Hfboards History of Hockey Panelist Top 100

[egroen 384]

The History of Hockey forum at Hfbords is updating the top 100....

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=669817

I personally find this to be the most informative, un-biased and accurate listing of hockey greats. The list is compiled from 36 voters.

Already we see some familiar Red Wings at the top of the list:

#3 Gordie Howe

#12 Dominik Hasek

#16 Red Kelly

#17 Nicklas Lidstrom

Elgible Red Wings for the next vote are Terry Sawchuk, Ted Lindsay and Steve Yzerman.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=671498

Edited August 11, 2009 by egroen

[eva unit zero 271]

The suggestion that Yzerman is outside the top 20 automatically invalidates the list...as he has dominated the league as much as pretty much anyone in league history for most of his career despite having to contend with Gretzky and Lemieux for his entire prime during their primes. Yzerman is at minimum a top 10 or 15 player in NHL history; ranking him lower shows a serious lack of hockey history knowledge.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Wow, Yzerman ranked 36? Tretiak ranked 52? The only part I'm in slight agreement with is the top 4, but of course, that holds a debate. This list has no credibility at all. This list is also flooded with guys who played well before the first half of the 1900's... What's up with that?

Edited August 11, 2009 by BeeRYCE

[T-Ruff 47]

Lidstrom jumps from 26 to 17 in the new list...

Hasek ahead of Roy in both, ahead of Plante in the new list to make him the highest ranked goalie... nice

[egroen 384]

The suggestion that Yzerman is outside the top 20 automatically invalidates the list...as he has dominated the league as much as pretty much anyone in league history for most of his career despite having to contend with Gretzky and Lemieux for his entire prime during their primes. Yzerman is at minimum a top 10 or 15 player in NHL history; ranking him lower shows a serious lack of hockey history knowledge.

That's just the thing -- Yzerman has not dominated, and certainly not in the way of the players in the top 20.

Points -- Top 10 finishes in the league

1988-89 NHL 155 (3)

1989-90 NHL 127 (3)

1990-91 NHL 108 (7)

1991-92 NHL 103 (7)

1992-93 NHL 137 (4)

1999-00 NHL 79 (10)

Only 6 seasons in the top 10, and only 1 after he became a top Selke contender.

He is dwarfed by the players in the top 20.

Removing Gretzky and Lemieux bumps him up a few places, but we are still talking about a single season where he wins the Art Ross (1989), eliminating those two.

That is not "domination".

Now is the time to register and state your case, as I have a feeling Yzerman will not make it into the top 30.

Edited August 11, 2009 by egroen

[egroen 384]

Wow, Yzerman ranked 36? Tretiak ranked 52? The only part I'm in slight agreement with is the top 4, but of course, that holds a debate. This list has no credibility at all. This list is also flooded with guys who played well before the first half of the 1900's... What's up with that?

Because the NHL and the professional sport of hockey has been around for a while... believe it or not.

If you find it "ridiculous" to rank similarly two players who respectively dominated their peers by similar margin, but from different eras (Howe vs. Lemieux, for example), then obviously these lists are not for you.

If you are interested in understanding why the players are ranked as they are, dig into the voting round discussions... I find they are backed up with tons of informative analysis.

Edited August 11, 2009 by egroen

[egroen 384]

Lidstrom jumps from 26 to 17 in the new list...

Hasek ahead of Roy in both, ahead of Plante in the new list to make him the highest ranked goalie... nice

I'd like to think I helped that -- though I did not register to vote.

[Guest ZetterbergFourty]

HFboards is garbage.

[Doc Holiday 0]

HFboards posters probably know more about other players (those NOT on the Red Wings) than the majority of us.

If you don't agree, that's fine. But it isn't a joke just because you say so.

[Guest ZetterbergFourty]

Every HFBoards poster is def. fit to be the NHL commish, didnt you know that?

[egroen 384]

The general boards are a sea of chaos, and don't post in another teams' forum if you don't plan on getting warned/banned but the history of hockey forum is tip-top.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

This list sucks.

