Lidstrom's Future

[Guest micah]

LOL... were you hoping to sue me for libel?

No, for money. I don't even know what libel is.

/kidding

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Do you not understand what quotation marks mean either? He said I said something that I did not say. Precision matters. Just because you happen to agree with egroen, doesn't make him any less wrong in this instance. If he wasn't certain what I said, he shouldn't have used quotes.

Don't be an ass, I know what quotation marks mean. You're just side-stepping my question. You called him a joke of a captain, which is quite similar to egroen stating you think he's a "horrible captain" which BTW, you certainly seem to be more of that mentality than the other side of the spectrum. Calling him a joke of a captain is no different than calling him a horrible captain when you're inferring what you are.

Are all players who wear the C and take paycuts and win the Stanley Cup necesarily great Captains or is it possible that they are merely great players on great teams?

And how many players do you know that wear the "C', take paycuts and win the Stanley Cup that are bad captains? Go ahead, name one?

I suspect that there are instances where a player might take a paycut for the good of the team, might be a great player, and might get the C, and might win a Cup or 10. That alone is not sufficient cause to say that said player is a great captain. the may very well be a mediocre or even bad captain, and have a team that wins not because of but in spite of them.

This could be the most ridiculous comment I've read on these boards in a very long time.

Lidstrom is the best player in the world, and like Stevie Y, leads by example both on and off the ice and his team wins. That's what makes him a great captain. Just because Stevie had more unfortunate luck with injuries during his time with the Wings doesn't make it fair to rip Lids for being weak since he didn't have to deal with the severity of injuries Stevie did. You have no clue how Lids would've reacted had he been in that situation, just like you have no clue regarding the circumstances of Lids not playing in the All-Star game. Did you ever stop to think perhaps the Red Wings staff advised him to not play in the game to aid with his health?

[thedatsyukian 7]

I think some of you are expecting for too much of a discount from Lidstrom next season(barring significant drop off in play this season) considering Scott Niedermayer is making 6.7 million and it would make Lidstrom the fourth highest paid player on the team. Why would Lidstrom all the sudden go from being the "Lidstrom Cap" to making less than Rafalski?

[Echolalia 2,961]

I think some of you are expecting for too much of a discount from Lidstrom next season(barring significant drop off in play this season) considering Scott Niedermayer is making 6.7 million and it would make Lidstrom the fourth highest paid player on the team. Why would Lidstrom all the sudden go from being the "Lidstrom Cap" to making less than Rafalski?

Because he wants to win?

[thedatsyukian 7]

Because he wants to win?

There's a difference between wanting to win by taking a discount and giving up 2-3 million a year. As a fan it's easy to say he's going to give up a lot of money for the sake of winning but it's simply unreasonable to expect him to pass up that much. Value is an important term here. Lidstrom is the most valuable piece of this organization, and you don't think he believes he should be payed as such?

[Guest micah]

And how many players do you know that wear the "C', take paycuts and win the Stanley Cup that are bad captains? Go ahead, name one?

You mean other than Lids:)?

I don't mean to knock the guy, because as you'll note, I admitted that I shouldn't have called him "a joke", that was going too far, like I said. He is a great player, without a doubt. I am simply not convinced that he is a great captain. He accepted less money than he was worth on the open market to stay with his team, not unlike quite a few other veterans. that's very nice of him. He is very skilled. That's awesome.

He also inherited a team of stars and superstars, with exceptional management. anything short of winning the cup would have been considered failure for Lidstrom. You cannot compare the accomplishments he's had while Captain to say, Shane Doan, because there is no way to filter out the differences in the tasks they were given. Lidstrom was given a C with the expectation that he would keep the awesome ship from running aground, that's it. Everyone should be so lucky. I was wrong to call him a joke, but I don't think that there is sufficient reason to conclude that his captaining is anything special.

I believe that the Wings would be in pretty much the same boat today had Z, Dats, Franzen, Chelios, or Meech been given the C. Do you disagree? Please explain what you think these guys would have failed at that Lidstrom's awesome Captaining preveiled at.

Lidstrom is the best player in the world, and like Stevie Y, leads by example both on and off the ice and his team wins. That's what makes him a great captain. Just because Stevie had more unfortunate luck with injuries during his time with the Wings doesn't make it fair to rip Lids for being weak since he didn't have to deal with the severity of injuries Stevie did. You have no clue how Lids would've reacted had he been in that situation, just like you have no clue regarding the circumstances of Lids not playing in the All-Star game. Did you ever stop to think perhaps the Red Wings staff advised him not play in the game to aid with his health?

