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Lidstrom's Future


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#61 egroen

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 01:06 PM

QUOTE (micah @ August 21, 2009 - 02:01PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, it does. A bad captain should be expected to yield worse results than your average captain in the same situation. A great Captain should be expected to tield better results than your average Captain in the same situation. If Lids (or any other person) is performing a job at a level that just about anyone else would be expected to perform at the same level, they can't be doing a great job.

Nik has mannaged to not f*** up a good thing. That's not nothing, but it falls short of greatness.

By that reasoning, Lidstrom is a better captain than Yzerman.

Since 2003:

Yzerman Captained teams:
2003: Out in First round
2004: Out in Second Round
2006: Out in First Round

Lidstrom Captained Teams:
2007: Out in Third Round
2008: Stanley Cup Winner
2009: Out in Cup Finals


Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

"For my game, I don't need to score the goal," Konstantinov once explained. "I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals."

#62 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 01:07 PM

QUOTE (micah @ August 21, 2009 - 01:01PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, it does. A bad captain should be expected to yield worse results than your average captain in the same situation. A great Captain should be expected to tield better results than your average Captain in the same situation. If Lids (or any other person) is performing a job at a level that just about anyone else would be expected to perform at the same level, they can't be doing a great job.

Nik has mannaged to not f*** up a good thing. That's not nothing, but it falls short of greatness.

In the three years Lids has been captain he has taken his team to the Conference Final every season, Won a Stanley Cup, and finished one game from another Cup. That's a better post-season average than Stevie Y had during his career. How is that performing at the same level as his predecessor?
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#63 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 01:12 PM

QUOTE (egroen @ August 21, 2009 - 01:06PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
By that reasoning, Lidstrom is a better captain than Yzerman.

Since 2003:

Yzerman Captained teams:
2003: Out in First round
2004: Out in Second Round
2006: Out in First Round

Lidstrom Captained Teams:
2007: Out in Third Round
2008: Stanley Cup Winner
2009: Out in Cup Finals

laugh.gif You beat beat me by one minute!
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#64 mmamolo

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 01:13 PM

I think there is a lot to be said about the mentality that Lidstrom and the wings approach the game. They're calm and collected. They dont take bad penalties, the play between the whistles and approach all areas of the game with skill and intelligence. I think the fact that Lidstrom is the poster child for this type of play says a lot abotu him being the captain of a team who plays this way as well.
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#65 thedatsyukian

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 01:16 PM

QUOTE (mmamolo @ August 21, 2009 - 02:13PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think there is a lot to be said about the mentality that Lidstrom and the wings approach the game. They're calm and collected. They dont take bad penalties, the play between the whistles and approach all areas of the game with skill and intelligence. I think the fact that Lidstrom is the poster child for this type of play says a lot abotu him being the captain of a team who plays this way as well.


That's exactly it, Lidstrom personifies the Red Wings. Great post.
kay

#66 egroen

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 01:25 PM

QUOTE (micah @ August 21, 2009 - 02:04PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is a really well thought out post, and I can agree with all of it.

The perfect person would have been born in North America fight once in a while though;)

Heh...

Thanks though, you are surprisingly willing to concede a point (rare charecteristic on a message board) unsure.gif
Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

"For my game, I don't need to score the goal," Konstantinov once explained. "I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals."

#67 micah

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 01:30 PM

QUOTE (egroen @ August 21, 2009 - 01:06PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
By that reasoning, Lidstrom is a better captain than Yzerman.

Since 2003:

Yzerman Captained teams:
2003: Out in First round
2004: Out in Second Round
2006: Out in First Round

Lidstrom Captained Teams:
2007: Out in Third Round
2008: Stanley Cup Winner
2009: Out in Cup Finals



Yzerman was given the C when the team was not competetive. He was one of a few players and front-office personnel who helped make the team great. The team was great for his last 10 years as Captain. If Lidstrom can mannage 10 years Captaining a great team, I'll concede that he just might be a great captain - even though he was handed an already great team.

I remain unconvinced that the team is better because he is the Captain than they would have been if the C had gone to someone else. NFM agrees with me, and he's super-smart. Do you think the Wings would have been less succesful post-Yzerman had Pavel or Dats or Cheli been given the C? If you believe they would have been less succesful, then I can see why you'd think Lids is a great Captain. If you suspect things would be about the same, then Lids can't be great, right?
"It was pretty interesting," said Detroit coach Mike Babcock. "We had May in exhibition for a couple of games and no one gets hacked or whacked. When we don't have him, we get run. We don't have a team that twists off helmets at stoppages. You get tired of seeing it all the time. It's just nice when you get someone to look after that stuff."

