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 6, 6

Brodeur: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10

Slight edge to Brodeur (3, 7, 8, 9, 10 vs. 4, 6, 6) whom has played 264 more NHL games than Hasek.

Playoffs

Brodeur has 3 Cups vs. Hasek’s one as a starter, however Hasek spent his prime on a Buffalo team that had no business being in the playoffs, let alone deep into the post-season. In 1998, for example, the Sabres were led offensively by Miroslav Satan with 46 points – yes, they were that bad. Hasek dragged that team on his back to the Conference Finals that year and to the Stanley Cup Finals the very next year, in two of the greatest post-season goaltending displays ever. The first year Hasek was on an actual Stanley Cup contender he won, defeating Patrick Roy in seven games in the process.

Playoff Save Percentage and Goals Against Average:

Hasek: .925 SV% 2.02 GAA (last playoff game at the age of 42)

Brodeur: .920 SV% 1.98 GAA (last playoff game at the age of 36)

Both goalies have won an Olympic Gold Medal, though Hasek’s win for Czechoslovakia against Roy’s Canada is much more impressive than Brodeur’s win for Canada over the USA and Mike Richter.

Ultimately, in 264 less games, Hasek has let in 600 less goals than Brodeur, despite being on a much worse team for his prime.

Do you work for Fox News? I mean seriously, this is like the ultimate spin job.

First you say that Brodeur isn't that great because he's a product of the system.

And then you say Hasek just HAS to be better (which I am not agreeing or disagreeing with) because he has more Vezinas.

And yet you make no allowances for the fact that a great player can have an advantage over another great player in winning awards when he plays on a lesser team.

It's the same reason why Hank or Pavel can't win an MVP when clearly, they are all around better players than anyone else in the league.

Quit your ******* spin job already. We don't all have turnip written on our ******* heads.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I dunno...I kinda see this as comparing apples to oranges.

Concise and brilliant as always!

[titanium2 867]

Do you work for Fox News? I mean seriously, this is like the ultimate spin job.

[cjm502 165]

Do you work for Fox News? I mean seriously, this is like the ultimate spin job.

First you say that Brodeur isn't that great because he's a product of the system.

And then you say Hasek just HAS to be better (which I am not agreeing or disagreeing with) because he has more Vezinas.

And yet you make no allowances for the fact that a great player can have an advantage over another great player in winning awards when he plays on a lesser team.

It's the same reason why Hank or Pavel can't win an MVP when clearly, they are all around better players than anyone else in the league.

Quit your ******* spin job already. We don't all have turnip written on our ******* heads.

Looks pretty convincing. He is not talking about JUST Vezinas. Plus Pavel and Hank play with Cleary and Homer, and have to deal with Ozzy in net. In their primes Hasek blows by Brodeur effortlessly. Face it.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

On another note, can anybody with first hand knowledge of Bobby Orr, having seen him play in person, on TV, etc........................has anyone here heard, seen or read enough about his play as a defender to elicit an educated opinion?

All the information I have found on Orr over the years has strictly been about his speed and offensive prowess.

Could he, night in and night out shut down the best forwards for every team? I don't care if he hit or fought or whatever. But how was he at actually defending? Did he even have to defend? Did he and the Bruins have the damn puck so much that they were always on the offensive when he was on the ice?

I have seen a multitude of All Time Defender lists and there seems to be a fair amount of debate.

I have seen Orr rated #1 on most.

I have seen Lidstrom rated #1 on all the lists that don't have Orr as #1.

I have also seen Lids ranked as low as 3, 4 and 5 behind Bourque, Shore and Harvey.

It seems to me that it could be said Orr was the greatest offensive dman ever (although Bourque's numbers trump everyone so if you like raw data like Ergoen does that might be a conflict for ya).

I would like to find out if anyone can say with any certainty that Orr would be included as one of the best, if not the best defensive defender of all time.

