Best defensemen in the NHL

[eva unit zero 271]

This is spun off of the Toews thread to provide a separate thread to discuss defensemen in.

Re-posting my top-15 post:

How I would rank the NHL's top 15 defensemen, based on last season, is:

1) Lidstrom

2) Keith

3) Chara

4) Niedermayer

5) Weber

6) Boyle

7) Zubov

8) Markov

9) Bouwmeester

10) Wideman

11) Phaneuf

12) Green

13) Pronger

14) Rafalski

15) Kaberle

The thing is, Keith is an extremely solid defensive defenseman with offensive skill, and he has a physical game. Admittedly, he's not perfect, but IMHO he outplayed the rest of these guys (sans Nick) and most of these guys either have yet to reach the level Keith displayed or have been below it and declining for years now. A healthy Zubov, Niedermayer, or Pronger who was in prime form would have beaten Keith out. Chara is the only defenseman on the list who really challenged Keith for the second slot, and his tendency to just happen to pick up points when he did very little to actually produce the offensive play was a disadvantage when compared to Keith, who is a major factor in a lot of Chicago's offensive rushes and their power play setup. Chara is an excellent defensive defenseman, but he's not that much better defensively than Keith to offset the offensive advantage that Keith holds.

[skacore 2]

This is spun off of the Toews thread to provide a separate thread to discuss defensemen in.

Re-posting my top-15 post:

How I would rank the NHL's top 15 defensemen, based on last season, is:

1) Lidstrom

2) Keith

3) Chara

4) Niedermayer

5) Weber

6) Boyle

7) Zubov

8) Markov

9) Bouwmeester

10) Wideman

11) Phaneuf

12) Green

13) Pronger

14) Rafalski

15) Kaberle

The thing is, Keith is an extremely solid defensive defenseman with offensive skill, and he has a physical game. Admittedly, he's not perfect, but IMHO he outplayed the rest of these guys (sans Nick) and most of these guys either have yet to reach the level Keith displayed or have been below it and declining for years now. A healthy Zubov, Niedermayer, or Pronger who was in prime form would have beaten Keith out. Chara is the only defenseman on the list who really challenged Keith for the second slot, and his tendency to just happen to pick up points when he did very little to actually produce the offensive play was a disadvantage when compared to Keith, who is a major factor in a lot of Chicago's offensive rushes and their power play setup. Chara is an excellent defensive defenseman, but he's not that much better defensively than Keith to offset the offensive advantage that Keith holds.

Chara may not be fancy but he sure gets it done at both ends of the ice. You don't get 19 goals by accident... Chara is just more valuable than Keith in all aspects really, he gets it done defensively, offensively, is one of the most intimidating figures in the league, stands up for team mates... Keith is a great player and he's only going to get better but I think you (and only you) are really overrating him.

And I think a year in Calgary is all Bouwmeester needs before people realize he is probably a top 5 defenseman in the league and I'd bank on him being a Norris nominee

[hockey23 79]

Duncan Keith

GP G A P +/-

17 0 6 6 1

Chris Pronger

GP G A P +/-

13 2 8 10 4

Pornger was much better when it counted. I think he was the best defenseman the wings faced in the playoffs. Keith was nothing special in the WCF. I think he's a good young defenceman who may develop into a great defenceman, but 2nd overall is wayyyy overrated.

[Doggy 130]

Provocative as always, eva.

[eva unit zero 271]

Chara may not be fancy but he sure gets it done at both ends of the ice. You don't get 19 goals by accident... Chara is just more valuable than Keith in all aspects really, he gets it done defensively, offensively, is one of the most intimidating figures in the league, stands up for team mates... Keith is a great player and he's only going to get better but I think you (and only you) are really overrating him.

And I think a year in Calgary is all Bouwmeester needs before people realize he is probably a top 5 defenseman in the league and I'd bank on him being a Norris nominee

Keith led all defensemen in even strength assists with 27 and tied for second in even strength points with 32, behind Mike Green's 34. Chara only had 20 even strength points (tied for 33rd, behind Jeff Finger's 21 and Mike Commodore's 22). Chara had 28 PP points from playing nearly four minutes per game on the PP, ranking him tied for 8th with Rafalski, Pronger, and Timonen. Pronger and Timonen played more PP time, Rafalski less. Boston's power play was run by Marc Savard, and while Chara scored a bunch of PP goals by releasing his powerful shot, he only rarely set up teammates and his PP assists are mostly secondary assists. Keith scored fewer points on the PP, primarily because Chicago's PP was run by PP specialist Brian Campbell.

Keith also had 50 takeaways to 40 giveaways, while Chara had 28 takeaways to 58 giveaways. Since those stats are used so often on LGW to prove why Datsyuk is the deserving Selke winner, I figured they'd make a great point in the discussion of Keith vs Chara. Size isn't everything when it comes to defense for defensemen, you know.