#68 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 01:36 PM

QUOTE (micah @ August 21, 2009 - 01:30PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yzerman was given the C when the team was not competetive. He was one of a few players and front-office personnel who helped make the team great. The team was great for his last 10 years as Captain. If Lidstrom can mannage 10 years Captaining a great team, I'll concede that he just might be a great captain - even though he was handed an already great team.

I remain unconvinced that the team is better because he is the Captain than they would have been if the C had gone to someone else. NFM agrees with me, and he's super-smart. Do you think the Wings would have been less succesful post-Yzerman had Pavel or Dats or Cheli been given the C? If you believe they would have been less succesful, then I can see why you'd think Lids is a great Captain. If you suspect things would be about the same, then Lids can't be great, right?

No I don't...don't put words in my mouth. The Wings likely would've been as successful had Z been named the Captain but we all know who would really be the guy that everyone on that roster looked at to lead them....and that's Lidstrom.

What's sad is that you were proven wrong regarding Lidstrom's success as a Captain compared to his predecessor and instead of admitting it, you change the terms and say "If Lidstrom can manage 10 years Captaining a great team, I'll concede that he just might be a great captain". That's BS because you know Lids won't be around that long, so you don't have to worry about admitting you're wrong....which you are in this case.

Bottom line, Lids has had more success his first three years as captain than his predecessor did in the three years before that. Admit that, micah.
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#69 egroen

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 01:37 PM

QUOTE (micah @ August 21, 2009 - 02:30PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yzerman was given the C when the team was not competetive. He was one of a few players and front-office personnel who helped make the team great. The team was great for his last 10 years as Captain. If Lidstrom can mannage 10 years Captaining a great team, I'll concede that he just might be a great captain - even though he was handed an already great team.

I remain unconvinced that the team is better because he is the Captain than they would have been if the C had gone to someone else. NFM agrees with me, and he's super-smart. Do you think the Wings would have been less succesful post-Yzerman had Pavel or Dats or Cheli been given the C? If you believe they would have been less succesful, then I can see why you'd think Lids is a great Captain. If you suspect things would be about the same, then Lids can't be great, right?

I do not think Lidstrom will have the chance to rival Yzerman's tenure as Captain - though you have to give him huge props for getting over the hurdle those [very good as well] Red Wings teams were not able to overcome in Yzerman's final years.

Chelios would not carry the same weight well into his 40s that he did a decade(s) ago. I do not think he would have been as effective or taken as seriously. I also think he enjoys being "one of the guys" nowadays moreso than he would welcome the responsibilities of a captain.
Datsyuk has the whole language barrier problem -- which is a significant problem for your captain.
Zetterberg in 2007 really had not "earned his chops" yet -- Tough to be a captain on a team with dozens of Stanley Cup rings without even having one yourself.

The most realistic option would have been Shanahan -- and well, I think they made the right choice. Ultimately it is tough to argue with actual results.

Edited by egroen, 21 August 2009 - 01:39 PM.

Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

"For my game, I don't need to score the goal," Konstantinov once explained. "I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals."

#70 GORM19

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 01:46 PM

QUOTE (micah @ August 21, 2009 - 02:30PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yzerman was given the C when the team was not competetive. He was one of a few players and front-office personnel who helped make the team great. The team was great for his last 10 years as Captain. If Lidstrom can mannage 10 years Captaining a great team, I'll concede that he just might be a great captain - even though he was handed an already great team.

I remain unconvinced that the team is better because he is the Captain than they would have been if the C had gone to someone else. NFM agrees with me, and he's super-smart. Do you think the Wings would have been less succesful post-Yzerman had Pavel or Dats or Cheli been given the C? If you believe they would have been less succesful, then I can see why you'd think Lids is a great Captain. If you suspect things would be about the same, then Lids can't be great, right?


I agree with this point 100% plus stevie played with injuries that know one else could, lidstrom included while still blocking shots and scoring on top of that .stevie played almost half his career with these injuries but they got worse in 2002 and he still managed to bring us to the cup.Lidstrom has never had to deal with these kinds of issues.I am not saying nick is not a good captin but heart goes along way and stevie has got the biggest one ive ever seen.And as for 2006 stevie was our best player against the oilers at the end of his career.