Is Mike Green a modern day (realistically speaking of course) version of Orr?

I don't have enough first hand knowledge of Orr but to be honest, I would be shocked if he was as good as Lidstrom defensively. Maybe he was. That's why I am asking.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Looks pretty convincing. He is not talking about JUST Vezinas. Plus Pavel and Hank play with Cleary and Homer, and have to deal with Ozzy in net. In their primes Hasek blows by Brodeur effortlessly. Face it.

That's your opinion. And like I said, Brodeur has the numbers, records (some of them) and accolades to warrant being in the debate as best ever.

Not once have I stated that beyond any doubt whatsoever, Brodeur is the greatest.

So you can take your "face it" comment and stick it up Egroen's sphincter.

Seriously, what is going on around here? It's like the collective IQ of the board is going down faster than a Thai hooker with a 5 dolla bill being waved in her face.

ps: let me just add that 'in their primes' means nothing to me so much as the breadth of their entire careers. Greatness in my mind includes longevity and the ability to do it at the highest level for the longest time.

Which is why Egroen's yawning commentary about Hasek playing at age 16 against a bunch of Czechs means absolutely nothing to me. Tretiak? Now what he accomplished I think would be more noteworthy. They beat the hell out of everyone, including the best the NHL had to offer. I'd take his international play into account long before I would Hasek's.

But just in case Hasek lovers didn't eat their Cheerios today and think I am bagging on him. I am not. I think he too is amazing and every bit worthy of a debate over who the best goalie of all time is.

Edited August 7, 2009 by GordieSid&Ted

[Reds4Life 51]

That's your opinion. And like I said, Brodeur has the numbers, records (some of them) and accolades to warrant being in the debate as best ever.

Not once have I stated that beyond any doubt whatsoever, Brodeur is the greatest.

So you can take your "face it" comment and stick it up Egroen's sphincter.

Seriously, what is going on around here? It's like the collective IQ of the board is going down faster than a Thai hooker with a 5 dolla bill being waved in her face.

One can easily compare Lidstrom and Brodeur. But you do not seem capable of such a thing. So f*** off with your ridiculous comments.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Reds4Life

[cjm502 165]

On another note, can anybody with first hand knowledge of Bobby Orr, having seen him play in person, on TV, etc........................has anyone here heard, seen or read enough about his play as a defender to elicit an educated opinion?

All the information I have found on Orr over the years has strictly been about his speed and offensive prowess.

Could he, night in and night out shut down the best forwards for every team? I don't care if he hit or fought or whatever. But how was he at actually defending? Did he even have to defend? Did he and the Bruins have the damn puck so much that they were always on the offensive when he was on the ice?

I have seen a multitude of All Time Defender lists and there seems to be a fair amount of debate.

I have seen Orr rated #1 on most.

I have seen Lidstrom rated #1 on all the lists that don't have Orr as #1.

I have also seen Lids ranked as low as 3, 4 and 5 behind Bourque, Shore and Harvey.

It seems to me that it could be said Orr was the greatest offensive dman ever (although Bourque's numbers trump everyone so if you like raw data like Ergoen does that might be a conflict for ya).

I would like to find out if anyone can say with any certainty that Orr would be included as one of the best, if not the best defensive defender of all time.

Is Mike Green a modern day (realistically speaking of course) version of Orr?

I don't have enough first hand knowledge of Orr but to be honest, I would be shocked if he was as good as Lidstrom defensively. Maybe he was. That's why I am asking.

Pail Coffey was most likely the most offensive d-man ever, although Bobby Orr was much better at it.

[Flamezfan 0]

I think they are both overstated. Both are prducts of their team system, without which would have been good players, but not great players. I would vote for neither of them.

[egroen 384]

Lidstrom being far superior than other defenseman has absolutely no bearing on Martin Brodeur as a goaltender.

First, Lidstrom has dominated his peers by a lot more than Brodeur has dominated his, in the same era.