Hole strawman. Where on earth did you get the idea that I ripped Lids for not getting injurred enough?

I wonder if you even really get that everytime you say "You have no clue how Lids would've reacted had he been in that situation..." (note appropriate use of quotation marks) you're also tacitly admitting that you don't either.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

You mean other than Lids:)?

I don't mean to knock the guy, because as you'll note, I admitted that I shouldn't have called him "a joke", that was going too far, like I said. He is a great player, without a doubt. I am simply not convinced that he is a great captain. He accepted less money than he was worth on the open market to stay with his team, not unlike quite a few other veterans. that's very nice of him. He is very skilled. That's awesome.

He also inherited a team of stars and superstars, with exceptional management. anything short of winning the cup would have been considered failure for Lidstrom. You cannot compare the accomplishments he's had while Captain to say, Shane Doan, because there is no way to filter out the differences in the tasks they were given. Lidstrom was given a C with the expectation that he would keep the awesome ship from running aground, that's it. Everyone should be so lucky. I was wrong to call him a joke, but I don't think that there is sufficient reason to conclude that his captaining is anything special.

I believe that the Wings would be in pretty much the same boat today had Z, Dats, Franzen, Chelios, or Meech been given the C. Do you disagree? Please explain what you think these guys would have failed at that Lidstrom's awesome Captaining preveiled at.

I'm not saying they wouldn't have won as much had Z, Dats, etc been captain instead of Lidstrom, but that doesn't diminish the fact that he's been a great captain. You make the comment that all he had to do was keep the ship from running aground like its some easy task. Yes, the Wings have some of the best players in the world, but you're diminishing Lids' contributions because he didn't have to turn the team around. That's not his fault, but he's done a great job of keeping the team where it needs to be.

Hole strawman. Where on earth did you get the idea that I ripped Lids for not getting injurred enough?

Because you called him a ***** on page 2 of this thread.

I wonder if you even really get that everytime you say "You have no clue how Lids would've reacted had he been in that situation..." (note appropriate use of quotation marks) you're also tacitly admitting that you don't either.

Just like you don't understand the effort or the quality leadership Lids has given Detroit since he's taken over as Captain. What possible evidence do you have aside from blatant speculation that Lids is just a mediocre captain? Factual evidence proves my argument much more than yours.

[egroen 384]

A superstar, Hall-of-Fame veteran like Lidstrom is very valuable as a Captain.

First -- Who is ever going to question Nicklas Lidstrom? When Lidstrom speaks in the locker room, I have a feeling the team listens and takes it to heart.

Second -- He has an outstanding work ethic. If anyone could coast by on talent, it is Lidstrom. If the younger players (let's take Eaves as an example) see someone with very little left to prove working their ass off, it makes a difference.

Third -- He has a mind for the game few have ever rivaled. Lidstrom's hockey IQ is off the charts and invaluable as a captain.

Fourth -- He is one of the most repsected players in the game. Opposing players respect him on and off the ice. Refs will always at least listen to what Nicklas Lidstrom has to say.

Fifth -- He is a warrior, the Cal Ripken of hockey and rarely misses a game. Regularily plays through pain and played with a ruptured freakin' ******** last post-season.

Sixth -- He is a professional athlete of very high moral fiber. He is a role model for not only younger players on the team, but for fans as well.

Seventh -- He is well-spoken, modest, intelligent and an excellent spokesperson for the team.

Eighth -- He has also made monetary sacrifices for the team - which is of utmost importance in a salary cap year.

Ninth -- He is ultimately one of the greatest Red wings success stories ever. Drafted by the Wings in the Third Round -- an unbelievable testament to the Wings organization.

Tenth -- I can't think of too many other players I would want as a leader, and to lead by example, than someone whose nickname is "The Perfect Human Being".

Edited August 21, 2009 by egroen

[Guest micah]

I'm not saying they wouldn't have won as much had Z, Dats, etc been captain instead of Lidstrom, but that doesn't diminish the fact that he's been a great captain.

Yes, it does. A bad captain should be expected to yield worse results than your average captain in the same situation. A great Captain should be expected to tield better results than your average Captain in the same situation. If Lids (or any other person) is performing a job at a level that just about anyone else would be expected to perform at the same level, they can't be doing a great job.

Nik has mannaged to not f*** up a good thing. That's not nothing, but it falls short of greatness.

Edited August 21, 2009 by micah

[Guest micah]

A superstar, Hall-of-Fame veteran like Lidstrom is very valuable as a Captain.

First -- Who is ever going to question Nicklas Lidstrom? When Lidstrom speaks in the locker room, I have a feeling the team listens and takes it to heart.