How can "Rocket" Richard be behind Jean Beliveau?

Also, where the hell is Mark Messier?

[numberthirtynine 0]

Lidstrom is way too low. Goalies are about right. Rest is just fluff. These lists always are. Too many opiniosn based on everything except true talent.

Hasek finally gets proper credit from somewhere for being the best goalie to ever live.

Edited August 11, 2009 by numberthirtynine

[egroen 384]

This list sucks.

How can "Rocket" Richard be behind Jean Beliveau?

Largely based on Hart voting from the time.

Richard fell a few places from the previous list.

Also, where the hell is Mark Messier?

Up for voting right now (21-30).

[egroen 384]

Lidstrom is way too low. Goalies are about right. Rest is just fluff. These lists always are. Too many opiniosn based on everything except true talent.

Hasek finally gets proper credit from somewhere for being the best goalie to ever live.

He moved up a ton from the last list -- which I was quite happy to see.

A list based on true talent and not actual accomplishments would be interesting, but almost entirely subjective.

[numberthirtynine 0]

Far too often ew attribute team accomplishments to a single player. And single player accomplishments can usually be influenced heavily by supporting cast. It`s very common considering not many people know how to truly judge talent without help from someone else or by looking at a stat sheet.

But at least they got Hasek right.

[eva unit zero 271]

That's just the thing -- Yzerman has not dominated, and certainly not in the way of the players in the top 20.

Points -- Top 10 finishes in the league

1988-89 NHL 155 (3)

1989-90 NHL 127 (3)

1990-91 NHL 108 (7)

1991-92 NHL 103 (7)

1992-93 NHL 137 (4)

1999-00 NHL 79 (10)

Only 6 seasons in the top 10, and only 1 after he became a top Selke contender.

He is dwarfed by the players in the top 20.

Removing Gretzky and Lemieux bumps him up a few places, but we are still talking about a single season where he wins the Art Ross (1989), eliminating those two.

That is not "domination".

Now is the time to register and state your case, as I have a feeling Yzerman will not make it into the top 30.

Yzerman was among the league's top scoring centers for a full decade. He also was a top Selke contender for another decade. But for the decade he was a top scorer, he was still among the league's better defensive forwards, as he was getting Selke votes every year or almost every year, and is the only player to ever post 150+ points AND gain any 1st-place Selke votes.

Simply removing Gretzky and Lemieux doesn't give Yzerman more than one Ross...but it probably gives him a few Harts and a few 1st and 2nd team All-Star selections. No, you can't simply place a "What if" scenario to rank players...but it's pretty hard to compare players from other eras who didn't play against those two based on the accolades they earned against the players who did.

How many Harts and Rosses did Gretzky and Lemieux win between them from 1984 to 1996? Combined, they won 12 Art Ross trophies and 8 Hart trophies in 13 seasons, with Jaromir Jagr in 1995 being the only exception for the Art Ross and Mark Messier (1990,1992), Brett Hull (1991), Sergei Fedorov (1994), and Eric Lindros (1995) being the exceptions for the Hart.

The thing is...if you take away Gretzky and Lemieux, then Yzerman wins the Hart in 1989. As he would then be only two points shy of the league lead in points behind Messier in 1990 and the reigning Hart winner on a weaker team, he might very well win the Hart in 1990 as well.

I guess it's like Andy Bathgate. Bathgate played RW opposite Gordie Howe and Maurice Richard, yet was still considered one of the top few players in the league every year. This is what must be considered with Yzerman; he was always among the best players in the league, but because of who he was ranked against, he very rarely received the accolades. Had Yzerman had the exact same career but done it as a left winger, he would probably have been named a postseason All-Star in the following years:

1st team All-Star: 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1993, and 2000.

2nd team All-Star: 1987, 1992, 1996, and 1998.