That has a lot of bearing on the discussion.

Who were Lidstrom's peers over the past 20 years? Who were Brodeur's? You show me that there have been more elite dmen playing roughly the same time period as Lidstrom than there were goalies playing against Brodeur and then maybe their individual award counts might mean something.

Let's look at when Brodeur started winning his Vezinas:

His first Vezina was in 2003, with Hasek retired. Coincidence?

Belfour was 37 playing for Toronto and actually had a better save percentage (.922 vs. .914) than Brodeur did on a Cup-winning New Jersey team. Roy, at 37 also had a better save percentage (.920) and would retire that year.

From that point on he was playing against Turco, Kiprusoff, Luongo, Lundqvist, Nabokov, Vokoun -- not a one of whom has shown to be a Hall of Fame player.

Lidstrom has consistently beaten Stevens, Leetch, MacInnis, Pronger and Neidermayer, all of whom are sure-fire Hall of Famers, as well as borderline Hall of Famers Blake, Gonchar, Zubov and Chara. Early in his career he was also beating all-time greats Bourque and Chelios.

Who has had better competition? I think it is pretty obvious.

As for Gold Medals and Stanley Cups, those are team awards so don't be so ******* stupid as to think you can pawn them off as meaning something. The Cup MVP is more appropriate to the discussion.

Notice they were listed at the very bottom - and largely because you listed them in your in.itial post praising Brodeur.

Most of Brodeur's records are largely team accomplishments

Now how many no names have won the Vezina? In the past 20 years you have had flukes like Jim Carey, Olaf Kolzig, Jose Theodore.

Predominantly, the Vezina has been contested by Roy, Belfour, Hasek and Brodeur.

Although those goalies did have incredible years, that they were just not capable of sustaining. Much like Langway, Wilson, Blake and Carlyle whom have all won the Norris in the past 20 years.

Brodeur did not win his first Vezina until Hasek was retired and Roy and Belfour were 37.

Much stiffer competition than Lidstrom has faced.

Sure - Brodeur was losing to stiff competition. 3 Hall of Famers.

But Lidstrom has lost to, and won against Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, Stevens, Leetch, MacInnis, Pronger, Neidermayer and Murphy. 8 locks for the Hall of Fame.

Look at the past 20 years, you don't see the same level of competition, Lidstrom has owned the Norris. And the guys who have won it in between his wins, nobody would categorize as better than Nick.

But keep your head on straight and realize that that doesn't mean anything with regards to comparing him to Brodeur as being better.

You can't compare their individual awards. Well actually you can but you look ******* stupid doing it. They play different positions against different peer groups.

It seems perfectly rational to me, especially when viewed in context.

Simply being #1 amongst your peer group by a large margin doesn't indicate that the other guy is or is not the best amongst his peer group and perhaps even better, even if his margin of dominance is smaller. You have to factor in the level of competition for those accolades.

Level of competition leaves Lidstrom looking even better than he did without taking it into context.

Frankly, and I have already said it, Lids belongs in the top dman discussion, Brodeur in the top goalie discussion.

No and no. Wrong and wrong. Neither belongs in that discussion, or are you prepared to actually back your ridiculous opinion up instead of merely spouting off at the mouth.

I don't see a comparison between the 2. I don't think one can be called greater than the other for the flat fact that they play different positions.

I suppose a simpleton would find it impossible to compare two different positions in the same sport in the same era. You probably could not even demonstrate Steve Yzerman is better than Olaf Kolzig without sending your brain into a tizzy -- different positions right?

What I do see, is another example of an LGWer with skin about as thick as micro chamber paper, who can't handle a stupid poll result. The fact that you let it get to you, when the ******* poll is inherently flawed, shows you to be of thin skin and relatively low intelligence.

I enjoy ranking and comparing players, and unlike you, I am actually prepared to back up those opinions with stats and facts. I guess that is just lame, and it's much cooler to rant and rave about as well as ridicule someone who does enjoy it.