On the subject of Bouwmeester, I think he will do well in Calgary, and his scoring numbers should increase, but he likely won't get a Norris nomination as they won't increase enough for the point-happy voters to think "he's one of the top defensemen in the league" the way they tend to.

[Guest Shoreline]

Phaneuf, as usual, is highly underestimated. Probably not flashy enough or appears enough on fantasy top 3's.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Phaneuf, as usual, is highly underestimated. Probably not flashy enough or appears enough on fantasy top 3's.

Agreed. Phaneuf isn't as great as Calgary fans say he is or his rookie season made it look like he was, but he's not chopped liver and he's got tons of raw talent. Once he nails down the "where do be and what to do next" part of being a top tier d-man (the thing Lidstrom does better than anyone in NHL history) he'll be dynamite.

Of course the "monster" tag will never be earned, since that tag is something you apply to child molesters, not hockey players who hit hard (someone tell this to Pierre).

[Guest mindfly]

My list is:

Lidstrom (maybe i wear the red googles this time.. oh well)

Chara (got the norris for a reason)

Pronger (just a powerhouse wins ever battle in the corners)

Niedermayer (still got IT)

Bouwmeester (up and coming, will be one of the best in his prime)

Never understood the hype about Keith tbh

Edited August 13, 2009 by mindfly

[dat's sick 1,002]

Lidstrom

Ericsson

Rafalski

Kronwall

Stuart

Edited August 13, 2009 by dat's sick

[BeeRYCE 2]

All around:

1. Lidstrom

2. Chara

3. Bouwmeester

4. Niedermayer

5. Phaneuf

6. Markov

7. Pronger

8. Zubov

9. Keith

10. Weber

11. Green

12. Kaberle

13. Rafalski

14. Boyle

15. KRONWALL

Boyle is ranked so low because I'm not too sold on him, never really was... Always struck me as one dimensional d-man strictly for the PP. Number 15 was a toss up between Wideman and Kronwall, but realistically, Kronner has proven more. I can't wait until the future though... I mean watch out for Bogosian, Doughty, Hedman, Johnson(s), Coburn, Burns (had an off season), Marc Staal, and RYAN ELLIS ... Oh maybe Jonathan Ericsson too, why not?

Not to say all these guys will have top 15 status, but they will play a significant impact in the NHL, and some will reach that elite status. Overall, I'm pretty pumped on how bright the future looks for defensemen in the NHL.

Edited August 13, 2009 by BeeRYCE

[egroen 384]

I agree that Keith is seriously underrated around the league - though he really did not impress in the playoffs and was largely outplayed by Seabrook. It is not unusual for a player to have a less-than-stellar first playoff experience so it does not bring him down in my mind too much yet.

I do think Chicago will be a legitimate challenge this year - one year of post-season experience does wonders for young players.

[eva unit zero 271]

Part of it in my mind, relating to guys like Pronger and Chara, is that IMHO they are both hugely overrated in regards to their defensive play. Yes, they are good defensively. But their size and physical play puts people in a state of "this guy is the best defensive defenseman I have ever seen!" when Chara or Pronger makes a big hit to break up a play instead of simply tying up a player's stick. Both of those guys make far more mistakes defensively than people acknowledge. Phaneuf is another defenseman with this sort of "advantage" in terms of perception. I don't think Phaneuf has really had a season in his NHL career where he's been that much better than average defensively.

Keith is very solid defensively, even if he's less of a physical monstrosity that Chara or Pronger he, at least from what I have seen, has been very effective in his own end. He also has been much more involved in the offense than those two, which makes the fact that he was only a few points behind the two of them despite playing considerably less time on the PP due to Campbell's presence, as well as the fact that Keith finished second overall among defensemen in even-strength scoring with 32 points and played less than Pronger or Chara at ES, who scored 19 and 20 respectively.

Markov, OTOH, is underrated defensively. A lot of people consider him a liability defensively when honestly, he's pretty reliable in his own end. Boyle is a bit underrated defensively as well.

Of course they are all better defensively than Souray, which is what really matters.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Part of it in my mind, relating to guys like Pronger and Chara, is that IMHO they are both hugely overrated in regards to their defensive play. Yes, they are good defensively. But their size and physical play puts people in a state of "this guy is the best defensive defenseman I have ever seen!" when Chara or Pronger makes a big hit to break up a play instead of simply tying up a player's stick. Both of those guys make far more mistakes defensively than people acknowledge. Phaneuf is another defenseman with this sort of "advantage" in terms of perception. I don't think Phaneuf has really had a season in his NHL career where he's been that much better than average defensively.