That's six first-team selections and four second-team selections, for a total of ten in 22 seasons. Given his point totals, two-way play, and the other intangibles and awards won even with Gretzky and Lemieux around...that's pretty damn good. Yzerman was always considered among the top few players in the league from around 1987 to around 2002. Being a top player in the league longer than most of these guys' careers lasted, and being one of the better players at his position at both ends of the ice for most of that span makes him dominant.

[eva unit zero 271]

This list sucks.

How can "Rocket" Richard be behind Jean Beliveau?

Also, where the hell is Mark Messier?

Yeah, I mean a player who scored 50 goals in 50 games, but wasn't even the most valuable player on his LINE that season? Richard was great...but he is very overrated because of things like the 50 in 50. Beliveau ahead of Richard is correct.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Always hate these lists because they are always very NHL-focused... may as well do away with the pretension and call it the Top 100 NHLers plus Tretiak and Kharlamov... wait... there were other Russians too?

Also, tired of people rating Bourque so high. Ahead of Lidstrom? Only in points.

[egroen 384]

Always hate these lists because they are always very NHL-focused... may as well do away with the pretension and call it the Top 100 NHLers plus Tretiak and Kharlamov... wait... there were other Russians too?

Also, tired of people rating Bourque so high. Ahead of Lidstrom? Only in points.

But did you watch Bourque in the 80s and 90s? He was only a hair below Lidstrom defensively... and 13 1st Team All-Stars selections (6 2nd Team All-Star selections), against the best competition for defense the league has ever seen (Chelios, Coffey, Stevens, Potvin, Robinson, Langway, Salming, Murphy, Howe, MacInnis, Leetch, Lidstrom -- just about all Hall-of-Famers) -- is a feat bested by only Gordie Howe. Bourque was great defensively.

This list actually rates international players better than any I have seen.

[egroen 384]

Yeah, I mean a player who scored 50 goals in 50 games, but wasn't even the most valuable player on his LINE that season? Richard was great...but he is very overrated because of things like the 50 in 50. Beliveau ahead of Richard is correct.

I agree - Richard's 50 in 50, while an incredible feat, was also done in a year the NHL was probably at its most watered-down ever (1945 -- WW2).

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

But did you watch Bourque in the 80s and 90s? He was only a hair below Lidstrom defensively... and 13 1st Team All-Stars selections (6 2nd Team All-Star selections), against the best competition for defense the league has ever seen (Chelios, Coffey, Stevens, Potvin, Robinson, Langway, Salming, Murphy, Howe, MacInnis, Leetch, Lidstrom -- just about all Hall-of-Famers) -- is a feat bested by only Gordie Howe. Bourque was great defensively.

This list actually rates international players better than any I have seen.

It's not a bad list, I just cringe whenever I see these lists naming the best "ever" because I go into it knowing there will be an inherent NHL bias, much like a Russian list would devalue Canadian players...

and I'm 100% aware of every one of Bourques accomplishments (I was living in Boston in the mid 80s and got to see him play regularly)... I still cannot fathom placing him above Lidstrom... The cups, Norris trophies (despite only being a difference of 1), conn smythe, the gold medal, and general personal observations place Lidstrom a great deal above Bourque IMO... Offensively I don't put them far apart either because Bourque had more time in the free-flying 80s and Lidstrom spent his prime in the suffocating trapping days and was still near tops of the defensive points every season.

[egroen 384]

Yzerman was among the league's top scoring centers for a full decade. He also was a top Selke contender for another decade. But for the decade he was a top scorer, he was still among the league's better defensive forwards, as he was getting Selke votes every year or almost every year, and is the only player to ever post 150+ points AND gain any 1st-place Selke votes.

Simply removing Gretzky and Lemieux doesn't give Yzerman more than one Ross...but it probably gives him a few Harts and a few 1st and 2nd team All-Star selections. No, you can't simply place a "What if" scenario to rank players...but it's pretty hard to compare players from other eras who didn't play against those two based on the accolades they earned against the players who did.