#71 micah

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 01:52 PM

QUOTE (egroen @ August 21, 2009 - 01:37PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Chelios would not carry the same weight well into his 40s that he did a decade(s) ago. I do not think he would have been as effective or taken as seriously. I also think he enjoys being "one of the guys" nowadays moreso than he would welcome the responsibilities of a captain.
Datsyuk has the whole language barrier problem -- which is a significant problem for your captain.
Zetterberg in 2007 really had not "earned his chops" yet -- Tough to be a captain on a team with dozens of Stanley Cup rings without even having one yourself.

The most realistic option would have been Shanahan -- and well, I think they made the right choice. Ultimately it is tough to argue with actual results.


I don't see Shanahan as great captain material, I see him as a schmuck. I like him as a player, but he sucks as a man. I wouldn't respect the guy.

I think Chelios could have and would have been a great Captain. I think that he is enough of a dick that he has the ability to keep refs from blowing the whistle on a borderline call, just because they don't want to hear from him.

I have no oppinion on whether Dats or Zetterburg would have been good or bad captains.

It is tough to argue with results, but we have to define what the results are results of. I'm not convinced that the Wings would have been any less succesful if Lids wore no letter - and if that's the case, he can't be a great Captain. You disagree, and that's fine, you have your reasons. I think Lidstrom is a status-quo interim Captain. Well respected, good enough to man the helm until someone else shows up. Hey, maybe Helm!
"It was pretty interesting," said Detroit coach Mike Babcock. "We had May in exhibition for a couple of games and no one gets hacked or whacked. When we don't have him, we get run. We don't have a team that twists off helmets at stoppages. You get tired of seeing it all the time. It's just nice when you get someone to look after that stuff."

#72 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 01:53 PM

QUOTE (GORM19 @ August 21, 2009 - 01:46PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree with this point 100% plus stevie played with injuries that know one else could, lidstrom included while still blocking shots and scoring on top of that .stevie played almost half his career with these injuries but they got worse in 2002 and he still managed to bring us to the cup.Lidstrom has never had to deal with these kinds of issues.I am not saying nick is not a good captin but heart goes along way and stevie has got the biggest one ive ever seen.And as for 2006 stevie was our best player against the oilers at the end of his career.

Stevie's heart is unrivaled by anyone in my mind as well, but no one is debating that.
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#73 mmamolo

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 01:55 PM

QUOTE (micah @ August 21, 2009 - 02:30PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If Lidstrom can mannage 10 years Captaining a great team, I'll concede that he just might be a great captain - even though he was handed an already great team.


I dont think that's realyl a fair comparison. Lidstrom wasn't handed an already great team. He was part of an already great team. It's not really fair to either Yzerman or Lidstrom to compare them as captains. Both had very different situations, with different ppl around them, and in different eras of the league. During Yzerman's time (a lot of it) we had poor coaches and management. But then when things turned around we bought and traded and signed the best players in the league. During Lidstrom's time, the cap was introduced and we were forced to get more out of fewer all star players.

Both Yzerman and Lidstrom have proven to be great captains in my opinion, each for different reasons. I dont think you can ever really compare the two with each other, or anyone else, because situations are never the same. You should be determining if someone is a good captain based on his own merit and how you feel he handles certain situations for himself. You shouldnt think how would Yzernman have handled a SC hangover at the beginning of the 08/09 season.

They're different guys, with different teammates, with different coaches, different scenarios, different eras. It's pointless to try and compare apples with oranges.
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#74 micah

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 02:00 PM

QUOTE (mmamolo @ August 21, 2009 - 01:55PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They're different guys, with different teammates, with different coaches, different scenarios, different eras. It's pointless to try and compare apples with oranges.


You are absolutely right, hence my questioning what ills would have befallen the team had someone else been given the C that Lids wears.
"It was pretty interesting," said Detroit coach Mike Babcock. "We had May in exhibition for a couple of games and no one gets hacked or whacked. When we don't have him, we get run. We don't have a team that twists off helmets at stoppages. You get tired of seeing it all the time. It's just nice when you get someone to look after that stuff."

#75 mmamolo

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 02:09 PM

QUOTE (micah @ August 21, 2009 - 03:00PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You are absolutely right, hence my questioning what ills would have befallen the team had someone else been given the C that Lids wears.