[VM1138 1,921]

Brodeur wasn't always at the top of his game. Lidstrom was, up until a few games last year.

That, to me, puts Brodeur at #2 and Lidstrom at the top spot.

[egroen 384]

On another note, can anybody with first hand knowledge of Bobby Orr, having seen him play in person, on TV, etc........................has anyone here heard, seen or read enough about his play as a defender to elicit an educated opinion?

All the information I have found on Orr over the years has strictly been about his speed and offensive prowess.

Could he, night in and night out shut down the best forwards for every team? I don't care if he hit or fought or whatever. But how was he at actually defending? Did he even have to defend? Did he and the Bruins have the damn puck so much that they were always on the offensive when he was on the ice?

I have seen a multitude of All Time Defender lists and there seems to be a fair amount of debate.

I have seen Orr rated #1 on most.

I have seen Lidstrom rated #1 on all the lists that don't have Orr as #1.

I have also seen Lids ranked as low as 3, 4 and 5 behind Bourque, Shore and Harvey.

It seems to me that it could be said Orr was the greatest offensive dman ever (although Bourque's numbers trump everyone so if you like raw data like Ergoen does that might be a conflict for ya).

I would like to find out if anyone can say with any certainty that Orr would be included as one of the best, if not the best defensive defender of all time.

Is Mike Green a modern day (realistically speaking of course) version of Orr?

I don't have enough first hand knowledge of Orr but to be honest, I would be shocked if he was as good as Lidstrom defensively. Maybe he was. That's why I am asking.

Orr is compared to Gretzky, Howe and Lemieux -- he is the greatest two-way player in the history of the NHL and many believe the greatest player ever. Now do you want to argue Lidstrom belongs in that discussion?

And you get off calling me a "homer"???

Go to any non-Red Wings forum and ask that question... it's a joke that no one even takes seriously. No one in the history of the NHL had a greater peak than Bobby Orr, he was amongst the best in the league defensively and won 8 Norris trophies in a row, 3 Hart's as a Defenseman, 2 Conn Smythe's and was the only Defenseman ever to win the scoring title (which he did twice). In 1970 he scored 120 points while the next player, a forward of course, only scored 99 points. In one year, he won the Norris, Hart, Art Ross and Conn Smythe.

You call me an idiot, retarded and stupid -- and you know jack-s*** about Bobby Orr?

Come on.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHo...st=ByName#photo

Edited August 7, 2009 by egroen

[egroen 384]

Do you work for Fox News? I mean seriously, this is like the ultimate spin job.

First you say that Brodeur isn't that great because he's a product of the system.

And then you say Hasek just HAS to be better (which I am not agreeing or disagreeing with) because he has more Vezinas.

And yet you make no allowances for the fact that a great player can have an advantage over another great player in winning awards when he plays on a lesser team.

It's the same reason why Hank or Pavel can't win an MVP when clearly, they are all around better players than anyone else in the league.

Quit your ******* spin job already. We don't all have turnip written on our ******* heads.

Where did I ever state Brodeur was a "product of the system"?

Where's the spin job?

Hasek has more Harts, Vezinas and 1st Team All Stars than Brodeur, regardless of teams.

If you want to tak about teams we can get into really comparing them.

Hasek won the Hart by some of the highest margins of all time - 92% and 78% of the first-place votes.

The last goalie to win a Hart was by less than 12% and you might have an argument Theodore was buoyed by the "good player on a bad team" argument -- not Hasek. Not if you watched him those years, he was flat-out dominant. There was no question who the best player in the world was those years, regardless of teams, and the voting obviously reflects that.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

One can easily compare Lidstrom and Brodeur. But you do not seem capable of such a thing. So f*** off with your ridiculous comments.

This is LGW, not The Biggest Loser. You're on the wrong board.