Second -- He has an outstanding work ethic. If anyone could coast by on talent, it is Lidstrom. If the younger players (let's take Eaves as an example) see someone with very little left to prove working their ass off, it makes a difference.

Third -- He has a mind for the game few have ever rivaled. Lidstrom's hockey IQ is off the charts and invaluable as a captain.

Fourth -- He is one of the most repsected players in the game. Opposing players respect him on and off the ice. Refs will always at least listen to what Nicklas Lidstrom has to say.

Fifth -- He is a warrior, the Cal Ripken of hockey and rarely misses a game. Regularily plays through pain and played with a ruptured freakin' ******** last post-season.

Sixth -- He is a professional athlete of very high moral fiber. He is a role model for not only younger players on the team, but for fans as well.

Seventh -- He is well-spoken, modest, intelligent and an excellent spokesperson for the team.

Eighth -- He has also made monetary sacrifices for the team - which is of utmost importance in a salary cap year.

Ninth -- He is ultimately one of the greatest Red wings success stories ever. Drafted by the Wings in the Third Round -- an unbelievable testament to the Wings organization.

Tenth -- I can't think of too many other players I would want as a leader, and to lead by example, than someone whose nickname is "The Perfect Person".

This is a really well thought out post, and I can agree with all of it.

The perfect person would have been born in North America fight once in a while though;)

[egroen 384]

Yes, it does. A bad captain should be expected to yield worse results than your average captain in the same situation. A great Captain should be expected to tield better results than your average Captain in the same situation. If Lids (or any other person) is performing a job at a level that just about anyone else would be expected to perform at the same level, they can't be doing a great job.

Nik has mannaged to not f*** up a good thing. That's not nothing, but it falls short of greatness.

By that reasoning, Lidstrom is a better captain than Yzerman.

Since 2003:

Yzerman Captained teams:

2003: Out in First round

2004: Out in Second Round

2006: Out in First Round

Lidstrom Captained Teams:

2007: Out in Third Round

2008: Stanley Cup Winner

2009: Out in Cup Finals

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Yes, it does. A bad captain should be expected to yield worse results than your average captain in the same situation. A great Captain should be expected to tield better results than your average Captain in the same situation. If Lids (or any other person) is performing a job at a level that just about anyone else would be expected to perform at the same level, they can't be doing a great job.

Nik has mannaged to not f*** up a good thing. That's not nothing, but it falls short of greatness.

In the three years Lids has been captain he has taken his team to the Conference Final every season, Won a Stanley Cup, and finished one game from another Cup. That's a better post-season average than Stevie Y had during his career. How is that performing at the same level as his predecessor?

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

By that reasoning, Lidstrom is a better captain than Yzerman.

Since 2003:

Yzerman Captained teams:

2003: Out in First round

2004: Out in Second Round

2006: Out in First Round

Lidstrom Captained Teams:

2007: Out in Third Round

2008: Stanley Cup Winner

2009: Out in Cup Finals

You beat beat me by one minute!

[mmamolo 287]

I think there is a lot to be said about the mentality that Lidstrom and the wings approach the game. They're calm and collected. They dont take bad penalties, the play between the whistles and approach all areas of the game with skill and intelligence. I think the fact that Lidstrom is the poster child for this type of play says a lot abotu him being the captain of a team who plays this way as well.

[thedatsyukian 7]

I think there is a lot to be said about the mentality that Lidstrom and the wings approach the game. They're calm and collected. They dont take bad penalties, the play between the whistles and approach all areas of the game with skill and intelligence. I think the fact that Lidstrom is the poster child for this type of play says a lot abotu him being the captain of a team who plays this way as well.

That's exactly it, Lidstrom personifies the Red Wings. Great post.

[egroen 384]

This is a really well thought out post, and I can agree with all of it.

The perfect person would have been born in North America fight once in a while though;)

Heh...

Thanks though, you are surprisingly willing to concede a point (rare charecteristic on a message board)

[Guest micah]

By that reasoning, Lidstrom is a better captain than Yzerman.

Since 2003:

Yzerman Captained teams:

2003: Out in First round

2004: Out in Second Round

2006: Out in First Round

Lidstrom Captained Teams:

2007: Out in Third Round

2008: Stanley Cup Winner

2009: Out in Cup Finals

Yzerman was given the C when the team was not competetive. He was one of a few players and front-office personnel who helped make the team great. The team was great for his last 10 years as Captain. If Lidstrom can mannage 10 years Captaining a great team, I'll concede that he just might be a great captain - even though he was handed an already great team.