Persaonlly I think it's a lot harder to stay on top than ppl sometime's think. I think Lidstrom had the experience, the intelligence and poise to lead this team coming out of the cap. Not only that but he was also the guy who made the most sense. At the time Zetterberg, Datsyuk and co. weren't near ready. You could make arguments for Chelios and guys like that but Nic was rewarded for being a homegrown talent, a guy who puts his team first and a guy who as been through all the ups and down and rigors with this franchise. You can call him an interim captain if you'd like and it's true that if he retires in say two or even three years a 5 or 6 year captaincy isn't that long relative to Yzerman's tenure but I think Lidstrom's captaincy will be remembered for two main contributions.

1. Taking over for Yzerman and keeping the team very succesful now in the cap world where we can no longer spend liek crazy in the offseason. Three straight trips to the conference finals or better is not an easy feat no matter who is on your team.

2. Grooming us for the future. Lidstrom is here to not only groom our young defensemen like he did with Kronwall and is now going to do with Ericsson but he's also groomed Zetterberg and Datsyuk. There are a lot of characteristics that I think they at least in part learned from the way Lidstrom leads this team. When the captaincy is ready to be handed over to Zetterberg (most likely) he'll be ready because of what he has learned fro mLidstrom, just as Lidstrom was ready because of what he learned from Yzerman. Plus I think it's important to think of the effect Lidstrom had on leading all of his fellow swedes on this team.


To answer your question directly, I dont think the captaincy is somethign to be given to a guy on a short term period (like a chelios or someone three years ago). I think it shoudl go to someone who has been there a long time and hopefulyl deserves it and will stay a while and be effective. I think any of the other possible choices three years ago weren't ready. I dont think they, or the team, would have had the poise and experience to handle three straight deep playoff runs.

Edited by mmamolo, 21 August 2009 - 02:11 PM.

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#76 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 02:09 PM

QUOTE (micah @ August 21, 2009 - 02:00PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You are absolutely right, hence my questioning what ills would have befallen the team had someone else been given the C that Lids wears.

I can't re-state the same thing over-and-over again.


It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#77 mmamolo

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 02:12 PM

QUOTE (NeverForgetMac25 @ August 21, 2009 - 03:09PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I can't restate the same thing over-and-over again.



Thats f***in funny
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#78 micah

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 02:20 PM

QUOTE (NeverForgetMac25 @ August 21, 2009 - 02:09PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I can't re-state the same thing over-and-over again.



I know, you said it once, and I agree with you.

QUOTE (NeverForgetMac25 @ August 21, 2009 - 12:53PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not saying they wouldn't have won as much had Z, Dats, etc been captain instead of Lidstrom.....



"It was pretty interesting," said Detroit coach Mike Babcock. "We had May in exhibition for a couple of games and no one gets hacked or whacked. When we don't have him, we get run. We don't have a team that twists off helmets at stoppages. You get tired of seeing it all the time. It's just nice when you get someone to look after that stuff."

#79 NeverForgetMac25

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 02:34 PM

QUOTE (micah @ August 21, 2009 - 02:20PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know, you said it once, and I agree with you.

Saying they may have won as much doesn't make Lidstrom less great of a Captain. This is what you're failing to see.

Sidenote: How convenient of you to edit out the remainder of my sentence. It should read, "I'm not saying they wouldn't have won as much had Z, Dats, etc been captain instead of Lidstrom, but that doesn't diminish the fact that he's been a great captain." Not to mention the remainder of that post.
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#80 awingsincebirth

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Posted 21 August 2009 - 02:36 PM

QUOTE (micah @ August 21, 2009 - 03:00PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You are absolutely right, hence my questioning what ills would have befallen the team had someone else been given the C that Lids wears.

My problem with this argument is not necessarily your side, but the premise of the whole argument in general. I view the appointment of the C to be a more organic thing. You're asking what we think would happen if someone else were captain, while I honestly think that could never be the case. Lidstrom is the Captain because of what he has done and who he as been for this team. Because of this, regardless of who has a C arbitrarily sewn to their jersey, you know which of the warriors the rest of the team will look up to when the game is on the line. Nick, alone, is the logical Captain of this team and will remain as such until he retires.

I don't know if I am making any sense or just blabbering nonsensically.

Although, I do feel the way that Babs seems to swoon about Nik in the press (and has pretty much ever since he got here) seems to indicate to me that Nik is doing an alright job as a leader inside the lockerroom, in addition to where we all know he is one of the best leaders in the game; on the ice.

"I can taste another long run," Lidstrom said. "I can feel it in this room. The guys are getting that focused look in their eyes."





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