[egroen 384]

That's your opinion. And like I said, Brodeur has the numbers, records (some of them) and accolades to warrant being in the debate as best ever.

As I have already shown with Hasek - no he does not belong in that discussion.

Not once have I stated that beyond any doubt whatsoever, Brodeur is the greatest.

So you can take your "face it" comment and stick it up Egroen's sphincter.

Why are you even in this thread spraying feces all over the place? Either prepare an argument that Brodeur is comparable to the likes of Hasek, Plante, Roy, Sawchuk, Tretiak, Hall or get the f*** out. Put me on ignore if you can't stand my posts to such a degree that you can not resist reading and commenting on them. Please.

Seriously, what is going on around here? It's like the collective IQ of the board is going down faster than a Thai hooker with a 5 dolla bill being waved in her face.

Agreed... I noticed it started right at post # 23 in this thread.

Either add to the discussion in a respectful manner or get the hell out of it.

ps: let me just add that 'in their primes' means nothing to me so much as the breadth of their entire careers. Greatness in my mind includes longevity and the ability to do it at the highest level for the longest time.

So Ron Francis is a better player than Mario Lemieux? More points.

Osgood is better than Hasek? More wins.

Which is why Egroen's yawning commentary about Hasek playing at age 16 against a bunch of Czechs means absolutely nothing to me. Tretiak? Now what he accomplished I think would be more noteworthy. They beat the hell out of everyone, including the best the NHL had to offer. I'd take his international play into account long before I would Hasek's.

Once again you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Czechoslovakia was behind only the Soviet Union in the 80s..

But just in case Hasek lovers didn't eat their Cheerios today and think I am bagging on him. I am not. I think he too is amazing and every bit worthy of a debate over who the best goalie of all time is.

So then debate it, or get out.

Just don't barge in here screaming and yelling how anyone who thinks Lidstrom might be better than Broduer is a "******* homer/retard/idiot/whatever". Is it even possible for you to have respectable debate without throwing in every logical fallacy known to man?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

First, Lidstrom has dominated his peers by a lot more than Brodeur has dominated his, in the same era.

That has a lot of bearing on the discussion.

You're reaching big time. We're not talking about HOFers. We're talking about potentially the greatest ever at their positions.

Take a look at your list of defenders. Are any of them in the debate as greatest defender ever? Probably only Bourque is in that catergory. You're running off names like Niedermayer, Leetch, MacInnis, etc......NOT A SINGLE ONE WOULD BE CONSIDERED IN THE DISCUSSION AS GREATEST DMAN EVER. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

However, you keep bringing up Hasek, one of Brodeur's peers. Quite frankly he is on alot of folks top goalie of all time lists.

Let's look at when Brodeur started winning his Vezinas:

His first Vezina was in 2003, with Hasek retired. Coincidence?

Belfour was 37 playing for Toronto and actually had a better save percentage (.922 vs. .914) than Brodeur did on a Cup-winning New Jersey team. Roy, at 37 also had a better save percentage (.920) and would retire that year.

So essentially this entire paragraph is merely a statistic that Brodeur didn't have the best save percentage that year. Well s***, that's as conclusive as anything I have ever seen in my life detective. I never realized the Vezina was awarded merely by save percentage or that it should have been awarded by save percentage.

This is exactly the type of spin job you seem to rely on these days. Like your little blurb about his save percentage that year is the be all end all of who should've won the Vezina.

From that point on he was playing against Turco, Kiprusoff, Luongo, Lundqvist, Nabokov, Vokoun -- not a one of whom has shown to be a Hall of Fame player.

Lidstrom has consistently beaten Stevens, Leetch, MacInnis, Pronger and Neidermayer, all of whom are sure-fire Hall of Famers, as well as borderline Hall of Famers Blake, Gonchar, Zubov and Chara. Early in his career he was also beating all-time greats Bourque and Chelios.

