RedWingAbner 13 Report post Posted August 19, 2009 Wait! So Leino is only going to play 13 games this season? Really? And you said my post was illogical. Lol! (by the way, Leino is on pace to score 31 goals in 81 games -- by using your logic) P.S. Ericsson will play more than 19 games next season Helm will play more than 16 games next season Yes, your first post was illogical. So was this one. You cannot definitively say that a player will score more when using statistical analysis. That's like saying, as a Bruins fan, Dmitri Kvartalnov's first game (4 goals) was indicative of how he would always perform. So, since we have not seen that 300+ goal season, you cannot state probability in definate terms. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,794 Report post Posted August 19, 2009 Cool non-argument, bro. I'll get back to you when you've got something a little more constructive than "lol ur rong." Well at least I'm not cussing at people just to spark flame wars, like some other posters are. What argument do you want? People need to realize that more icetime wouldn't necessarily result in Hudler all of a sudden being one of the best forwards in the league. It's you people who have no argument, because you take Hudler's stats and then presume what he would score with more icetime. As I told eva yesterday, Hudler couldn't play 20 minutes a night, on both sides of the ice, play on the PP and PK, and be a team leader. That's why he didnt' get as much icetime here as he would in other places. We had too much talent for him. Bertuzzi gives this team more balance on the forward lines, whereas Hudler would just be another undersized non-checker. The only legitimate argument for Hudler over Bertuzzi is health, but at this point Bertuzzi was unfortunately the most skilled forward out there, so Holland felt like he had no choice. Most people around the league would likely think Bertuzzi is better than Hudler, if healthy. It's only the homers here who have this strange man crush on him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heroes of Hockeytown 694 Report post Posted August 19, 2009 As I told eva yesterday, Hudler couldn't play 20 minutes a night, on both sides of the ice, play on the PP and PK, and be a team leader. That's why he didnt' get as much icetime here as he would in other places. I wouldn't expect him to get 20 minutes a night. But he was badly underused at even strength, unless you believe Homer or Samuelsson were more effective scoring options, or that someone with 57 points ought to barely clear Draper/Kopecky territory in ice time. Bertuzzi gives this team more balance on the forward lines, whereas Hudler would just be another undersized non-checker. Do you fancy Bertuzzi to be the bone-crushing power forward of a bygone era? When he does hit it's effective, as befits a man of his size, but he's still primarily a finesse player, moreso now that he has a bad back to worry about. Most people around the league would likely think Bertuzzi is better than Hudler, if healthy. Based on what? The last two seasons where he didn't score as often, while playing more total minutes, alongside Jarome Iginla? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,794 Report post Posted August 19, 2009 I wouldn't expect him to get 20 minutes a night. But he was badly underused at even strength, unless you believe Homer or Samuelsson were more effective scoring options, or that someone with 57 points ought to barely clear Draper/Kopecky territory in ice time. Do you fancy Bertuzzi to be the bone-crushing power forward of a bygone era? When he does hit it's effective, as befits a man of his size, but he's still primarily a finesse player, moreso now that he has a bad back to worry about. Based on what? The last two seasons where he didn't score as often, while playing more total minutes, alongside Jarome Iginla? Bertuzzi has been hurt a lot the last few years. Plus, Iginla is more of a goal scorer than a set up man. Also, Calgary is not much of a scoring team. Hudler played on our PP unit, which is where a lot of his points came from. The Wings 2nd PP unit was loaded with talent, so Hudler wasnt' getting as little icetime as people claim he was. The Wings will now have another guy that will crash the net and give goalies fits, along with Homer, Franzen and Cleary. Also, if Bertuzzi can come anywhere near as physical and dominant as he once was, look out. Hudler doesn't have that much potential if you ask me. He'll always be a small, skilled player. He doesn't exactly put fear into the opposition or make himself a guy that's hard to play against. Once again, though, this comes down to popularity, and posters here are homerish towards Hudler. If a guy similar to Hudler was being sought by the Wings alongisde with Bertuzzi, most posters here would be for Bertuzzi being signed over that other guy. My last image of Hudler is him disappearing the last 2 rounds of the playoffs. If he played better and this team won the Cup, maybe he'd still be around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heroes of Hockeytown 694 Report post Posted August 19, 2009 Bertuzzi has been hurt a lot the last few years. Plus, Iginla is more of a goal scorer than a set up man. Also, Calgary is not much of a scoring team. Health is an important factor. And Iginla has had 50 assists in the last three seasons, so he must be doing something right. Hudler played on our PP unit, which is where a lot of his points came from. The Wings 2nd PP unit was loaded with talent, so Hudler wasnt' getting as little icetime as people claim he was. His PPTOI was proportionally much greater than his ESTOI, so half of his points were indeed on the PP. This doesn't affect his ESTOI shortage in any way though, where he was getting less time than Sammy and Homer, and barely more than Draper or Kopecky. Also, if Bertuzzi can come anywhere near as physical and dominant as he once was, look out. The last three years teams have been looking for it and not found it, I'm not optimistic about him transforming into a dominant power forward again. If he can provide good secondary scoring that'll fit the bill. My last image of Hudler is him disappearing the last 2 rounds of the playoffs. If he played better and this team won the Cup, maybe he'd still be around. What has Bert ever done in the playoffs? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,794 Report post Posted August 19, 2009 What has Bert ever done in the playoffs? I didn't think he was bad for us in the playoffs in 2007. There were several reasons we lost, but he wasn't anywhere near the main reason for it. Also, why would Hudler have gotten more icetime? Homer as others have said is useless outside the top 2 lines, and Flip played well in the playoffs and was higher paid than Hudler thus there was more pressure to appease him. Cleary is more versatile. Obviously Franzen, Hossa, Pavel and Hank were the other top forwards. Hudler actually got more icetime than he should have, because he knocked Flip off the PP units. People complaining about his icetime fail to realize that there was no way to give him more minutes without screwing something up for the rest of the team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029 Report post Posted August 19, 2009 The Hudler love here is absolutely insane, even after he's gone. Now people are saying he's better than Bertuzzi. From reading all these posts, I'm starting to think that Hudler could score more points than Gretzky or Lemieux if he got the same amount of minutes. yeah thats one thing i nvr could understand..hes a little girlscout and imo bertuzzi,even w his declining production and effectiveness,is still a better player than hudler hands down Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snazzy 0 Report post Posted August 20, 2009 this topic is about whether or not the recently signed forwards can make up for all the lost production. how does ericcson even figure in to that? maybe brad stuart will score more goals this year, so i guess its ok we lost hossa! the 2 things have nothing to do with each other. Lilja is not a scoring defenseman. Ericsson is an offensive defenseman. Ericcson used to play forward and will likely get some time quarter-backing the PP. Lilja never quarterbacked the Power Play. Ericsson scored the only goal in game 7 of the WCF... when everyone else in red and white couldn't. So yes, Ericsson goals will be useful for 2009/10 season (and playoffs) to think otherwise is absurd. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snazzy 0 Report post Posted August 20, 2009 Yes, your first post was illogical. So was this one. You cannot definitively say that a player will score more when using statistical analysis. That's like saying, as a Bruins fan, Dmitri Kvartalnov's first game (4 goals) was indicative of how he would always perform. So, since we have not seen that 300+ goal season, you cannot state probability in definate terms. Brilliant how you tried to dodge the question. So you really do think Leino, Helm and Ericsson will all play less than 20 games this season? Also, it appears your reading comprehensions are totally whacked. I said Leino will score 12 goals. He scored 5 goals in 13 games. 12 goals in 82 games shouldn't be that difficult for the rookie. Then again, you think he's only going to play 13 games this season... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heroes of Hockeytown 694 Report post Posted August 20, 2009 I didn't think he was bad for us in the playoffs in 2007. There were several reasons we lost, but he wasn't anywhere near the main reason for it. My point was he has never done anything in the playoffs even as impressive as Hudler. Also, why would Hudler have gotten more icetime? Homer as others have said is useless outside the top 2 lines, and Flip played well in the playoffs and was higher paid than Hudler thus there was more pressure to appease him. Cleary is more versatile. Obviously Franzen, Hossa, Pavel and Hank were the other top forwards. Hudler was never given a chance to on the top line for more than two games during the season, so we had no opportunity to see him mesh with any of top six. Hudler actually got more icetime than he should have, because he knocked Flip off the PP units. Flip unequivocally does not have better hands than Hudler. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShanahanMan 473 Report post Posted August 20, 2009 (edited) Impressive off season considering the circumstances! We lost: Hossa - 40g Hudler - 23g Sammy - 19g Kops - 6g ------------- total 88 We gain: Bert - 20g Williams - 20g Leino - 12g Eaves - 8g Ericsson - 8g Flip will crack 20g with more ice time, adding an addition 8 goals from last year. ----------------- total 76 Snazzy: I posted this in the first page, but you must have missed it. I really don't mean to get into it again with you, but weren't you arguing with me pretty adamantly about how Holland shouldn't dare sign anyone and just bring the kids up? I'm just interested to know, why the change of heart? I thought you would have hated these signings. Edited August 20, 2009 by ShanahanMan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Z and D for the C 712 Report post Posted August 20, 2009 That being said, with the needs the Wings had a few days ago I think I'd prefer Bertuzzi over Hudler for this season. He fits the bill of needs far more than Hudler does, in my opinion. This. That is what I mean when I say Bert > Hudler. When has Hudler ever been impressive in the playoffs. If I didn't know better I wouldn't even be sure he played in the second half of the playoffs last year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heroes of Hockeytown 694 Report post Posted August 20, 2009 When has Hudler ever been impressive in the playoffs. If I didn't know better I wouldn't even be sure he played in the second half of the playoffs last year. He is dead last in the top nine in minutes played but has finished ahead of some of his contemporaries in scoring the last two playoff years. He didn't have a great Finals last year but I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive a guy for having one bad playoff series. Maybe this will cheer you up. But, far, far more relevant to the point I was trying to make from the get-go: When has Bertuzzi ever been impressive in the playoffs, at any point in his career, or even had a season comparable to what Hudler did last year or the year before? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stiffy 0 Report post Posted August 20, 2009 Overall I am not thrilled with picking up guys we had before. Williams and Bertuzzi are not my idea of a fresh new approach. Neither showed the kind of post season hustle and heart that makes guys like Cleary, Helm, Osgood and a few others so valuable. Come to think of it, both played key roles in screwing us in the playoffs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedWingAbner 13 Report post Posted August 20, 2009 Brilliant how you tried to dodge the question. So you really do think Leino, Helm and Ericsson will all play less than 20 games this season? Also, it appears your reading comprehensions are totally whacked. I said Leino will score 12 goals. He scored 5 goals in 13 games. 12 goals in 82 games shouldn't be that difficult for the rookie. Then again, you think he's only going to play 13 games this season... Listen pup. I didn't deny that Leino/Ericsson/et al wouldn't play more, I simply did not state it. The only one dodging the point is you, but it really doesn't matter to me. BTW, my reading comprehension-- the singular one-- is fine. I am simply stating that your formula doesn't quite work out and by randomly pulling figures and comparing them against actual stats, your post doesn't make much sense. That's all. No worries here; welcome to LGW. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Z Winged Dangler 2,082 Report post Posted August 20, 2009 Add to this fact that Helm is going to be here ALL year and there is NO WAY Osgood has as bad of year (GAA-wise) as he did last year (could he?) So you can shave off atleast 20 goals from our Goals Against this year as well. I am excited to see how having three people that can screen the net also adds to our goals for. With Holmstrom, Franzen and now Bertuzzi who can all reek havoc to opposing goaltender, we should outdo the 88 goals lost and then some... In addition to the fact that big bert can reek havoc in front of the net, he is also REALLY good at cycling down low in the other teams zone. that is an underrated part of his game that seemingly goes unnoticed by many. he may actually be a good fit on the 1st line with dats and z if the wings are to give homer a lesser 5 on 5 role this season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thedatsyukian 7 Report post Posted August 20, 2009 Holy s*** just add "hypothetically" to some of this years goal totals so this thread doesn't become a stupid math argument when the point is actually rather valid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedWingAbner 13 Report post Posted February 13, 2010 Just bumping this up. Also pointing out that I miss ole Snazzy, haven't heard from him since October. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FedorovMan91 1 Report post Posted February 13, 2010 Just bumping this up. Also pointing out that I miss ole Snazzy, haven't heard from him since October. He has not showed up for a long time because his predictions and logics were wrong Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hockeytown0001 7,652 Report post Posted February 13, 2010 I thought I'd see this thread again at some point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Crymson Report post Posted February 13, 2010 (edited) Just bumping this up. Also pointing out that I miss ole Snazzy, haven't heard from him since October. Gee, what a surprise. Someone bumps this thread in order to ***** and to point fingers at anyone who was optimistic. Edit: A further surprise: it's you. Who are you trying to convince, and why? Edited February 13, 2010 by Crymson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rage 24 Report post Posted February 13, 2010 Gee, what a surprise. Someone bumps this thread in order to ***** and to point fingers at anyone who was optimistic. He did say he missed that poster. I don't think he was bitching at him for being positive back in August. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA Report post Posted February 13, 2010 Gee, what a surprise. Someone bumps this thread in order to ***** and to point fingers at anyone who was optimistic. His predictions were actually incredibly reasonable, and were actually not that far off barring injury. Leino's number was a bit high, but a lot had hims lotted for 15 automatically. Give the guy some credit and stop bitching Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jamaica Jon 1 Report post Posted February 13, 2010 Yeah I did the math.... player - GP - G Bertuzzi - 60 - 15 Williams - 22 - 4 Leino - 42 - 4 Eaves - 47 - 9 Ericsson - 45 - 3 Filppula - 34 - 6 if they all played all 82 games (a little unreasonable, I know), at the same scoring rates & subtracting Flip's 12 from last season... It'd be a total of about 68 goals... Pretty close to the estimation. If Leino would've performed even half as well as we ALL thought, it would be pretty spot on Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rage 24 Report post Posted February 13, 2010 Yeah I did the math.... player - GP - G Bertuzzi - 60 - 15 Williams - 22 - 4 Leino - 42 - 4 Eaves - 47 - 9 Ericsson - 45 - 3 Filppula - 34 - 6 if they all played all 82 games (a little unreasonable, I know), at the same scoring rates & subtracting Flip's 12 from last season... It'd be a total of about 68 goals... Pretty close to the estimation. If Leino would've performed even half as well as we ALL thought, it would be pretty spot on Good job doing the math. Homeboy wasn't that far off at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