I remain unconvinced that the team is better because he is the Captain than they would have been if the C had gone to someone else. NFM agrees with me, and he's super-smart. Do you think the Wings would have been less succesful post-Yzerman had Pavel or Dats or Cheli been given the C? If you believe they would have been less succesful, then I can see why you'd think Lids is a great Captain. If you suspect things would be about the same, then Lids can't be great, right?

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Yzerman was given the C when the team was not competetive. He was one of a few players and front-office personnel who helped make the team great. The team was great for his last 10 years as Captain. If Lidstrom can mannage 10 years Captaining a great team, I'll concede that he just might be a great captain - even though he was handed an already great team.

I remain unconvinced that the team is better because he is the Captain than they would have been if the C had gone to someone else. NFM agrees with me, and he's super-smart. Do you think the Wings would have been less succesful post-Yzerman had Pavel or Dats or Cheli been given the C? If you believe they would have been less succesful, then I can see why you'd think Lids is a great Captain. If you suspect things would be about the same, then Lids can't be great, right?

No I don't...don't put words in my mouth. The Wings likely would've been as successful had Z been named the Captain but we all know who would really be the guy that everyone on that roster looked at to lead them....and that's Lidstrom.

What's sad is that you were proven wrong regarding Lidstrom's success as a Captain compared to his predecessor and instead of admitting it, you change the terms and say "If Lidstrom can manage 10 years Captaining a great team, I'll concede that he just might be a great captain". That's BS because you know Lids won't be around that long, so you don't have to worry about admitting you're wrong....which you are in this case.

Bottom line, Lids has had more success his first three years as captain than his predecessor did in the three years before that. Admit that, micah.

[egroen 384]

Yzerman was given the C when the team was not competetive. He was one of a few players and front-office personnel who helped make the team great. The team was great for his last 10 years as Captain. If Lidstrom can mannage 10 years Captaining a great team, I'll concede that he just might be a great captain - even though he was handed an already great team.

I remain unconvinced that the team is better because he is the Captain than they would have been if the C had gone to someone else. NFM agrees with me, and he's super-smart. Do you think the Wings would have been less succesful post-Yzerman had Pavel or Dats or Cheli been given the C? If you believe they would have been less succesful, then I can see why you'd think Lids is a great Captain. If you suspect things would be about the same, then Lids can't be great, right?

I do not think Lidstrom will have the chance to rival Yzerman's tenure as Captain - though you have to give him huge props for getting over the hurdle those [very good as well] Red Wings teams were not able to overcome in Yzerman's final years.

Chelios would not carry the same weight well into his 40s that he did a decade(s) ago. I do not think he would have been as effective or taken as seriously. I also think he enjoys being "one of the guys" nowadays moreso than he would welcome the responsibilities of a captain.

Datsyuk has the whole language barrier problem -- which is a significant problem for your captain.

Zetterberg in 2007 really had not "earned his chops" yet -- Tough to be a captain on a team with dozens of Stanley Cup rings without even having one yourself.

The most realistic option would have been Shanahan -- and well, I think they made the right choice. Ultimately it is tough to argue with actual results.

Edited August 21, 2009 by egroen

[GORM19 0]

Yzerman was given the C when the team was not competetive. He was one of a few players and front-office personnel who helped make the team great. The team was great for his last 10 years as Captain. If Lidstrom can mannage 10 years Captaining a great team, I'll concede that he just might be a great captain - even though he was handed an already great team.

I remain unconvinced that the team is better because he is the Captain than they would have been if the C had gone to someone else. NFM agrees with me, and he's super-smart. Do you think the Wings would have been less succesful post-Yzerman had Pavel or Dats or Cheli been given the C? If you believe they would have been less succesful, then I can see why you'd think Lids is a great Captain. If you suspect things would be about the same, then Lids can't be great, right?

I agree with this point 100% plus stevie played with injuries that know one else could, lidstrom included while still blocking shots and scoring on top of that .stevie played almost half his career with these injuries but they got worse in 2002 and he still managed to bring us to the cup.Lidstrom has never had to deal with these kinds of issues.I am not saying nick is not a good captin but heart goes along way and stevie has got the biggest one ive ever seen.And as for 2006 stevie was our best player against the oilers at the end of his career.

[Guest micah]

Chelios would not carry the same weight well into his 40s that he did a decade(s) ago. I do not think he would have been as effective or taken as seriously. I also think he enjoys being "one of the guys" nowadays moreso than he would welcome the responsibilities of a captain.

Datsyuk has the whole language barrier problem -- which is a significant problem for your captain.

Zetterberg in 2007 really had not "earned his chops" yet -- Tough to be a captain on a team with dozens of Stanley Cup rings without even having one yourself.