The only guy he competed against worthy of best all time consideration.

You do recall we're talking about best ever. Not merely great but best ever.

Who has had better competition? I think it is pretty obvious.

Notice they were listed at the very bottom - and largely because you listed them in your in.itial post praising Brodeur.

Most of Brodeur's records are largely team accomplishments

Although those goalies did have incredible years, that they were just not capable of sustaining. Much like Langway, Wilson, Blake and Carlyle whom have all won the Norris in the past 20 years.

Brodeur did not win his first Vezina until Hasek was retired and Roy and Belfour were 37.

Thank you for mentioning Roy. Another goalie arguably the best ever that Brodeur had to compete against. From what I see, this point of yours could show that Roy is indeed better than Brodeur. But what it doesn't show me is that Lidstrom is better than Broduer. I don't see how you're making that giant leap of logic.

You're basically proving my point about Brodeur having stiffer competition by mentioning Hasek and Roy. Who exactly were the Hasek and Roy that Lidstrom had to face for most of his career?

Sure - Brodeur was losing to stiff competition. 3 Hall of Famers.

But Lidstrom has lost to, and won against Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, Stevens, Leetch, MacInnis, Pronger, Neidermayer and Murphy. 8 locks for the Hall of Fame.

And AGAIN, NONE WORTHY OF DISCUSSION OF GREATEST EVER AT THE POSITION.

It seems perfectly rational to me, especially when viewed in context.

Yeah, and crazy people don't know they're ******* crazy so what do you want? A lollipop or something?

Level of competition leaves Lidstrom looking even better than he did without taking it into context.

Not really, when you take out all the guys who don't belong in the discussion. Which would be everyone but Bourque.

No and no. Wrong and wrong. Neither belongs in that discussion, or are you prepared to actually back your ridiculous opinion up instead of merely spouting off at the mouth.

We'll see, upon their retirements if they are regarded as merely "good" or "great" players or something even more. I will admit I'm somewhat confused by the fact that you'll slam Lidstrom and give him zero credit for even being in the top 5 all time (WOW!) yet you praise the s*** out of him in regards to Brodeur? I don't really follow what you're trying to do. Talking out of both sides of your mouth or something? Which must be hard when your head is still stuck up your ass.

I suppose a simpleton would find it impossible to compare two different positions in the same sport in the same era. You probably could not even demonstrate Steve Yzerman is better than Olaf Kolzig without sending your brain into a tizzy -- different positions right?

Yes, because comparing a 6 time Norris winner and 3 time Vezina winner is akin to comparing Yzerman one of the greatest talents ever to play and an above average goalie in Kolzig. This is a ridiculously extreme example only put forth by you because you lack the wit to come up with something better. You can keep trying though. But you'll have to try much much harder.

I enjoy ranking and comparing players, and unlike you, I am actually prepared to back up those opinions with stats and facts. I guess that is just lame, and it's much cooler to rant and rave about as well as ridicule someone who does enjoy it.

Yes, because I haven't stated a single opinion, stat or fact. The notion that your opinions are any better (or worse) because you've dug up some senseless stats (like Brodeur's save percentage during 1 season vs Roy and Belfour)

I'm glad you enjoy ranking players. I like to rank them too. I do it every year when I play fantasy hockey.

What I find difficult to do is compare 2 of the greatest at their respective positions and claim one is better than the other. I find many faults with the notion that it can be done.

I don't think it's due to any lack of intelligence. Moreso, it's probably due to the notion that I am a tad bit more grounded in reality than some.

But please continue. I have never asked you to stop doing what you're doing. I just think you're a moron. How's that for an opinion?

As for Bobby Orr, I just haven't heard very much about him being called one of the greatest shut down defenders of all time. Lots of stuff about his offensive game. Not so much about his defensive game. I'll keep looking though. What I have read pretty much boasts only of his offensive and skating ability with very rarely anything said about his true ability to be an elite defender.