Keith is very solid defensively, even if he's less of a physical monstrosity that Chara or Pronger he, at least from what I have seen, has been very effective in his own end. He also has been much more involved in the offense than those two, which makes the fact that he was only a few points behind the two of them despite playing considerably less time on the PP due to Campbell's presence, as well as the fact that Keith finished second overall among defensemen in even-strength scoring with 32 points and played less than Pronger or Chara at ES, who scored 19 and 20 respectively.

Markov, OTOH, is underrated defensively. A lot of people consider him a liability defensively when honestly, he's pretty reliable in his own end. Boyle is a bit underrated defensively as well.

Of course they are all better defensively than Souray, which is what really matters.

I'd put Keith below Chara.

It's all good to merely regurgitate stats but there are some things that cannot be quantified.

Like Chara's wingspan, stick length and the amount of ice he covers. Whereas I don't necessarily agree with your assessment that people look at big dmen and just scream, oh my god they are great (although some simpletons may think that way).......I think you are not factoring in the amount of plays that Chara breaks up or the options he takes away due to his size. For instance on takeaways. Perhaps Chara's takeaway number is not as great because people don't challenge his side as often. Perhaps they tend to work the play away from Chara. I don't know alot of players who think they can attack Chara head on and be successful. That in and of itself should be factored in.

My list would be

Lidstrom

Chara

and that's as far as I care to go.

[VM1138 1,921]

This is spun off of the Toews thread to provide a separate thread to discuss defensemen in.

Re-posting my top-15 post:

How I would rank the NHL's top 15 defensemen, based on last season, is:

1) Lidstrom

2) Keith

3) Chara

4) Niedermayer

5) Weber

6) Boyle

7) Zubov

8) Markov

9) Bouwmeester

10) Wideman

11) Phaneuf

12) Green

13) Pronger

14) Rafalski

15) Kaberle

The thing is, Keith is an extremely solid defensive defenseman with offensive skill, and he has a physical game. Admittedly, he's not perfect, but IMHO he outplayed the rest of these guys (sans Nick) and most of these guys either have yet to reach the level Keith displayed or have been below it and declining for years now. A healthy Zubov, Niedermayer, or Pronger who was in prime form would have beaten Keith out. Chara is the only defenseman on the list who really challenged Keith for the second slot, and his tendency to just happen to pick up points when he did very little to actually produce the offensive play was a disadvantage when compared to Keith, who is a major factor in a lot of Chicago's offensive rushes and their power play setup. Chara is an excellent defensive defenseman, but he's not that much better defensively than Keith to offset the offensive advantage that Keith holds.

I'm not an expert on all of these guys, but my "gut rankings" from what I've seen watching them play, I'd agree overall with your list. Except I'd put Keith lower, Pronger, Rafalski, and Phaneuf much higher.

[egroen 384]

Phaneuf went from vastly overrated as a defenseman to vastly underrated in the course of one year.

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Defensively speaking, Rafalski shouldn't be in the top 15.

[stevieisthebest 80]

1. Hall Gill

[Doggy 130]

Defensively speaking, Rafalski shouldn't be in the top 15.

It's not defensively speaking though. Otherwise Green wouldn't be in the top 50.

[eva unit zero 271]

Defensively speaking, Rafalski shouldn't be in the top 15.

If it was based simply on defensive ability, this list would look considerably different. At least a third of those guys would be gone, probably closer to half the list, and it would likely be shuffled around in order as well.

Included in their place would be guys like Mattias Ohlund who don't put up a ton of points but are truly great in their own end.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Pronger is the 13th best defenseman in the NHL?

Behind Wideman, Markov, Weber and Zubov (who isn't even playing in the league anymore )

We get it eva, you hate Pronger because he always pushed around your boy Hudler. I never figured you'd let that influence your ranking system.

Edited August 13, 2009 by GMRwings1983

[eva unit zero 271]

Phaneuf went from vastly overrated as a defenseman to vastly underrated in the course of one year.

If you consider Phaneuf 'vastly underrated' at #11, I wonder what your list looks like overall. He had the worst offensive season of his career, and of the guys who finished ahead of him in scoring Green and Souray are considerably worse defensively, and of the remainder it's debatable between him and Rafalski, Kronwall, Streit, and Campbell. The only players who I ranked ahead of him who finished behind him were Bouwmeester, Keith, and Zubov. All three are considerably better defensively than Phaneuf, and Zubov would have outscored him with a healthy season anyway. Had Phaneuf repeated his 60-point performance from 07-08, he might be in that 6-10 range. But he didn't.