The most realistic option would have been Shanahan -- and well, I think they made the right choice. Ultimately it is tough to argue with actual results.

I don't see Shanahan as great captain material, I see him as a schmuck. I like him as a player, but he sucks as a man. I wouldn't respect the guy.

I think Chelios could have and would have been a great Captain. I think that he is enough of a dick that he has the ability to keep refs from blowing the whistle on a borderline call, just because they don't want to hear from him.

I have no oppinion on whether Dats or Zetterburg would have been good or bad captains.

It is tough to argue with results, but we have to define what the results are results of. I'm not convinced that the Wings would have been any less succesful if Lids wore no letter - and if that's the case, he can't be a great Captain. You disagree, and that's fine, you have your reasons. I think Lidstrom is a status-quo interim Captain. Well respected, good enough to man the helm until someone else shows up. Hey, maybe Helm!

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I agree with this point 100% plus stevie played with injuries that know one else could, lidstrom included while still blocking shots and scoring on top of that .stevie played almost half his career with these injuries but they got worse in 2002 and he still managed to bring us to the cup.Lidstrom has never had to deal with these kinds of issues.I am not saying nick is not a good captin but heart goes along way and stevie has got the biggest one ive ever seen.And as for 2006 stevie was our best player against the oilers at the end of his career.

Stevie's heart is unrivaled by anyone in my mind as well, but no one is debating that.

[mmamolo 287]

If Lidstrom can mannage 10 years Captaining a great team, I'll concede that he just might be a great captain - even though he was handed an already great team.

I dont think that's realyl a fair comparison. Lidstrom wasn't handed an already great team. He was part of an already great team. It's not really fair to either Yzerman or Lidstrom to compare them as captains. Both had very different situations, with different ppl around them, and in different eras of the league. During Yzerman's time (a lot of it) we had poor coaches and management. But then when things turned around we bought and traded and signed the best players in the league. During Lidstrom's time, the cap was introduced and we were forced to get more out of fewer all star players.

Both Yzerman and Lidstrom have proven to be great captains in my opinion, each for different reasons. I dont think you can ever really compare the two with each other, or anyone else, because situations are never the same. You should be determining if someone is a good captain based on his own merit and how you feel he handles certain situations for himself. You shouldnt think how would Yzernman have handled a SC hangover at the beginning of the 08/09 season.

They're different guys, with different teammates, with different coaches, different scenarios, different eras. It's pointless to try and compare apples with oranges.

[Guest micah]

They're different guys, with different teammates, with different coaches, different scenarios, different eras. It's pointless to try and compare apples with oranges.

You are absolutely right, hence my questioning what ills would have befallen the team had someone else been given the C that Lids wears.

[mmamolo 287]

You are absolutely right, hence my questioning what ills would have befallen the team had someone else been given the C that Lids wears.

Persaonlly I think it's a lot harder to stay on top than ppl sometime's think. I think Lidstrom had the experience, the intelligence and poise to lead this team coming out of the cap. Not only that but he was also the guy who made the most sense. At the time Zetterberg, Datsyuk and co. weren't near ready. You could make arguments for Chelios and guys like that but Nic was rewarded for being a homegrown talent, a guy who puts his team first and a guy who as been through all the ups and down and rigors with this franchise. You can call him an interim captain if you'd like and it's true that if he retires in say two or even three years a 5 or 6 year captaincy isn't that long relative to Yzerman's tenure but I think Lidstrom's captaincy will be remembered for two main contributions.

1. Taking over for Yzerman and keeping the team very succesful now in the cap world where we can no longer spend liek crazy in the offseason. Three straight trips to the conference finals or better is not an easy feat no matter who is on your team.

2. Grooming us for the future. Lidstrom is here to not only groom our young defensemen like he did with Kronwall and is now going to do with Ericsson but he's also groomed Zetterberg and Datsyuk. There are a lot of characteristics that I think they at least in part learned from the way Lidstrom leads this team. When the captaincy is ready to be handed over to Zetterberg (most likely) he'll be ready because of what he has learned fro mLidstrom, just as Lidstrom was ready because of what he learned from Yzerman. Plus I think it's important to think of the effect Lidstrom had on leading all of his fellow swedes on this team.

To answer your question directly, I dont think the captaincy is somethign to be given to a guy on a short term period (like a chelios or someone three years ago). I think it shoudl go to someone who has been there a long time and hopefulyl deserves it and will stay a while and be effective. I think any of the other possible choices three years ago weren't ready. I dont think they, or the team, would have had the poise and experience to handle three straight deep playoff runs.

Edited August 21, 2009 by mmamolo