How many Harts and Rosses did Gretzky and Lemieux win between them from 1984 to 1996? Combined, they won 12 Art Ross trophies and 8 Hart trophies in 13 seasons, with Jaromir Jagr in 1995 being the only exception for the Art Ross and Mark Messier (1990,1992), Brett Hull (1991), Sergei Fedorov (1994), and Eric Lindros (1995) being the exceptions for the Hart.

The thing is...if you take away Gretzky and Lemieux, then Yzerman wins the Hart in 1989. As he would then be only two points shy of the league lead in points behind Messier in 1990 and the reigning Hart winner on a weaker team, he might very well win the Hart in 1990 as well.

I guess it's like Andy Bathgate. Bathgate played RW opposite Gordie Howe and Maurice Richard, yet was still considered one of the top few players in the league every year. This is what must be considered with Yzerman; he was always among the best players in the league, but because of who he was ranked against, he very rarely received the accolades. Had Yzerman had the exact same career but done it as a left winger, he would probably have been named a postseason All-Star in the following years:

1st team All-Star: 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1993, and 2000.

2nd team All-Star: 1987, 1992, 1996, and 1998.

That's six first-team selections and four second-team selections, for a total of ten in 22 seasons. Given his point totals, two-way play, and the other intangibles and awards won even with Gretzky and Lemieux around...that's pretty damn good. Yzerman was always considered among the top few players in the league from around 1987 to around 2002. Being a top player in the league longer than most of these guys' careers lasted, and being one of the better players at his position at both ends of the ice for most of that span makes him dominant.

Some very good points -- though just about any forward would do a heck of a lot better in Team All-Star voting if you made them into a left-winger (weakest overall position historically in the NHL).

Non-voters are welcome to post in the voting threads, and it would be nice to see Yzerman get some more love.

The 1st place vote for Selke in 1989 is a bit dubious at best (not a single other vote) - though I am of the opinion Yzerman is largely underrated defensively pre-Bowman. He used to be double-shifted on a checking line against other teams' top lines and was a regular on the penalty kill even in the 80s.

Here is a pretty exhaustive Yzerman - Sakic comparison: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=583598

Edited August 12, 2009 by egroen

[egroen 384]

It's not a bad list, I just cringe whenever I see these lists naming the best "ever" because I go into it knowing there will be an inherent NHL bias, much like a Russian list would devalue Canadian players...

and I'm 100% aware of every one of Bourques accomplishments (I was living in Boston in the mid 80s and got to see him play regularly)... I still cannot fathom placing him above Lidstrom... The cups, Norris trophies (despite only being a difference of 1), conn smythe, the gold medal, and general personal observations place Lidstrom a great deal above Bourque IMO... Offensively I don't put them far apart either because Bourque had more time in the free-flying 80s and Lidstrom spent his prime in the suffocating trapping days and was still near tops of the defensive points every season.

I actually did a comparison of Lidstrom and Bourque (and Potvin) offensively, adjusted for era to 6 GPG.

My point was that Lidstrom was not so far of Bourque offensively, though I would still have a hard time putting him ahead (Bourque's longevity and sheer amount of years at the top of the league is unbelievable):

Edited August 12, 2009 by egroen

[eva unit zero 271]

Some very good points -- though just about any forward would do a heck of a lot better in Team All-Star voting if you made them into a left-winger (weakest overall position historically in the NHL).

Non-voters are welcome to post in the voting threads, and it would be nice to see Yzerman get some more love.

The 1st place vote for Selke in 1989 is a bit dubious at best (not a single other vote) - though I am of the opinion Yzerman is largely underrated defensively pre-Bowman. He used to be double-shifted on a checking line against other teams' top lines and was a regular on the penalty kill even in the 80s.

Here is a pretty exhaustive Yzerman - Sakic comparison: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=583598

I doubt any other player from 1984-2006 would have seen a stretch with seven in a row and ten of 14 years on the postseason All-Star team, with six first-team selections, though. It's rare to even see that many total in a 22-year career, at ANY position.