Want to know something? If you adjust the top-30 scoring defensemen to the same ES, PP, and SH time on ice as far as their goals and assists, and therefore points, the top fifteen in defense scoring looks as such:

1) Mike Green, WSH 32-44-76

2) Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 17-47-64

2) Brian Rafalski, DET 11-53-64

4) Niklas Kronwall, DET 8-54-62

5) Andrei Markov, MTL 12-49-61

6) Mark Streit, NYI 17-40-57-57

6) Dennis Wideman, BOS 15-42-57

6) Scott Niedermayer, ANA 14-43-57

6) Cam Barker, CHI 9-48-57

10) Dan Boyle, SJ 15-41-56

11) Tom Gilbert, EDM 6-48-54

12) Shea Weber, NSH 23-30-53

13) Sheldon Souray, EDM 22-30-52

14) Zdeno Chara, BOS 20-31-51

14) Duncan Keith, CHI 9-42-51

14) Kevin Bieksa, VAN 13-38-51

I adjusted to 1450 ES mins, and 325 at ES and PP; as that is approximately what the average #1 defenseman would play.

It's interesting that Keith and Chara come out to the same number. Pronger, who played a ton, dropped to 44 points. Phaneuf finished last of the players adjusted, due to the fact he led all defensemen with 445 minutes played on the power play; even though he only scored 21 PP points, adjusted down to 15-again the worst number. Phaneuf, Wideman, Brian Campbell, and Weber played between 1450 and 1470 minutes at even strength, so their "adjusted" stats actually didn't get changed at even strength. Only Green (40), Rafalski, Weber, and Souray (32 each) rank ahead of Keith (31) in adjusted ES points. Campbell, who ate up all the PP time on the Hawks, adjusted out to 50 points. He also only ended up with 22 adjusted PP points compared to Keith's adjusted 19, a huge closing of the gap between them before adjustment.

[eva unit zero 271]

Pronger is the 13th best defenseman in the NHL?

Behind Wideman, Markov, Weber and Zubov (who isn't even playing in the league anymore )

We get it eva, you hate Pronger because he always pushed around your boy Hudler. I never figured you'd let that influence your ranking system.

Is it really possible for you to post without throwing around personal insults that are completely unrelated to the topic? If not, please don't post. I would like to have a civil discussion, thank you.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Is it really possible for you to post without throwing around personal insults that are completely unrelated to the topic? If not, please don't post. I would like to have a civil discussion, thank you.

Where did I insult you in that post? Because I suggested that you hate Pronger?

Some insult you found to complain about.

And I did post something "civil" in my post, namely the idea that Pronger is a better 2 way defenseman than Markov, Zubov, Weber or Wideman. A couple of those guys have had several decent seasons, but that doesn't put them ahead of Pronger. Also, Zubov is no longer in the NHL.

Ask most players around the league where Pronger ranks, and he'll be higher than 13th on everyone's list.

Now I hope that you've gotten over my terrible "insult" towards you, and will respond to my "civil" post.

[egroen 384]

If you consider Phaneuf 'vastly underrated' at #11, I wonder what your list looks like overall. He had the worst offensive season of his career, and of the guys who finished ahead of him in scoring Green and Souray are considerably worse defensively, and of the remainder it's debatable between him and Rafalski, Kronwall, Streit, and Campbell. The only players who I ranked ahead of him who finished behind him were Bouwmeester, Keith, and Zubov. All three are considerably better defensively than Phaneuf, and Zubov would have outscored him with a healthy season anyway. Had Phaneuf repeated his 60-point performance from 07-08, he might be in that 6-10 range. But he didn't.

Heh... I was agreeing with you stating earlier he was "underrated".

Before the season he was overrated and I think his Norris runner-up was a joke.

Phaneuf had not only an offensively 'off' year, but defensively as well. Calgary fans were ready to string him up.

I am of the opinion that one year is not indicative of his overall play, just like a Norris runner-up is not either -- somewhere in the middle.

PS... it is always easy to criticize these lists, so kudos for actually taking the time to put one together.

Edited August 13, 2009 by egroen

[eva unit zero 271]

Where did I insult you in that post? Because I suggested that you hate Pronger?

Some insult you found to complain about.

And I did post something "civil" in my post, namely the idea that Pronger is a better 2 way defenseman than Markov, Zubov, Weber or Wideman. A couple of those guys have had several decent seasons, but that doesn't put them ahead of Pronger. Also, Zubov is no longer in the NHL.

Ask most players around the league where Pronger ranks, and he'll be higher than 13th on everyone's list.

Now I hope that you've gotten over my terrible "insult" towards you, and will respond to my "civil" post.

You said that I ranked Pronger where I did because he always pushed around Hudler.

Now, aside from the fact that I have posted logical reasons for why I would rank Pronger where I did, that particular statement is basically calling me a biased homer. Which I personally take as an insult; I don't know how others feel.